Jaskier

I had to re-read the warscroll to understand your comment about the forced decision thing, and I've only now just read they have to switch abilities each battle round. That's a bummer, because if that rule wasn't there you'd just slap the 5++ on all the time and buff them with a Lord of Pain (who you'd be running if you have any Myrmidesh or Twinsouls regardless) once they hit combat - it's still workable because you have to switch it in your hero phase (so i.e. you can keep the 5++ through an opponents' double turn) but it obviously requires a lot of forethought on what order you want the abilities to trigger in. That definitely changes my perspective on the unit, because there was no question they were a better choice with a permanent 5++ under current points. I'm glad you made me go check the warscroll, because now I feel much better about sticking to my original guns and building them as Myrmidesh. I will say though that the Chosen comparison was more to do with the role of the unit. The problem with Chosen is that, compared to Chaos Warriors, you actually lose durability (no 5++, no re-rolls in bigger units) and you pay for improved combat stats that are handicapped by the 32mm bases and 1" range, so you really don't want to run them in sizes any bigger than 10 - and 10 is already a stretch. Symbaresh actually get around both of those problems thanks to their 2" range and 5++, but obviously the 5++ only being active on certain turns isn't as big a help as I previously thought. As to how common Chosen are, if I recall correctly I saw them in a Plaguetouched list that did very well at the last Cancon, but I couldn't tell you otherwise because I've not been monitoring the tournament scene since COVID hit. As noted, I pointed out how once Myrmidesh get a decent cut they'll be better Chaos Warriors, especially in small units because they likely won't get attention of the kind they can't deal with. Most opponents will see a unit of 5 Myrmidesh and not want to dedicate mortal wounds or high Rend to killing them which is perfect for us because that's what they fall to. I can see blocks of 10 working really well in Lurid Haze too, as a 3+ re-rollable significantly increases their odds of surviving against Rend -2.

I really want to build my two Myrmidesh/Twinsouls kits as Myrmidesh, mostly for the aesthetics but also just having a unit that can potentially crack 2+/3+ saves, but Twinsouls really are just better in pretty much every way - more damage against almost every save bracket, more speed, and more durability (unless you get +1 save from Lurid Haze, Myrmidesh only have the edge against Rend 0/-1 and only when in combat.) Is there any good reason I should build Myrmidesh over just building Twinsouls with Myrmidesh heads? My honest thoughts are that down the line, after some good points drops, Myrmidesh will replace Chaos Warriors as our 5-strong speedbumps/objective holders because of the always-on re-rolls, while Twinsouls will be our version of Chosen that works really well in big squads thanks to the 2" reach. With points the way they are, you can't really run Myrmidesh as speedbump units as they're at least 30 points too expensive for that role, but at least Twinsouls still function well as a hammer unit currently.

Do we know when Blissbarbs are getting added in to Warscroll Builder?

Just want to chime in and say that while Syll'Esskan Host does start with the most CPs, a proper Invaders list will generate way more CP over the course of the game if you can keep your Hog/Rod users alive. CPs are pretty much the main appeal of Invaders, after all! I do hope Syll'Esskan Host gets FAQ'd, if only because I think it'd be a shame to introduce mortals only to leave the mortal-centric host by the wayside.

Yeah that's where I'm leaning as well, so many lists can just auto unbind and ruin your day on the few occasions you do get it off. It's a shame because it's definitely one of the best spell buffs in the game.

Is anyone else struggling to decide between the Iron Circlet and the Shadow Stone in a Hagg Narr build? I feel like getting Mindrazor off is more important than ever, but ensuring Blessing of Khaine is up is probably still more important with how deadly everything is in AoS nowadays.

Oh, I'm not saying it's bad or necessarily even worse on its own merits, but given we aren't being pigeon-holed into spamming heroes to the same extent, and Sybarites' ability isn't that reliable unless you take 4+ heroes, I'm pretty certain it's not going to be as prolific as it used to be now that we can actually take competitive lists with real mass outside the leader slots. I certaintly won't be using it nearly as much because I'll spending 1400+ points on units, not 1400+ points on leaders! As for affordability and utility, I'd personally rate Seeker Cavalcade higher just as a matter of principle; abusing 6" pile-ins and figuring out all the crazy ways to game them is always a blast

I can't see Sybarites being nearly as popular as it was for obvious reasons, but Invaders alone is still a great way to generate CPs. I see Glory Hog and the Rod of Misrule as auto-takes if you play Invaders (unless you play Lurid Haze of course.)

