[AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion]

14 hours ago, Floom said:

The Warscroll Builder isn't anything close to an accurate representation of the rules. There isn't even a validity check that the Azyr app has. Sounds comical to me. 

What kind of validity check do you need? It states in the top if you have too few battleline units or too many heroes/artefacts etc.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

<Snip>

I think Ironjawz has a real good chance against Slaanesh, at least a much better chance than most other combat forces simply due to Smashing and Bashing and Ironsunz ability to charge in after the Locus of Diversion has been resolved. I'm pretty sure a Maw Krusha can pound the Keeper into the dirt, if you manage to do the Ironsunz trick or wipe another unit and cause SnB. Alternatively it might be worth giving your Maw Krusha the doppelgangers cloak to deny him hitting you first - That's how other melee armies usually combat the Keeper or Terrorgeist.

It sounds like you are just tired of your green boyz. The book is at its all time high in terms of its choices, options and power (one round of like +10 Waaagh stacks from the previous book is hard to beat, but before it was wet noodle for the entire game, only to punch real hard for 1 turn, and then back to useless, compared to now where you are a massive threat from turn 1 = Thats a plus in my book). The army was super monotone previously, so I don't get why you got more tired of the army now.

In regards to your specific game against Slaanesh, it obviously doesn't help the case that he high rolls and insta-kills your dude. In general you can't expect much from the game at much smaller point battles. This is also why I just love GGs or the Maw Krusha over Brutes/Megaboss on foot (at least without the Bloodtoffs teleport) - They are MUCH faster which means you can avoid a lot of magic. You can simply outrange it, then MD across the board and smash into a weak spot, instead of slowly creeping up the board and leaving your dudes vulnerable to magic.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

6 hours ago, Newtype_Zero said:

What? The Pitched Battle profile pretty clearly says "Battleline in Ironjawz or Big Waaagh! army if unit has 10 or models." What is ambiguous about that? It's most likely an error on WSB's part as the book and Azyr don't recognize units of 5 as Battleline for either army.

Yeah I dont see how that is ambiguous at all. I read it as the condition for being battleline in the 2 specific alligiances is if you have 10 or more models.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

7 hours ago, TALegion said:

So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, we're still able to bring and use the bannerboss in IJ and Big Waaagh lists? Of course we can't stack Waaaghs now, but that's much better than the alternative of not being able to bring the boss at all. It might still have potential if you stick it with a couple units of ardboyz, brutes, and WCs moving up the board.

You cant bring him in an Ironjawz alligiance list, only Big Waaagh.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

So the FAQ didnt eliminate Greenskinz from the Big Waaagh and didnt nerf the Orruk Warboss. I guess you will always take this dude since you wont have to suffer a cut in your points and risk losing the bonuses the following turn. 

Now it opens the question - Can you stack it with the Big Waaagh ability for +2 attacks in 1 round? The warscroll ability isnt the same ability, and it only mentions a model cant benefit twice from the warscroll Waaagh.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

The Realmgate gives no benefit outside of the alligiance ability, and there is no way of disabling the bonus. Hence why we just house rule at our local that I get the bonus by default. Tbh this should just be the standard way of doing it - Ignore the Realmgate requirement.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

9 hours ago, broche said:

what i do is I glue the weapon really lightly so it's not to painful to switch. lot less work than magnetise, and you can switch without much problem each 6month-year or so

At first I wasn't fan of the idea of magnetizing Warhammer models, but after getting models with multiple loadouts I figured why not give it a shot.

Oh boy it is really easy! You just drill a little bit in the arm and in the hand and glue a magnet in each (Make sure you faced them the right way). There you go, now you can freely switch. It isn't some kind of a proceedure a surgeon is required for.

With a little tinkering it is easily done with Gore-Gruntas too. I haven't done it with my Brutes because I don't ever foresee me using huge units with the 2" range weapons.

[AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion]

1 minute ago, hurben said:

So it would be the same for spells, right? Because it negates wounds but not mortal wounds? 

Spells should be different, but it depends on the specific spell. Arcane Bolt as an example is a direct damaging spell, so it is caused by the caster. It also generated Depravity Points.

You should see Endless Spells as an independent unit that is summoned onto the table, and then that unit deals damage.

[AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion]

21 minutes ago, hurben said:

"In addition, any ability that negates wounds has no effect on wounds inflicted by a DRAKKFOOT unit."

I would consider it counts. Endless spell is automatically casted by a DRAKKFOOT unit.
Now it depends if we take the unit or the endless spell keywords ^^

Based on the rulings of Slaanesh and their Depravity Point generation, I would say no.

