madmac

I think double axes are probably better if you're going to just have groups of 10 roaming around semi-independently. They can hit reliably without buffs and it pairs well with the new Berserker fury. OTOH, for a group of 20 Vulkites with hero support, picks and shields all the way, IMO. They have better baseline stats/abilities for use as a buff platform, you can pretty easily make them a 2+ save unit with rend attacks and a little bit of mortal wound damage, which totally beats out double axes in terms of potential. It's what I plan to do anyway, I've already got 20 of each built and painted so I'm planning to run a group of 20 w shields and two groups of 10 with double axes and see how it goes.

Everything else aside, this is definitely true. They're not the horde army they used to be and I don't see the days of 90x Vulkites every coming back. Looking at my fairly modest Fyreslayer investment, for example. I have 40 vulkites, 20 HGB in groups of 10, and 15 Aurics. That's 640+480+360 or 1480 points worth of just troops in 75 models. Realistically I'll never even field that many guys on the table simultaneously. Likewise my 4 Magmadroths represent 1060 points worth of leadership, My little questing band of 2 Grimwrath+Doomseeker heroes is 300 points, ect. I've got enough guys for multiple builds and any battalion and that's enough for me.

Hearthguard, both Aurics and Berserkers are 120 points for 5. You get a discount at 30, which is why it's 600 and not 720. (I fully expect the horde discount to be axed in short order) Vulkites are 160 points for 10, and almost all heroes got their prices bumped 20-40 points. Battalions are a touch more expensive. Fyreslayers are quite a bit more expensive now than they used to be. Honestly though, even if you're trying to milk Berserkers, the best build is probably still good old Lords of the Lodge for the one blob of 30 that can attack twice. (1280 points to fill out the battalion, giving some space for battleline and additional hero support) Trippling down on Berserkers is simply unnecessary.

Hmm. 2x30 Hearthguard Berserkers=1200 Points 10x Hearthguard Berserkers=240 Points Runefather on Magmadroth= 280 Points Battlesmith=140 Points That's 1860 points for 3 units and two heroes. You can at best squeeze in one more hero. Probably a Runesmiter for 120 Points, bringing you 1980 I'm not saying that's not an army with some strong points, and I do think Hearthguard are underpriced, but I'm not really sold on that build. Overall, I'm just not worried about it. Next Generals Handbook comes out in a couple months, if Hearthguard are a big enough problem to cause an uproar they'll get tweaked in a hurry.

Even the Runeson has his place. The one on foot has a really strong command ability, and the Magmadroth version is made to be used in pairs. Two Runesons in Magmadroth within 6" of each other both get to re-roll hits on all attacks, which is insane. Can use the command ability strategically as a line breaker, too. It's just that his weapon options are terrible. That's, uh, 1800 points of Hearthguard, man. Did you think they came in units of 10 for 120? Change that to 2x30 for 1200 points and you still need a third battleline unit. I think people are getting a little over-excited about Hearthguard. Yeah, they're a little undercosted but just taking away the horde bonus* which GW could easily do at any time hits them hard, and a little hero sniping goes a long way. *Without the horde bonus you're looking at 1440 for two squads of 30. That alone and people will be running x20 instead.

Just a bit of a mental exercise to try and put the point changes into practice, comparing the cost of maxed out battalions old vs new. Warrior Kinband, 90 vulkites and a Runeson or Runeson on Magmadroth Old cost=1280 or 1440 for Magmadroth. New Cost=1680 or 1820 for Magmadroth Lords of the Lodge, Runefather on Magmadroth, Runemaster, Battlesmith, 30 Hearthguard Berserkers Old Cost=1050 New Cost=1280 Forge Brethren, Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth and uh lets say 3x10 Aurics, because 90 would be silly Old Cost=940 New Cost=1140 And just for Fun, 5 Magmadroths+3 minimum size units of Vulkite Berserkers. 1 Runefather, 2 Runesons, 2 Runesmiters 1760 points. Oof! Definitely makes me lean more towards the 4 Magmadroth list. Overall, the only big price jump was for Vulkites, but since almost everything went up about 20 points, across the board armies are definitely going to be smaller, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

