acr0ssth3p0nd

So, back to actual rumors... What do we think for the two upcoming destruction battletomes? Ogurs, Gitz, or BigBois?

EDIT: Never mind, just saw the mod post!

Yeah, the complains aren't that they're overpowered as a faction, but that they have two units are actively unfun to play against. A lot of people report having a less-good time when they play against those units, regardless of whether or not they win the game.

Yep, just put some Wild Riders in a 600 point PtG list. Hard to fit a lot of our good stuff in 600 points, but Wild Riders are a nice little unit that functions like mini-Spiteriders. And with the new Overgrown terrain mechanic, it makes it less risky to get them in close as a supporting unit in front line fights.

You know the name of box will be a Big V Small pun...

I gotta say, it's nice to see GW being willing to change things beyond points - we're getting changes to Battleline status alongside points, and they are even using White Dwarf to drop warscrolls and datasheets. I know for a fact that I've bought more copies of White Dwarf since they started doing so, and I'd love to see the "cards used to release new and update existing warscrolls" release model be used even more. Releasing new/updated cards in the GHB packet would add a tonne of value to that, as well. The cards are a great tool on the tabletop, and I'm sure they are cheaper to produce than full Battletomes.

I think I'm gonna do something Revenant- and Kurnoth-heavy for my FLGS's PTG campaign, with the Heartwood grove. Start with an Arch-rev and Branchwych, Gossamids for nasty screening, Lancers for mobility, and Kurnoths for battleline and punch, then expand with an Arch-Rev, Tree-Revs, and Durthu. For events, I might try an Entmoot list, with a bunch of Treelords, Lady of Vines, and some Tree-revs for that competitive edge.

Overall, absolutely, the new tome is fantastic. Folks are getting weirdly hyped over tree-revs, but I've said my piece on that. Drycha and Spite-revs came out of it well, and that's a big deal for me!

Sure, and that role is still "sit on an unoccupied point far away from everything and hope for the best," which, sure, is very useful, and just as boring and ill-fitting for the models' narrative and visual themes as it has ever been. Yep! Just another reason why the Tree-Rev changes are underwhelming - I see few reasons, if any, to use those commands on the revs instead of a bigger, more important model. AOD might be good to keep them alive from some shooting, but there's only so much you can do with a 5+ save. That's not to mention they can't reroll charges anymore, so you're not going to be charging from deep strike, and they aren't worth a first activation in the Fight phase if you do get there. So much of the new hype for tree-revs is all theory-crafting in ideal scenarios, rather than looking at the army as a whole. It's the epitome of the trope of "forum-goers who don't actually play games." Tree-revs are now slightly better in certain areas of a role that's admittedly very useful, but hardly the most engaging or thematically-appropriate.

Man, after the token changes to the tree-revs that don't significantly help them in their role, I was a bit worried about Drycha - glad to see her come out of this so well!

Man, I'm just sitting over here waiting for the Sylvaneth Path to Glory rules!

Now that is rad. I've been looking for a chance to buy the ThighQueen, and this might be it! I'm hoping Drycha is still a powerhouse, too.

Beyond the teleport, they're the definition of "jack of all trades, master of zilch." They're an objective taker, with no way to boost a charge from teleporting, and drastically insufficient ability to remove chaff from objectives. Assuming 100 points for a min-sized unit of clan rats, and assuming the tree-revs can make the charge, 110 points of tree-revs will kill an average of 4 clan rats. That leaves you with 16 clan rats, who can then kill an average of 1 tree rev (instead of 2) and leave you with 4 tree revs instead of 3. An average of 3 more clan rats flee from morale, leaving you with 4 tree revs and 13 clan rats! I wonder who controls the objective now? Spoiler, it's still the clan rats. If the tree-revs had a reliable charge, you could make a case for running a reinforced unit to perform that role better, but they don't.

Lovely. So, the playstyle of the lithe, bare-chested elf infantry is "tank hits, hope to maybe do some chip damage." What active and engaging gameplay that totally reflects the models and their lore. /s And it doesn't even make them better at their role of objective-grabbing. Turns out that killing an average of 4 clan rats leaves you with 16 clan rats, who can then kill an average of 1 tree rev (instead of 2) and leave you with 4 tree revs instead of 3. An average of 3 more clan rats flee from morale, leaving you with 4 tree revs and 13 clan rats! I wonder who controls the objective now? Spoiler, it's still the clan rats. And that's assuming the tree-revs can make the charge in the first place. Look, if folks are glad for the extra wound, I'm happy for them. But it does not help them in their role, and I would argue that it also doesn't reflect the visual and narrative themes of the models, either.