@swarmofseals summoning 90 Daemonettes? Yowza. Thanks for the report!

Them being so cheap makes it so easy to work them into our lists, take the battalions they're part of and fit in even more stuff. They could be more elite but I'm perfectly content with them remaining as inexpensive ambushers because they do a damn good job of it. Besides, Lifetakers are more than fine in units of 10; with a 14" flying move and the usual pile-ins, getting most of them into striking range shouldn't be too difficult in most cases. The other appeal to them is that 4+ roll for a free move after striking; if they can launch out and blow up something pricier than themselves, and then block movement in their opponents turn (or do it again in your subsequent double turn) then that's even better. Not something to bet on but it can be a really important bit of extra mileage.

Doomfire Warlocks seem really darn good to me. They're a wizard with a built-in +1 to cast and unbind, are incredibly fast, are more efficient defensively than most of the other units in the book, and offensively actually don't compare badly at all even to Witch Aelves before accounting for cross-unit synergies. Where they obviously fall down a bit is that our buffs are better suited to bigger units with smaller base sizes; getting 30 Witch Aelves within 1" is much easier than getting 15 Warlocks within 1" (though obviously being over twice as fast helps alleviate that) with the other very minor issue being we can't really buff their ranged profile. They also can't be Battleline which is a strong consideration for list building nowadays with regards to particular missions. Still, if you can make the most out of that 14" move to get as many of them in combat as possible, they're every bit as good a target for Mindrazor/Witchbrew/Catechism/etc as our other units - if not better - because of their 4 attacks per model and innate Rend on their blades. The ranged weapon also shouldn't be undersold; it's short ranged but can easily mince weaker/smaller screens which a Witch horde couldn't do on its own. There's also the consideration of just how good they are in Hagg Narr to surround a Cauldron; they can even give themselves Mystic Shield for that extra bit of tankiness. Definitely a unit I'm very interested in now for competitive lists (whereas before I always thought they were just decent) more choice is a great thing and that's easily the defining aspect of this new book for me so far.

The discussion in here has really turned toxic, hasn't it? That's disappointing to see, especially given how excited so many here - me included - are for the new tome. For a change of pace, here's what I'm thinking of taking to an event in a few weeks; Hagg Narr Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood - General, Devoted Disciple, The Ulfuri, Crimson Rejuvenation - 270 Bloodwrack Medusa - Shadow Stone, Mindrazor - 100 Hag Queen - Blessing of Khaine - 90 Morgwaeth - Catechism of Murder - 80 30 Witch Aelves - 300 30 Witch Aelves - 300 10 Sisters of Slaughter - 120 10 Blood Stalkers - 280 9 Shadowstalkers - 100 10 Khinerai Lifetakers - 160 5 Khinerai Lifetakers - 80 Cauldron Guard - 120 2000/2000 It's a whole bunch of stuff I've owned for a while but not had a chance to use since the pandemic hit, so I'm hoping to get a feel of how everything works and go from there. Compared to my old Hagg Narr lists, it's got a lot of extra bodies and flexibility - those points drops really helped me fit all those new toys like Shadowstalkers in! I'm taking the Shadow Stone instead of the Iron Circlet for the first time in years as I'm really excited to see how the new Mindrazor works in practice. I'll probably run a different prayer on the Slaughter Queen on the day, the heal is nifty but not really my ideal choice, however I'm not sure what to replace it with.