They all have their key points. The Runefather is now 3+/3+ with the Latchkey Axe and his weapon breaker rule is streamlined, along with better trait/artifact choices, he's still your bruiser option. In a less Magmadroth focused army he's also still a strong pick for General just for trait access and his command ability giving an 18" battleshock immunity bubble. Oh and battleline Hearthguard Berserkers, obviously. Runesons now have an ability that lets them re-roll all hits if within 6" of another Runeson, so two of those guys are pretty key if you're building a Magmadroth pack. The new command ability that lets a magmadroth do d6 mortal wounds on a charge is also quite nice. Runesmiter on magmadroth is the only one that can take the droth helm (re-roll all droth claw attacks within 6") which combined with his buffed Grand Ritual, access to prayers, ect makes him an invaluable support piece. Good pick as general for any list, I think, with the small downside of forcing you to take vulkite only battleline. The way I see it you eventually want one of each and two runesons. Max is 5, but I don't really see a reason to do more than 4 magmadroths, if I did I'd build 2 Smiters, 2 Sons, and a Father.

Antimagic stuff does exist. I don't remember all the details, but there's some traits/artifacts for priest that allow unbinds, and the Battlesmith in particular is the hero we need. IIRC, he has one magic banner that allows an unbind+mortal wounds if successful, and another banner that allows nearby units to resist any spell on a 4+

Also notable-Doomseekers and Grimwrath Berserkers are not leaders, so they don't count towards your 6 cap.

For a full on Magmadroth stack, assuming the kit shown in early previews is largely Priest specific, I would probably go Runesmiter as general, 2x Runesons, (buff each other and Battering Rams) 1x Runefather for the melee damage, mostly, and maybe one more Runesmiter as backup and extra prayer utility. Would actually be a very interesting build, I think.

Alright, Warscroll review time: Vulkite Berserkers: Hit on 3s now, that's huge. Karl is +1 attack instead of plus damage, weaker but less of a hassle to roll out. Horn got changed to just +1 charge, that's kinda lame. Wording on Slingshields and paired axes basically the same. Verdict: Looking quite buff, actually! Streamlined but arguably stronger than ever, and more versatile now that you don't need blocks of 30 Doomseeker: He lost a point of Move, randomly. Weapon profiles are unchanged. (and pretty lame, but hey 6 attacks) Oathbound is the only ability he kep, no changes. In place of Runic Power and Goaded by Fury, he gets a flat +1 damage for the first wound he takes, and +2 damage for the second. Verdict: ??? Honestly man, I dunno. If for some reason he is wounded but not killed, he's a terror, otherwise he's fairly blah. Maybe with a good artifact you can do something with him. Battlesmith: Flat damage boost on his axe makes him no slouch in combat. His change to + saves has already been discussed, it's good. Multiple stacking sources of + saves is going to be a new Fyreslayer gimmick, and his old re-roll ability would have been OP for the new Fyreslayers. Death ability is unchanged Grimwrath Berserker: Oh boy, flat 2 damage and -2 rend. I already forgot your name, Doomseeker. FNP ability unchanged, Battle Fury is a flat 2+, And dead but not defeated is automatic. Streamlined and buffed pretty much across the board. This dude is scary. Runemaster: Brazier thing gets a weapon profile. It's basically the standard issue wizard staff, but still, melee buff Holy Seeker change is weird. Less of a disadvantage, still hard to take advantage of. Volcano's call is actually slightly nerfed, has to make a prayer roll, range changed from 20 to 18 and uses normal deadly terrain rules, so no more instant death. Verdict: Ehhhhhh I'm gonna call this one a whiff. He's not useless, and it helps that he'll always have prayers or minding the forge to fall back on, but he's still weird and gimmicky. Auric Hearthguard: + 3 range is nice, and Karl gives an extra range attack now, instead of the useless melee buff. Sworn Protectors has been replaced, they can protect nearby foot heroes but no longer get + 1 to hit. That's...hmmm Verdict: The HP buff and Range boost, and improved Rockbolts are all very good things, bodyguard for your all important priests is also useful, but they did definitely take an overall hit to range damage. RuneFather on Foot: 3+/3+ actually makes the Latchkey fearsome Staredown is unchanged Weapon Breaker is now just a single fish for a 6 at the end of combat, and only against heroes. It realistically will almost never happen Lodge Leader is now just a 12" bubble of + 1 charge. Meh Verdict: He needed the axe buff to be a credible melee threat, but everything else is arguably worse? Meh RuneFather on Magmadroth: Alright, Magmadroth stat changes are + 2 Wounds, and a bite attack 4+ 2+ -2 r d3 damage. Ok. Breath/tail attacks unchanged, except -3 range on breath. Magma Blood is now simply 4+/ 1 mortal wound for every melee wound allocated to it. Steadfast Advance is now just battleshock immunity in an 18" bubble, good change Runesmiter on Foot: Save nerfed from 4+ to 5+. No change to melee profile. Empowerment is a prayer and -2 range, magic tunneling is mostly the same. It now kills units if they don't appear by the 4th round, and you can set up the unit 12" from the Runesmiter if that's important somehow Verdict: Honestly probably the least changed hero, and gets a prayer now, so buffed Runesmiter on Magmadroth: Grand Ritual is now +1 saves ww 12" Verdict: Buffed, more for general usefulness and character options, but the new ritual is arguably better and overall utility is very high. Runeson on Foot: Waraxe still sucks. Javelin hits on 4 at range now, but 3+/3+ in melee. Javelin +2 dam works at both range and melee Explosive Rage replaced with Vying for Glory, reroll all hits if within 6" of another Runeson. With how bad he sucks at fighting, not much help. Unless it works on Magmadroths...checking that in a moment Dauntless Assault is now +1 wound rolls, 12 inch bubble, very very good Runeson on Magmadroth: Vying for Glory is indeed applicable on Magmadroth. So 2x Runesons on Droths is probably a must for Magmadroth heavy strategies. New Command Ability-Molton Battering Ram. One Droth, charge and on a 2+ do d6 mortal Wounds So basically Runeson has an actual niche now. On foot, use him to buff infantry, or take two Runesons on Magmadroths and go wild.