The arguement was that endless spells are their own thing - It is a caster that summons a unit  and he doesn't deal any damage himself. Therefore it isn't inflicted by a Drakkfoot unit.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

14 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I think the term I would use for the Waaagh! is "mediocre" so sacrificing it for a good reason isn't terrible. In this case, with that list, you would be using run a lot to increase mobility. Also don't forget the free d6 move per phase, that actually really adds up if used properly. The cheesiest example of this is taking a damned for the RR1's and d6 move in the hero phase then moving next to deadly, pulling the 1/6, then moving another d6". That's a potentially free 12" on your movement, sure it's much more likely to be an extra 3/4" but that takes you from movement 4" to movement 7" which is quite respectable.

We had Commanding on one side of the table and Damned on the other. I decided to go for the Damned and placed Big G ontop, it was a great first round of combat for him.

I don't think Waaagh is mediocre at all. If you look at 10 Ardboyz having 2 attacks at 1 damage. If you add +1 damage you double their output, if you then Waagh for +1 attack you increase it by another 50%. Adding +1 damage and +1 attack on Ardboyz is effectively the same as giving them 4 extra attacks from the old Waaagh stacking. If you somehow manage to get the +2 Waaagh you effectively give them what 6 extra attacks from the old Waaagh stacking used to be. I think this is VERY strong considering you only spent 1 CP (Sure, it is 1 time per game only) and 1 "free" ability from a Warchanter, as opposed to blowing your entire load on one turn prior to the new book.

I'm much more a fan of the current setup where you can have one power turn but still have great output the following rounds. Waaagh isn't the nuclear button it used to be where it was deciding if you won or lost. It is a button to press when you want a little more oompf in one round to delete something important.

[Speculation: Will AOS ever be balanced or is this as good as it gets?]

How exactly do you want the balance in AOS? Not only is there a big disparity between armies, but there is also a HUGE issue with internal balance in multiple armies. Look at Daughters of Kaine, there is a reason why everyone goes for Hagnar and mass Witch Elves. It isn't just the aesthetics of the units, it is because every other list isn't anywhere close to the powerhouse of Hagnar.

This applies to Slaanesh too - If you don't go for Keepers but field mass Fiends, you wont experience the same results at all. This is likely the case for every single army. So an "OP" army can be rather poop if you don't finetune it and go for "rule of cool" when building your list. Should every army be balanced against each other based on 1 finetuned list? You are likely in a situation where you might as well cut 50% of the warscrolls because very few would buy them. Should every warscroll within an army be close to identical? In that case it kinda loses its meaning in my eyes. Almost doesn't matter what you field and listbuilding becomes moot.

This is something we often talk about in my local too, and the outcome is usually that you should build your list based on your opponent. As a former Slaanesh player, there is a huge difference how I would build my list vs Beasts of Chaos with random monsters and vs a finetuned FEC list. I wouldn't field the same models against both opponents because against Beasts of Chaos it would be over by turn 1.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

<Snip>

Yeah I don't doubt the list have some juicy damage rolling when buffed up, but my issue is still the mobility. Also, no sane person has 40 Brutes, lets be real!!! 😂

As @Tezia99 mentioned above, mobility is just so huge and FUN to play with, and it only gets amplified by Mighty  Destroyers. Having a unit of Brutes go 8 feels so bad to me instead of a unit of GGs go 18 or a MK/Big G go 24. I guess it depends on playstyle, but I simply love that we can be almost anywhere on the map and we don't have to rely on a turn 1 alpha strike plan. I don't mind hanging back a bit and try to see an opening/let my opponent do a mistake and then exploit it. This is also why I love the Ironsunz, the possibility of your opponent doing charges and leaving an opening for you to counter-charge is great.

Edit: Also I don't find Waaagh that back. Sure it isn't what it used to be, but when you have +1 damage and +1 hit/wound ontop, 1 extra attack on multiple attack profiles (again why I fancy GGs and MK) is much stronger than what it sounds like. +1 damage on especially 1 damage profiles really amplifies the damage output.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

49 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Ironically I now view them as the cheap frontline infantry unit.

1. 90 points 5 Ardboys - Backline space control and objective holders. Cheap bodies unit.
2. 140 points 5 Brutes - Frontline space control and objective holders. It's a reasonably high damave infantry unit that has ok wounds at it's points cost.
3. 160 points 3 GG's - Easily our best unit. Low on bodies but great in ever other regard.
4. 180 points 10 Ardboys - The heavy frontline unit, great for soaking buffs and hard to shift.

For their points Brutes are one of the best units to target with buffs. A unit of 5 is making 12 attacks with it's choppas, 3 attacks with it's gore choppa and and 4 attacks from the boss.

That's 19 attacks at 140 points, a unit of 10 Ardboys is 22 attacks by comparison so for things like the Warchanter buff or +1 to hit they are very good receptacles for it at their points value.

Brutes might be great all juiced up on paper, but when are you realisticly gonna have it? I feel like Mighty Destroyers is a waste on them. It feels much better slapping the Warchanters +1 on either the MK or GGs and then send either of them flying with a double movement to secure a sweet charge.