Exactly; they're more than twice as good in combat than they used to be because they got rid of the silly split activation which made them a horrible target for Excess of Violence. Now with the new Locus they can easily get their new +1 to hit and wound and just smack things silly with all their attacks twice over. I'm over the moon with their changes. @Rivener those units also don't get Euphoric Killers, Locus or any of the amazing Hedonite-keyword synergies in the book. Ergo, yes, they can overprice certain units relative to others because not doing so would lead to obvious imbalances once supporting abilities and allegiance rules are taken into account. Chaos Warriors are the tankiest unit we can get for the points, but they also have horrible damage output. They're good for DP generation (I'm running at least 15 in many of my lists) and filling an anvil role, but at some point you still have to kill stuff and our Hedonite units all do it much better for the points. This is why diverse lists - which are anathema to our old book - will be key, and why focusing on synergies when building your list is critical. Syll'Esske for example goes from a poor to a great choice depending on how you structure your list.

Glad to see some here are waking up to how useful Syll'Esske is now. An 18" Battleshock immunity bubble is pretty much tailor made for mortal-heavy lists, particularly for Slickblades. The tournament build I'm planning out features them in Invaders (the best place by far to play Syll'Esske) with a CP farm (Rod of Misrule + Glory Hog) to fund theirs and a Keepers' command abilities. Also, yes, can we please hold off on sending rules feedback about an army none of us have actually played any proper games or really got to grips with yet? If the people who complained about Seraphon and KO at release (and before you try to change history, there were loads) did the same, what kind of message would that have sent to GW? Look where those armies are now. Our faction mechanics have been completely redesigned, and our units are obviously priced with the summoning changes in mind. Summoning is Slaanesh' main mechanic, whether we like it or not, so trying to argue that our units shouldn't be priced with it in mind is just foolhardy. You want my advice, having seen this kind of pessimism for every single new book GW has released for the past 10 years I've been playing competitively? Wait. Play a bunch of games. Try things. You'll find - as is almost always the case - that most of your pessimism is unjustified.

Those 30 Daemonettes are also much slower, don't provide double pile-ins for the rest of your army, aren't two cast/unbind spellcasters, can't easily self-heal, can't use generic command abilities, don't provide the awesome new Locus ability, carry artifacts, use command traits, etc. Directly comparing heroes to units based purely on offensive and defensive efficiencies simply does not work in practice. For my 3x5 Slickblade lists, a Keeper is nigh mandatory because not only is it one of the few heroes that can keep up with them to provide them Inspiring Presence or Locus support, Excess of Violence is by far the strongest support ability available to Hedonites, and keeping that Locus around is itself another form of protection for both the Keeper and any Slickblades that charge in alongside it.

This is what I'm looking at running for a GT in the near future; Invaders Keeper of Secrets - Icon of Infinite Excess, Progeny of Damnation - 340 Syll'Esske - Invaders General, Born of Damnation - 200 Infernal Enrapturess - Invaders General, Glory Hog, Rod of Misrule - 150 Chaos Warriors (20) - 360 Chaos Warriors (5) - 90 Chaos Warriors (5) - 90 Slickblade Seekers (5) - 200 Slickblade Seekers (5) - 200 Slickblade Seekers (5) - 200 Seeker Cavalcade - 140 Quicksilver Swords - 30 2000/2000 Syll'Esske's re-roll aura isn't affected by Chaos Warriors, so I've actually got an even number of units to trigger it - in practice, the Enrapturess will likely fall out of range pretty quickly, so in that case I can just move one of the Slickblade units out of range so everyone else can benefit. I purposefully didn't make the Keeper my third general so that her and Syll'Esske can go together without issue (and so that Syll'Esske will get to benefit from Excess of Violence now that they're actually a good recipient for it!) The main reason Syll'Esske is in the list otherwise is for their incredible 18" battleshock immunity command ability, which is perfect for Slickblade Seekers and should save me a boat load of CP in the long run so that my CP farm can be put to good use on double pile-ins and so on. The general plan is that the Chaos Warrior anvil escorts Syll'Esske and act as my big objective grabbing blob - new Depravity suits them to a tee because they're super tough and not very killy - while the two smaller units do what cheap Battleline do and screen or camp objectives. The Slickblades are my hammer units that will be running around with the Keeper, with the idea being that my first 'charge' - i.e. 6" pile-in to ensure they all get to fight first - is buoyed by Syll'Esske's re-roll 1s aura and the +1 to-hit from the Icon. In theory they will form a super mobile, super elusive, decently beefy and fairly hard hitting bruiser squad that can pull some crazy shenanigans with the combination of the Keeper using her Locus and their own 6" pile-ins (which will allow for effective retreats into new combats!) The Enrapturess is my Depravity and Command Point farmer that will stay happily out of the way of everything else and guard the Fane, meaning she'll ideally be giving me 2DP and 2CP each turn - if she gets focused down, that's attention that isn't going to the Keeper or Syll'Esske. I've also got the Quicksilver Swords as a long-ranged mortal wound source to hopefully sneak a few extra Depravity points here and there. The superior alternative is of course the Geminids, but it would mean cutting down the 20 blob to 15 models, which, while I don't mind, would leave me with 60 points spare and not a whole lot to spend them on - I guess an extra CP would be fine? On second thought, sacrificing 5 Warriors to upgrade the Quicksilver Swords to Geminids and get an extra CP is probably the better option. Anywho... Dunno how strong the list will be in practice, but it sounds like a lot of fun to me on paper; extremely mobile and plenty tough. It has 148 wounds in it, count 'em, 148 in a Slaanesh list. For reference, my typical Slaanesh lists with the old book were around the 80-90 wound mark!

