Kasper

I havent seen any lists without Amulet of Destiny on the MK general. Its significantly better than anything else. Most of the really strong lists are a 1 drop army, so having more drops beyond that is kinda meh. I also think our army has the option of punishing the opponent if you are given turn 1, so I dont mind not having a say in going first or second. I kinda want my 2nd MK to have some artefact or whatever to increase his value which means 1 Warlord batallion is a given for me, at this point Im looking at 5+ drops so does it really matter how many drops I have at this point? Might as well go for double Warlord + Hunters for maximum value. Theres also value in being able to deploy your MKs once the whole army of your opponent is on the table.

Im having such a hard time deciding between Ironsunz and Bloodtoofs. Both abilities are so incredibly strong when used well. I love the idea of being able to launch Pigs up the board and trade effeciently with a screen or whatever, then get to charge and tag something else and pin the opponent back for a whole turn, especially in the current meta where a lot of armies are made up of a couple of units. Ironsunz just creates this puzzle for your opponent where he wants to single out a Maw Krusha, but if he charges it then he knows the other will countercharge and mess with his plans. It is amazing having these choices but on the other hand.. Its so difficult to pick! I want both of them!! Anyone played with Bloodtoofs recently?

Right so the thread is just fearmongering. Seems a bit of a misleadng title.

Where has this been confirmed? Because there is zero indication that you will have to PAY for warscrolls, I havent seen or heard anything about this so it seems like pure speculation. Right now you have free access to the warscrolls and you dont even have to signup with a warhammer account, the only stuff that is locked behind a paywall is the usual battletome-specific things that have always been gated behind buying a book - The new app essentially just allows you to have a digital copy of the book.

If you have issues with sight then you probably dont get much use out of seeing things on youtube on the phone either etc. I would suggest getting a tablet, which you can get for next to no money (considering how expensive anything else is in this hobby). Should make your life much better. You can also get the app on the tablet which makes everything significantly bigger and easier to read. I dont really get this whining for the sake of whining though - I mean you said it yourself, you are already done with the game, but your post just makes you come off as a grumpy old man.

If the opponent is far enough in on the objective, then the Brute ability does nothing (or not enough) in some cases though. In my mind the difference between Bloodtoofs and Ironsunz is that Bloodtoofs allows for you to be more proactive in the game where as Ironsunz is a reactive playstyle. Both are good depending on how you play. Do you really need to play 2x6 Pigs? Even with 2 MKs? I prefer 4x3 Pigs for sure, since it gives you a lot more options in regards to how you use the Pigs. The list with 2 MK, 3 WCs, 1 Weirdnob and then 4x3 Pigs is looking quite good in my eyes since you get double Warlord. You could give the Weirdnob the Arcane Tome so he can cast 2 spells (Mystic Shield + Teleport/Bash'em) and still have Destroyer on 1 MK.

I dont get how this discussion reached 14 pages with the subject "The End of Free Warscrolls" when they have a (currently) free app with all the warscrolls on there for everybody to look at. Nobody knows if stuff is being locked behind a paywall - At the moment it seems army specific stuff like command traits/artefacts/spell lores are locked behind actually buying the book - Since you currently unlock it by using a code at the back of the new SCE/Orruks physical book, but the warscrolls themselves are free. Literally nothing has changed, except you cant get them off the GW website but the best source has always been using the free app.

All of them, thats the whole point. 😜 I find it easier if you simply place a 25mm base where Scurvy placed the measure sticks. As long as that base touches the opponent and each Pig hugs the base, then every Pig will be within 1" of the enemy unit so you get impact hits, pig attacks etc.

I prefer this list as well - Nitpicking but for whatever reason you cant duplicate the GHB batallions unlike the ones in the Core Rules.

Im not sold on Mega Bossy, granted I havent tried it out but from my games Im simply starved for CPs. There are way too many things you want to keep a command point for IMO to ever see myself spam Mighty Destroyers multiple times a turn. I want 1) Mighty Destroyers 2) All-out Attack/Defense 3) Redeploy 4) Ironsunz countercharge 5) Inspiring possibly 6) All-out Attack/Defense in my opponent's turn. If I got a bunch of slow dudes I would probably prefer to 7) Autorun 6" to get onto objectives unless they need to get into combat or shoving Warchanters forward for the next turn. Im missing some rare CAs like rerolling charges, but thats already way more than the 3 or 4 you get per round. Obviously it helps if you are good at rolling a 4+ but its still tight and you might opt to go for the healing on the MK once he takes damage. Mega Bossy in my mind is for when you want to alpha your opponent with your whole army.

Yeah certainly. Thats why I said its so hard to discuss loadout on the MawKrushas since it so heavily depends on how you play and what you play against. At the end of the day, what matters is what works for you, not what some nerd on the internet tells you to do. The only thing Im a bit miffed about is the command traits. Im not blown away by any of them..