Between Waaagh (once a game, sure), Big G's CA and Mighty Destroyer on the MK/GGs, you are kinda starved for CPs and granting Brutes a +4 movement feels really bad to me.

You talked about how sometimes we are forced to take unit X due to how our units are priced. I honestly think my list building is gonna come down to this - I will take Brutes when the points require it. Otherwise I would much rather have the speed of GGs or the coverage of Ardboyz.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

So I had my first game with the book tonight and ran the list below - I might have taken an idea or two from @Malakree 😂

I faced Seraphon with the dreaded Thunderquake batallion (dual Bastilladons + Stegadon etc.) and I have always had a bad time against this one. It has always felt like they turtle up in a huge fortress that is almost impossible to break in. Not today! He decided to concede at the end of his turn 2 after Big G killed the Stegador in one round of combat. Smasha (+2 from SFV) making D3 MWs on a 4+ wound roll is honestly quite insane on units without any MW saves.

I completely forgot about the Ironsunz command ability, but honestly wouldn't have made a difference. When it came to his charge phase, my stuff was already locked in. I decided to go second in turn 1 and gambled a little on the double turn, which paid off big time. I misdeployed my Maw Krusha but due to 2 turns in a row he managed to get in where he should.

He teleported a unit of skinks within 12"of Gordrakk in turn 1, which meant I couldn't Mighty Destroyer for an extra movement and hit somewhere weak. He also managed to zap him with the Stegador and obviously rolled a 6 on the D6 MW ability. Ouch! Bad start. It was quite smart really with the teleport of the skinks and I didn't think about the possibility at all when it came to my idea. Honestly when I think of Mighty Destroyers, I never think about the charge part if within 12", only that it moves you and you can fight again in the hero phase if already in combat. Mighty Destroyers is certainly something your opponent can mess with.

Even with the new book I honestly don't like Brutes at all. They are slow as poop compared to Gore Gruntas or the Maw Krushas and they didn't do anything the entire game. I guess they could be useful to have sitting on an objective though, but I would probably rather have Ardboyz for that.

Honestly our Waaagh combined with Warchanters giving +1 damage and Gordrakk giving 3 units +1 to hit ontop is quite insane.  Everything hits on 2s and wounds on 2s or 3s. I don't miss the old Waaagh bomb one bit and I love the possibilities we have now. So pumped for future games!

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Big G (540)
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Lil' G (460)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Talisman of the Watcher
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

15 minutes ago, Incredebilis said:

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but if you do Mighty Destroyers on a unit within 3" of an enemy and it does its attacks, does it fight in the Combat Phase as well as the Hero Phase or just the Hero Phase? Same question for their Movement and Charge Phase if they're not 3" away. Thanks!

It is in addition. So you can move a Maw Krusha 12, then move it again 12 in the movement phase. Or it can fight twice in your turn etc.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

6 hours ago, knightish said:

Here is the rule. Was one of the previewed ones which is noice.

I read this wrong.

Malakree is correct.

As long as our unit is 9" away from a unit before the move it can move, if it took dmg in the phase. 

So if you destroy a unit in the combat phase and there are no enemy units left within 9", then you should be able to move D6 too. Assuming you took some wounds obviously.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

6 hours ago, knightish said:

Hey Everyone

Interested in the group opinion.

Ironsunz / the other clans  Verse No clan.

I love some of the rules we get from the Clans, but the forced items can sometimes be a little less than desirable compared to say realm artifacts / Cmd traits etc

This is my list. And my inclination is to go Ironsunz.

But going no clan means I can deck out my MC to be a bit more of a Beatstick / survivable.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Allies

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 139
 

I have thought about this too, but considering what you get from the clans, I think you are much better off just grabbing a Megaboss on foot and take all the forced stuff on him. In this case I would probably switch your prophet for one.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

So with Warscroll Builder finally working I rigged up a few different lists. The first is the list I'm going to go with for my next game.

 

Second list is an Ardfist which works well as either Da Choppas or possibly even Da Big Waaagh! 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Choppas

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117

• This list would play more conservatively, keeping the Cabbages back and throwing Ardboys forward.
• +1 damage on 10 Ardboys is brutal, Da Choppas would let you throw this over all 3 big units. 
• Not having to take the clan Artefact is a bonus.
• The Trait is a little wasted but it does push your army up to Bravery 10.
• More interesting is as a Big Waaagh! list.
• The units of 10 will generate points when they charge.
• Ardboys with +1 to hit,+1 to wound and +1 damage are bonkers
• Due to the conservative playstyle you don't miss the Mighty Destroyers.
• Ardfist is a fantastic CP funnel again meaning Mighty Destroyers isn't as missed.
• 3 Drops.