Poleaxes will benefit a lot from re-rolls to hit, even re-rolling ones, but I don't think I've seen that yet for Fyreslayers. It's funny, because the two weapons basically switched places. Broadaxes look reliable now, and Pikes are spikey. Personally I've got 10 of each and I don't see any reason to change that up really. Considering bumping from 10 to 15 Aurics though. Want to see the new battalion requirements first. Edit: Also nerfed throwing axes is totally worth going to 3+ to hit on key units.

Yeah, that's a weird move. Probably there's at least some traits or artifacts or lodge or whatever that allow unbinds but I don't see why they can't just give us one hero that unbinds for free.

Just wait for the weekend, early previews will be out and all the relevant details will be available.

One interesting thing about it, on re-read. You need one priest to be within 6 inches, which broadcasts the benefit out to 18 inches. I think probably the assumption is that babysitting the forge is now the Runemasters job, since Runesmiters are for deepstriking or close combat support. Also all the more reason to take the artillery geyser so he has more options for long-range support.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/11/battletome-fyreslayers-the-armoury-and-magmic-battleforge/ Forge rules are up. I'm a little disappointed, but only because it's priest focused. The benefits are quite nice. I would have liked the one per game ability to be power activating a rune instead of army-wide mystic shield, but I can't really complain that hard. The fluff on Fyresteel weapons confirms a lot of abilities survive in some form. There's references to the Runefather's weapon breaking ability, the forge brethren's bulwark ability, and the vulkites thrown slingshields.

Not gonna lie, I'm feeling pretty smug on settling for 40 vulkites and 20 Hearthguard Berserkers right now. Not needing to buy 50 more vulkites feels almost as good as getting new models, at least for this week. I think I'm definitely going to grab at least one more Grimwrath Berserker, and maaaaybe one more Magmadroth, but I need to see how all the magmadroth focused stuff shakes out first. It's not like having 3 droths isn't a solid chunk already. In terms of long term army planning, mostly just want to see the battalions and point costs now.

The infernoth is aoe damage, it's 12 dice for every unit within 3 inches, unlike pretty much other endless spell I can think of that uses the 12 dice mechanic. It's still less cool that it's amazing model deserves but it's not bad by any means.

I missed that, but probably just means they don't lose any movement going up and over like a ground unit moving over terrain normally would. Also relevant for this thread: https://twitter.com/_devianttactics/status/1115537555624218625 confirmation Vulkites lose the invuln save but other units still have it.

I was hoping for maximum bonkers from the Infernoth also, but it's not bad at all. Only a 3+ to summon, so it's reliable, unlike the 5+ you need for the khorne axe. Also, it's roll 12 dice for every unit within 3 inches of where it stops, so you can roll into a blob of enemy units and do quite a bit of carnage. The + Bravery is always nice to have on Fyreslayers also, I've been brutalized by the battleshock phase enough times to appreciate it. (And like all endless prayers, it can't be dispelled, can't be controlled by the enemy, won't hurt your guys, ect. It's better than most predatory endless spells straight up) The wall is simple but cool, I like that you can use it to shield Magmadroths and then have them walk right over it. The Flame-spitter is definitely the star of the show, though. Straight up a howitzer for your Runemaster, I love it.