No offense boosts for tree-revs?

As a connoisseur of Sword YouTube, I do love when games make spears useful and distinct from standard "hand weapons". However, I also bloody hate: - Measuring ranges of 1" and 2" for blobs of models - how the difference between a 25 and 32mm base is an actual, measurable effect on unit balance Maybe the solution is to measure melee ranges in terms of "how many models can you fight through" rather than inches, with most models with bases bigger than 40mm gain a keywork like "hulk" and count as 2 models for this purpose, and behemoths count as 3. You're still referencing weapon reach and each model's base size (or a rough equivalent), but at least it's all just a simple visual check - you don't have to break out the rulers and do conversions from metric to imperial!

Exactly what I've been saying! Personally, I don't care if Tree-revs to get an extra wound because that doesn't help them in their role! I'd prefer instead that they get better at actively charging and chopping up small heroes and min-sized chaff units that are already on backline objectives.

Shield-maiden Fyreslayers! Ironically, they end up being the only ones that aren't mostly-naked, and are instead absolute units clad in armor so heavy they're like mini-steam-tanks. Oh, and their tower shields have built-in flamethrowers.

I've been slowly building up my Gitz in anticipation for this! (Also because I'm working on a skirmish game called Age of Squigmar.)

Someone in the Rumor thread pointed out to me that, functionally, this kinda already exists, in that having an enemy unit within 3" of one of your Wyldwoods often means that you can't place a unit more than 9" away from it while still being within teleport distance of the wood. So, yeah, I'm inclined to agree that the additional number of starting teleport destinations through overgrown terrain, combined with the teleport range now expanded from 6" to 9", is overall a net positive. Hopefully it also becomes easier to plop down more overgrown terrain and/or Wyldwoods as the game progresses. And we haven't even seen the Seasons of War!

Shoot, you're probably right! And this is why actual gameplay experience is important, folks.

You've been saying this with such certainty over the last few weeks that I'm starting to suspect you have a source on the inside... In all seriousness, we haven't seen all of the allegiance abilities yet, and the weaknesses of the new Wyldwood setup are, at worst, a neutral change from what we already have. I'm excited to see what the Seasons of War can do, and cautiously optimistic for Tree and Spite-revenants getting the boosts they need to play a more active role in the game.

Yeah, that's my concern as well. We'll just have to see how it turns out.

Well, if the article calling Tree- and Spite-Revs "hard hitters" that are "fragile" is anything to go by, we'll be seeing those two units get an offensive boost. Not sure how it'll help the spites, but it means that tree-revs can potentially be more proactive in taking backfield objectives from units of 10 chaff and small heroes. Bumping the tree-rev to 3 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/D1 (from their current 2 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/D1) would mean they could reliably cut through 4-6 1-wound 4+ save chaff models, leaving the rest to run from battleshock.

That's true! Though it seems the mortal wound effects of the trees are tied only to Wyldwoods, not Overgrown Terrain, and it remains to be seen how the Treelord Ancient will play. They mention also that Tree- and Spite-Revs will be fragile, which indicates that they won't be getting a 2nd wound. I'm okay with this, TBH, as long as they get an upgrade to their offense to encourage a more "active" use of the models. Tree-revs are cool, but their function is, essentially, to sit there as a threat to your opponent and force them to keep units in the back to guard objectives. Very useful, but hardly the most interesting thing in gameplay. And spite-revs... well, they're basically a non-starter. You likely will be using your 1 allegiance teleport for something bigger, and they don't currently have a built-in teleport like tree-revs (hint hint GW). I'd love to see tree-revs get an offense boost so they become active backline-objective clearers and assassins - not so powerful as to threaten notable units, but certainly able to reliably take out a unit of 10 chaff or a small hero, with the musician now there to help them get reliable charges from teleporting. Then, spite-revs get the teleport and a refocus on debuffing enemy units and heroes by cancelling out command abilities or dealing MWs at short range by doing contested rolls against an enemy's leadership. Both units still have unique roles that use the extreme mobility of the teleport to different ends, so it's not like one will be clearly better than the other.