Yeah fair enough, I figured that's all it was. Thanks! Did another read through of the rules now that the reviews are up, and I am really glad I re-read Syll'Esske's Deadly Symbiosis rule. My first reaction to that particular change was "LAME!" because I somehow misread it as only affecting Mortal Hedonites (I was working on 3 hours sleep, leave me alone!) but knowing now it still affects all Hedonites (but not all Slaanesh, predictably) is very nice. So here's the thing; I rarely minded spending the CP to give an 18" re-roll hit rolls of 1 bubble, because that's an amazing command ability. Changing it to an ability with a gimmicky activation clause rubbed me the wrong way initially, especially considering the kinds of lists I want to run...until I read that it only forces you to count Mortal Hedonites and Daemon Hedonites. That means all those Chaos Warriors I plan on using to fill my Battleline slots don't count toward it, which works out perfectly given the lists I'm working up have a heavy mortal slant but not a heavy Hedonite mortal slant. It also means that even if your army starts off comprised mostly of mortals, losing said units and/or summoning daemons will help shift the balance, and you can purposefully move your units so you can get the benefit - even if it's just having Syll'Esske in range of a big unit of Slickblades! The only real problem now is the wholly within requirements and having no set activation point; this means you could have an even split, but if one unit in the bubble is destroyed it would block the ability. Given how strong of an ability it is and considering it used to cost a CP, I understand it having those activation clauses; it's not as restrictive or hard to work around as I initially thought. I'm also stoked about the changes to how they attack. Old Syll'Esske forced you to attack with one profile, then attack with the other at the end of the phase (a lot of people probably never noticed the end of the phase part) but gain re-rolls to hit on the second activation. This meant they got very little benefit from a Keepers' command ability, and their split activation meant their actual fighting prowess wasn't really worth the price of admission. Now it's a different story. No more split activation, but they get an enormous damage buff if they survive attacks that include any rolled 1s to-hit, and they now fully benefit from Excess of Violence! With the new Locus rules, triggering their revenge rule should be fairly safe to pull off (dependent on opponents' dice rolls, of course) and if you can set it up so that they are attacked prior to piling in at all, you can get potentially two pile-ins with +1 to-hit and +1 to-wound on all their attacks. That's nuts. Finally, while their command ability still requires them to be the General and thus you'll pretty much only see them in Invaders builds as usual (assuming Syll'Esskan Host isn't updated) there's one big difference; in the old tome, a giant 18" battleshock immunity bubble wasn't really worth much because the playstyle of the army encouraged small units and big monsters. The rub here is that the new Depravity system keys off units that haven't been wiped out by the end of the Battleshock phase. All those cool new mortal units have low or mediocre Bravery. Syll'Esske absolves that problem, and thus has incredible synergy with our summoning mechanic. You also won't be spending as many command points in the preceding fight phase now that their re-roll buff (which was their best attribute before) is now just a regular ability. Subvert is also as awesome as ever, and Born of Damnation got an enormous buff and is the perfect lore spell for a 9 wound hero like them to have. I know Syll'Esske has never really caught on with most Slaanesh players - at my most recent tournament a few months back, all three of my opponents were clueless to what they do, and one of those players is a former GT winner who has played against Slaanesh dozens of times - but as someone who has run Syll'Esske in 2 GTs and plenty of smaller events, I'm absolutely stoked and encourage you all to give them a look if you do plan on adding any of the new mortals to your collection.