One of the interesting things about the preview is that it makes it pretty clear that Priest characters have their own traits and artifacts list, and they're both looking really solid. Going to be seeing a lot of Runesmiters on Magmadroths in the general role, I think. Especially with that artifact that lets Magmadroths re-roll hits, that thing is nice.

The rumor was for Vulkites specifically, and yeah it's probably true that it's a sidegrade at best for them. I fully believe Hearthguard will keep their FNP, notice they didn't get a new ability like the other two units. OTOH, Berserk Fury doesn't scale with unit size, so it pulls the army away from just massing max sized units of Vulkites, and that was absolutely necessary for the health of the army. Instead we have Hearthguard getting huge buffs, Magmadroths possibly being worth using again, and an interesting emphasis on using melee foot heroes as killing machines. Also priests being actual priests. Which is all way, waaaay more flavorable and interesting for the army than Vulkite spam. It's not like Vulkites would even be bad, they'll just probably shift to being solid affordable battleline units instead of the cornerstone of the entire army.

I don't know if Vulkites will go up too much, it looks to me like Berserk fury and the extra wound replaces their beard-save, but if they still get horde bonuses of some kind I could see them going up a fair bit. Hearthguard Berserkers though, definitely will go up, and should, being actual elite units was the thing they never were, bizarrely. (They were 100 points/5 previously, which is weak battle-line territory.) Berserkers with broad axes are now 2 wounds, 2 attacks at 3+/3+ -1 r 2 damage with 2 inch reach and presumably still a 4+ FNP, they're definitely going to move up a bracket. I also really like the emphasis I'm seeing on buffing Grimwraths (and probably Doomseekers too) You can't have a proper Slayer army without crazed, killy foot heroes.

The throwing axes never mattered much anyway, so it's not a big deal, but nerfing them to 5s and 5s seems kinda random. Still, 2 wounds and 2 attacks for Hearthguard Berserkers is pretty huge. And exactly what I predicted, so heh. In any event definitely buffs them up to being proper elites. +1 damage vs monsters for Aurics is a nice little buff. It's not game-changing, but combined with giving them two wounds and probably a lodge that buffs them, really nice. Looks like no Battleline Magmadroths, but mount traits for every Magmadroth is pretty cool and assuming they've been buffed could make for an interesting army. Don't know if it's enough to make me get a 4th magmadroth though, I'll have to wait and see. What's really interesting to me though is the Greyfyrd lodge. I...may need to buy some more Grimwrath Berserkers. Edit: Also, sneaky little Hearthguard buff, both weapons have 2" reach now, that's definitely new. Having a prayer that grants +1 saves combined with presumably the Battlesmith still doing his thing is really nice. And the more I Look at the targeted buffs to foot melee heroes, I definitely think I need to look at getting like 2 more Grimmies. It's an inexpensive way to support a new army style. Also, they don't say it, but I think Berserk Fury replaces the after-save on Vulkites, it's largely the same fluff text as their existing ability. Which is fine really, having double the wounds already makes them tough battleline units, and the free attacks on death is intimidating.

One way or another it's going to be really interesting to see what GW do with Fyreslayers. We've only seen a few updated tomes so far, so it's hard to establish a trend. Blades of Khorne was a popular army that really just needed a quick facelift and got it. FEC were quite dated with a small unit range but still pretty solid and surprisingly popular, the new rules seem to have really caused them to take off. Fyreslayers never really caught on to start with, and their armybook is one of the oldest in AoS. Combined with the model/expense problem I think a full re-write is the only thing that could possibly salvage them. They need to be fun to play and easy-ish to get into, especially with no shiny new units to pull people in. Here's hoping, I guess. Personally I've got a medium sized collection* of Fyreslayers, which is to say what would be a full army for most other factions, but Fyreslayers, so... *One of every type of hero, including Magmadroths, 40 vulkites, 20 hearthguard berserkers and 10 aurics. I still need to finish painting half the Hearthguard so I'm looking forward to this weeks previews in part to decide if I need/want to buy anything else. I don't really want to get another Start Collecting box but if they do the Battleline Magmadroth thing I'll think about it. Painting Magmadroths is surprisingly not a big time sink in any case.