The final one is probably the one which intrests me most, sadly I'm 10 Brutes short  

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)

Battalions
Brute Fist (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112

Two different Clan options here, Da Choppas or Ironsunz.

• For Da Choppas I'd probably take Daubing of Mork to keep the general alive.
• Being able to buff 3 Brute units with +1 damage is solid.
• +2 Bravery from the Trait really mitigates the Brute bravery pain.
• Being able to charge in the opponents charge phase makes the Brutefist disgusting.
• -1 to hit mitigates the lack of speed and bravery on your brutes at least a bit.
• Only the Warchanter doesn't do impact hits on a charge.
• Makes even retreating from them risky for your opponent.

 

You really think 1 Warchanter is enough? The buff feels too good to pass up on imo. It doubles the damage output of most of our units. Or is it just because you don't think you will be able to make use of the Warbeats due to lack of movement?

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Fastbear said:

I'm playing around with the idea of a Big Waagh list with Ironjawz. Battleplan will be to send inn 20 ardboys turn 1 with hand of gork and commit the rest turn 2 with 1+hit and  1+wound armywide from big waaagh battletraits. Simple and Hard

 

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!  2000 points

LEADERS
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540) - Mount Trait : Wierd 'Un or Big 'Un
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110) - Lore of the Weird : Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warboss (140) - Great Waaagh Banner

UNITS
9 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (420) - Pig-iron Choppas
20 x Orruk Ardboys (360)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
The Burning Head (30)

I personally wouldn't include the Warboss in any list. It will 100% be FAQ'd within a couple of weeks.

[Hero phase healing is not well pointed]

2 minutes ago, Eevika said:

But is it really fun to just smash plague monks in to Witch elves and the one who hits first destroys the entire enemy unit. 

I think it is significantly more fun for people to play where both players throw dice and models from both armies die, rather than one army shruging off almost every wound.

[Hero phase healing is not well pointed]

1 minute ago, Eevika said:

I would like there to be actual tanks in the game. I think only Gotek and Frosthearth Phoenix are the only true tanks right now. When everything is just a super high damage dealer or support piece nothing has personality 

Hearthguard Berzerkers are pretty close to tanks. It is an example of a unit that I personally don't find enjoyable. It causes tons of issues in casual play and in general it is just not really fun to face against.

[Hero phase healing is not well pointed]

8 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Its just sad that most units with healing dont get a dpr at all. Goes to waste there

Honestly I would rather not see it at all, so I'm okay with healing generally being weak and only good in few specific scenarios. I want models on the table to die, it is no fun and actually rather frustrating to play against an opponent with a model that just wont die but keep killing your stuff.

[Hero phase healing is not well pointed]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:22 PM, Mutton said:

I definitely think GW overvalues healing. Restoring D3 wounds is basically nothing, unless it's a free ability that's going off every round. In the modern AoS world, where units can easily dish out boatloads of wounds or mortal wounds in a single round, a couple of points of healing means nothing. Take Lifeswarm for example---nobody gave it a second look until the new Cities book offered it reliably in empowered form (for D6 healing/models returned).

That said, the key is warscroll acumen when doling out healing abilities. You don't generally want to give healing to units that are already nearly impossible to kill (this leads to the immovable object), but you can give it to units that are otherwise vulnerable to damage. It's all relative to the models it's used on.

Healing isn't bad at all on tanky units with high save and FNP ontop. The moment the unit isn't tanky, sure the healing isn't great and you are likely better off casting a damaging spell on the opponent.

Gotrek comes to mind, and you can also make a rather tanky Megaboss on Maw Krusha with 2+ save and 4+ against spells/endless spells. Healing D3 or D6 isn't meaningless on those models when 1 single wound actually translates into multiple attacks/wounds in reality due to saves.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

19 minutes ago, Fastbear said:

I'm having a discussion with my group whether or not gordrak can take a mount trait. From what i read, mount traits are seperate from command traits and artifacts of power. And it is not stated anywhere i can find that you cannot do it. What are your thoughts on the matter?

The core rules only specify artefacts and hero traits, nowhere does it specificly mention mount traits. Beside that, Stormcast unique heroes are able to have mount traits, so there is really nothing that indicates that  Gordrakk CANT have a mount trait.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Honest Wargamer reviewed the tome last night (EU time) where they talked about the tome and what they deemed awesome. Wasn't too much new to me, but they mentioned some cool tricks with the Shaman. You can really beef him up to be a quite good caster. +4 casting/dispelling, Vortex for multiple spell casts etc. Some of the spells could be quite good against armies that screen and bubble wrap their important units/heroes, like Seraphon, Fyreslayers or Skaven. You have to give up a fair bit of fighting power, but it could balance the army matchups a bit more. Toying around with The Burning Head could also be worthwhile - Move units with the Mad as Hell rule + give them reroll hit rolls of 1s.