I saw comments earlier talking about denying Depravity points on turn one, but I don't understand exactly how - what am I missing? Is it just your opponent choosing not to attack your units on their first turn/playing keep away on yours?

Yeah I edited my post to clarify, but I'm perfectly happy with the direction they went, even if it obviously isn't ideal for Slaves-centric Slaanesh lists. Slaanesh has the only summoning mechanic that is directly tied to how efficient a unit is in terms of both defense and offense (because unlike Khorne, the units need to survive harmed, not be destroyed) which means you could feasibly get into a situation where the Slaves units end up being too good in a Hedonites list despite remaining mediocre elsewhere, i.e. the Grimghast Reaper effect, which would necessitate either changes to the Slaves units themselves (which would adversely affect all the other factions that can use them) or the Slaanesh mechanics (which would adversely affect Slaanesh lists that don't use them.) They did the right thing.

Euphoric Killers is Hedonites only, and quite a few other buffs were changed to only affect Hedonites (such as those provided by Syll'Esske.) It sucks, no doubt, but I can see why they did it - they priced all the units in the book with Depravity in mind, whereas Slaves units obviously can't be because they're accessible by four (or more?) other factions. They made sure the units in this book got all the attention in the form of synergies and buffs to compensate.

Bloodwracks are incredible. That is all.

Agreed. The comments in here dissing Slickblades are super confusing to me. They're easily the best cavalry unit in the book - especially in Seeker Cavalcade - and I personally don't think any of our cavalry options are bad overall. In a meta with lots of mortal wounds and high Rend, them having 4 Wounds is actually preferable to having less Wounds and a 4+ save. I'm absolutely certain a lot of people aren't catching on to the fact Slickblades and Myrmidesh do mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.