Yeah I stand corrected, I was thinking of units with strike-last effects. So you probably dont want to charge Gotrek.. 😂 But it will work against anything else which is crazy good for pinning them back, especially larger models like Archaon. The fact the opponent doesnt get to hit back is really big imo. 12 wounds is like.. Absurd luck on his part and your saves were absolute trash then. I guess your MK didnt have Amulet on it? 🤨 My issue with that is you have 1/4 of your army just doing nothing, not even contesting an objective in one end of the map or whatever. I also think the MK has more than enough damage on its own and doesnt need the +3 from a single round. The value from the extra damage feels significantly less than the value you get from having Mystic Shield on the other MK, which amplifies the value of Amulet etc. Its true some armies will have an easy time unbinding the roll but in some cases you can be outside of range, a least turn 1 and maybe 2. Another question is how much of a threat those magic dom armies pose? I dont think Teclis is scary, we have too many mobile units with too much damage output and they generally lack models, so you can get into the soft bits real fast. Nagash is also not an issue I think - You could potentially kill Nagash in a turn, but you could also very easily kill almost anything else in the army in a single turn. Mortek Guard dont take rend 3 attacks too well. I played around with Armor of Gork a bit and I found it pretty trash. 6++ is obviously nowhere near as consistent or good as a 5++, and the +1 hit is only on the Megaboss and not on the rend 2 attacks. The movement penalty also doubles down when you start to double move him.

Sure and thats the best usage of it in my mind, tripple move is way overkill in an army that is already incredibly mobile. Unleash Hell can be prevented by sending in 5 Ardboyz but more realistically 3 Pigs first. You can also just ignore it because alot of shooting units arent THAT scary when they are -1 to hit from UH against a 2+ 5++ MK anyways. Obviously there are some units I would like to avoid being shot at (Sentinels come to mind) but yeah. It might be a local meta thing but generally Im not too afraid of being shot to pieces. We have luckily very few Sentinels players in general. I havent had any issues with DoK. Personally I would prefer having my MK as tanky as possible vs combat armies or for pinning my opponent back from grabbing objectives. Edit: Come to think of it, how often are you within a good charge distance after a simple 12" free move? Most nasty shooting units have an immense range or are being teleported around, so not sure how often you really get to prevent Unleash Hell on some of the nasty units?

How often do you really need to tripple move? Its 36".. Thats like from board edge to board edge. I have only found this useful when you want to alpha and want to engage something at the back corner of the opponent's castle while pushing something else in from another direction to pin them back, otherwise it seems a bit overkill, especially if you arent given the first turn. I find it really difficult to discuss the loadout on the Maw Krushas because it really depends on how you play and what the rest of your list looks like. If all you do is alpha your opponent, then loadout is gonna be signfiicantly different than if you intend to play an objective based game.

Stonks for the Pigs and Bloodtoofs just seem to keep rising. People generally seem to still be in a 2.0 mindset and havent really realized just how much the combat phase has changed and how its actually different to any other phase in AoS3.0. In the Core Rules 12.5 the combat phase is very specifically described as to how it works, which is where the Bloodtoofs ability really gets to shine. Since the ability to charge something happens at the end of the combat phase, it means whatever your Pigs charge are not allowed to fight back, since this happens at step 3, and your charge is step 5. This also means you can do things like kill 3 Screamers with your Pigs, Bloodtoof charge into Archaon and now he is tied up the following turn and is forced to spend 1/5 battlerounds fighting 150 pts. He will obviously kill them, but wont get to move unless he decides to retreat, but 1) the huge base will limit to where he can go and 2) he effectively wasted a turn as well. Bloodtoofs seem insane even for "non-alpha" lists due to the ability to pin, movement and area denial.

I would guess the aim is to cast Mystic Shield on your MK with Amulet of Destiny and let it pin/tank the world. When you start pushing into the 2+ save zone the survivability skyrockets, especially with the 5+ ward ontop. Honestwargamer recently made a video on this subject on youtube where they show the math and it gets really crazy. Its called "The Amulet of Destiny is too good and I'm sick of pretending its not." I was really blown away! Yes you can All-out Defense to get to 2+ as well, but you will need multiple stacks of +save against many things. With Mystic Shield you can layer AoD and even Finest Hour. Obviously you intend for whatever your MK charges to get decimated, but the opponent got a turn afterwards, where the Mystic Shield really shines. It also allows the option of using Metamorphisis on a Warchanter and run 3 monsters together for an extra VP in the situations where you dont want to alpha your opponent. Flaming Weapon on the rend 2 fists is also great - Destroyer is awesome but only works for 1 round, Arcane Tome is just more versatile. You also get a dispell against endless spells like Shackles etc.

So your point being that Brutes are only good in Choppas then? I feel like this discussion is dishonest and pointless tbh.