Remember that they also have Rend -1 and do mortal wounds on 6s to-wound in addition to normal damage. The initial reaction here and elsewhere (moreso elsewhere) isn't surprising to me in the slightest. These units are all priced because of how the new Depravity system works; that's why we've seen Keepers get a major points drop, and small heroes get a points bump. If you look at those changes in the context of the old book, of course they don't make sense because our old book encouraged one very specific playstyle and type of unit. Once people start to understand that everything - particularly our ranged units - have been priced with the new Depravity system in mind, they'll come around to just how good this book actually is. Something I've already noted is that both our healing spells are massively improved, becoming easier to cast and getting an improvement (in Born's case) and our Greater Daemons now have access to a spell that lets them fly. The classic Seeker Cavalcade battalion is about to get a new lease on life thanks to the addition of Slickblade Seekers who, for 50-60 (depending on the variant) points more than Hellstriders, are much tankier and hit way harder (again, like the Myrmidesh, those attacks do mortal wounds in addition to normal damage!) and thus are going to be an absolute nightmare for opponents when they start pulling all the crazy 6" pile-in shenanigans (which also means, on our turns, they will always fight first no matter what.) Slickblades are going to be incredibly popular once people figure this out, mark my words. Myrmidesh and Twinsouls might not look great compared to Chaos Warriors, but the better comparison is actually to Chosen. They are tougher or punchier than Chosen, and have access to a far greater suite of potential buffs - but don't buff other units, of course. Myrmidesh are better than Chaos Warriors in small units because they retain their re-rolls, whereas Twinsouls are better in bigger units thanks to their 2" reach. 10 Twinsouls with a Lord of Pain is one of those no-brainer choices that will do very well; don't underestimate their lack of Rend or mortal wounds, because if you compare them to Myrmidesh who have both those abilities, the Twinsouls hit harder against every save bracket except the 2+ and will benefit more from other buffs. Slaangors aren't great, yes, but they're workable. That's still a fair bit of damage on the charge from a unit with a small footprint, an advantage a lot of players really underestimate. Sigvald looks overpriced next to Eltharion, sure, but Eltharion doesn't ignore after-saves - which alone means Sigvald acts as a spoiler choice for certain units/armies in the game (like the newly updated Daughters of Khaine!) - nor does he generate summoning points or exist in an army that can easily heal lost wounds like Sigvald does. Blissbarb are priced in a way that discourages spamming them to farm Depravity; our melee options are more efficient, but lack the means to generate those summoning points from afar - that's what we call a fair trade-off! Glutos also looks like a very interesting centrepiece model, with a command ability that has special synergies with other big monsters. The Shardspeaker is pricey, but consider that her +1 to-wound buff is one of the absolute best buffs a Slaanesh army could get, and -1 to-wound is still one of the best debuffs around. If she's casting, she's worth her points; even if she isn't, that buff of hers is still worth the price of admission. Our daemons also came out looking strong. Yes, those small heroes - especially the chariots - got price hikes, but consider the new rules surrounding them. Improved spells. More units for them to buff now that heroes aren't the bread and butter anymore. Heck, an actual place in the army now that Keepers aren't the be-all end-all! Exalted Chariots in particular were absolutely needing a points increase; consider that their insane mortal wound generation did not generate Depravity in the old book, but it does now...and those abilities target multiple units. Side-note; Exalted Chariots come on massive bases. Mmm. What about Keepers, then? Oh yes, they can't target themselves anymore. They also got a lot cheaper, and are possibly even easier to summon than before...and you will actually be running things that aren't Keepers now, so they'll actually have units to buff beyond themselves for a change. They will also have a far easier time healing themselves thanks to the spell changes, and can now freely take a spell that lets them fly. Who needs a Thermalrider Cloak, anyway? Seekers and Daemonettes remain solid options, with Seekers priced reflective of their incredible mobility and potential to alpha strike. Fiends now finally have a place with the Depravity changes; they can be tough to shift once they reach combat but will most certainly be bleeding wounds, and hit quite hard relative to their points. They fit the new summoning generation to a tee, and happen to be a strong alternative to a Keeper - they always were in a sense, but the old books' focus on heroes rendered them irrelevant; not so anymore! Lastly, one thing I've not seen mentioned is the change to the Fane. Yes, chain summoning is gone, and that sucks; I've won a fair few GT games with it, but I can also admit it was stupid and needed to go. On that note, we got one really good change in that regard; you can now summon Daemons directly from the Fane! You don't get a 'refund' anymore, but the fact remains that you no longer need a living hero to spend your Depravity points. Gone are the days when you have to hide a hero in a backfield position just for the chance to summon your reinforcements, as are the days when your last hero fails that crucial save and renders all those Depravity points worthless. Of course the Fane can be zoned out, but hey, that's still much better than before, particularly as we don't need (or necessarily want) to invest as much into heroes as we used to. The new buff it gives works out really well once you remember that Slaanesh has perhaps the most widespread access to re-roll 1s to-hit in the game. Overall, there's a lot to be excited about. I feel this is a strong book that crucially will give us the diversity everyone has been craving. Many of these units are untested and unproven, and I don't just mean the new ones; Fiends, Seekers and more never really got the chance to shine in the old book because of its pinpoint focus on heroes and heroes alone. That's all changed, so before you come in and cry foul about how weak or even how overpowered the army might seem, remember that this book has opened up a whole new world of possibilities, and will play almost nothing like the old book unless you want it to.

Symbaresh are pretty much exactly what I thought they'd be, but the lack of Rend is a surprise - that and they appear to lack a variation of the rule their kit siblings ended up getting, oddly enough. Myrmidesh doing mortal wounds on 6s to wound is a nice bonus, but we really need to see their core stats and if they can negate wounds like Vasillac.

I'm not sure about Wrath of the Everchosen, but Syll'Esskan Host definitely doesn't function without an Errata.