As I wrote, it might be a case of local metas being different, but literally nobody are playing mass Pinks or whatever here in either clubs that I play in. At most some Tzeentch lists have 10 Pinks because they usually want to fill it with support for Archaon or mass casters or whatever, but a single unit is easy enough to deal with and dont "require" Brutes at all. If someone is playing 40 Pinks in Australia I dont really care since it isnt affecting me in EU, yet. Yes the damage of Brutes is superior to Pigs but the gulf between them dont seem big enough mathhammer wise to give up the increased mobility. People are drooling over the "rend 2 is king" thing but mathhammer wise it doesnt seem THAT much stronger? So there are obviously a lot of factors that can be at play here. This is just 5 Brutes (3 with Gore-Hackas, 1 Gore-choppa and 1 Boss Klaw) vs 3 Pigs. Both have warchanter buff. I didnt factor in the +1 to hit for the Brutes because the arguement is the objective play (i.e fighting 1 wound models) rather than overall damage potential - You can always give the Pigs +1 from AoA anyways and it will be about the same increase. Lets assume you are fighting something with a 4+ base save that got +2 to save from Mystic Shield and AoD or whatever (ignoring rend 2 then), this would mean the Pigs are doing 9,33 damage to the unit because the targeted unit will be on a 3+ save meanwhile the Brutes will do 11,83 damage because they ignore the +2 save so they are hitting against the 4+ base save. Its a bit scuffed because the Boss Klaw is only rend 1, so should be hitting on a 3+ target too but I pooled everything into one profile, lets give the Brutes this edge and its probably minor anyways. So Brutes are ahead here but we are missing the very likely 2 MWs from 3x 3+ impact hits from the Pigs, so a more realistic picture would be that they are doing 2+9,33 = 11,33 damage. So the mathhammer picture leans in favor of Brutes the better save the target has and obviously leans towards the Pigs as you fight targets with worse saves like Zombies or most other horde units in general. They are identical points (pretty much) Brutes DO more damage, but mathhammer proves the damage is not as big as people make it out to be Pigs have significantly superior mobility Am I missing something here?

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives. I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline.

The spears lost the +1/+1 on the charge, but the pigs are now baseline 3/3 instead of 4/4. So spears do less damage with melee attacks but the impact hits were improved from a 4+ to a 2+ with spears.

Yeah I'll probably MD Brutes + GG + MK first turn and then have the Brutes run in the movement. Should send them flying to where they need to be for a countercharge in Ironsunz or ready for turn 2 really.

Hmm I guess 2” is massive and easily allows them to fight in 2 Ranks. Might give them a go tbh! Quite liking the list below. Got two “pairs” with a MK + 3 Pigs being buffed and sent forward. Second pair waiting for next wave. Brutes are cleanup crew. Been playing with 6 heroes previously but those last 2 guys are essentially alot of wasted wounds considering our units are so cheap now. I do miss having access to Mystic Shield. 🤨 List Name: Ironjawz Allegiance: Orruk Warclans - Subfaction: Ironsunz - Army Type: Ironjawz - Grand Strategy: - Triumphs: Leaders ---------- Megaboss on Maw-krusha (480 pts)+ Orruk Warchanter (115 pts)+ Orruk Warchanter (115 pts)+ Megaboss on Maw-krusha (General) (480 pts) Battleline ---------- Orruk Ardboys (85 pts)+ Orruk Brutes (320 pts)++ - Reinforced: Once Orruk Ardboys (85 pts) Units ---------- Orruk Gore-gruntas (150 pts)++ Orruk Gore-gruntas (150 pts)++ Artillery ---------- Behemoth ---------- Endless Spells & Invocations ---------- Core Battalions ---------- Warlord+ - Bonus Enhancement: Artefact of Power Hunters of the Heartlands++ Total Points: 1980 pts

How do you deal with coherency with them though? I havent mapped it out in person but the big bases sound bad with a 10 man squad.

As @PlasticCraic said you likely wont be using this too much, but it can enable some situations where you might pull a ranged unit into combat (by piling around the current unit you are fighting) to disable Unleash Hell or allow you to hit a hero standing behind. You essentially get to pile-in 6" in your turn which is quite a lot. Imagine fighting a screen that is standing on the edge of an objective, 6" means you can probably snake quite a few models around the unit and onto the objectives etc. Its really just another option/tool in your toolbox. This army is in general rather straight forward on the surface - Strong melee models that just want to smash things - But where it really shines and becomes "complicated" is the mobility/speed aspect of the army. I mean you can only ever fight twice and never more each turn, but yeah double fighting Pigs in in Bloodtoofs FOR FREE is just insane. There is ZERO chance "pile-in" = attacking. It will be FAQ'd for sure just to kill the endless questions about this.

I think it depends on your plan with them and what the rest of your army looks like. Are they meant to be your main threat? Likely 6, if you have something else as the main threat, 2x3 IMO. 6 are iffy to use though, but if you want to get gamey you can have 6 fighting all at once while keeping coherency.