Rachmani

That's so true! And it makes perfect sense. So much in fact, that it should be clear to see. =D

So, I got the Stormcasts from the Soul Wars Box lying around and they've kinda grown on me. Are there good (good is enough, doesn't have to be super duper good) Sacrosanct only lists that incorporate the full range of the new models?

Two other things I want to put up for discussion, while we're at it. 1. How do you guys think the Arkanaut Company should be adjusted? Personally I think they're lackluster in the melee department (but appear to be designed as melee-/ranged hybrids) & strangely squishy for dwarfs. 2. What's up with the weapon profiles? They're all over the place, often completely detrimental to how they look on the actual models & have like no consistency. I'm looking at you, Skyhooks.

In terms of their melee potential you want them to have saws only. But if you know you won't get them all into fighting range anyway you can add a special weapon or two, let them shoot and remove them as first casualties should your target somehow survive your Khemist buffed onslaught. As Khemists are pretty expensive I'd always take one & maybe field two but only if I have 2 units that need the buff at the same time. 3 or more in 2000 points are complete overkill & you'd be better of with bigger units to buff.

You're leaving out the Riggers again, but anyway. As Kramer said we probably won't agree on this, so let's just see what (and more importantly when) GW will do with the Overlords. They deserve some changes and the sooner the better at that. Way too cool a concept to leave it half-baked.

That's a general problem with battle lines across multiple factions. But I too think the main problem is 3x10 instead of 1x30. 1x30 would fit in many armies.

That's what I meant. Thanks @Kramer for explaining it better! You're basically saying the same thing, @stratigo. The Skyhook should be nerfed. And I'm saying nerf the Khemist instead, make him less swingy, see where we stand & buff Volleygun & Sky Pike (and points) accordingly. The difference can also be seen with Skywardens & Endrinriggers. The Latter double their attacks, the former don't get picked. Do you want to nerf Endrinriggers, too? In order to buff Skywardens? I'm saying nerf the Khemist, see where both units stand, then buff. Now, Skywardens have their own problems, but Khemist doesn't help their cause either.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't exist in the KO army in one form or another (+1 attack Command ability maybe?). I'm saying that I think it should be part of an overhaul so that our RANGED units won't be held back by its existence. In short I'm against "must have"s and "only viable with X" (not to be mistaken for "more viable with X" which imo is good synergy). But I'm completely with you that no change should be made without an overhaul.

We're not saying the Khemist is the problem for the army. We're saying he's the problem regarding future buffs. Many armies get +1 attack but to my knowledge only through command abilities. Static buffs most often come in the form of +1 to hit/wound, rerolls or extra saves. I agree on the matter of admiral & endrinmaster. The former could be helped by the Arkhelian King treatment - meaning Skywardens become battle line when he's the general.

Well, to my knowledge - and I sadly can't point you to where I read it, so take it with a grain of salt - the KO are at least the "other faction" (besides SCE) that are confirmed to get a new battle tome some time in the future.

This is definitely something I'd consider "part of the deal". Steamlined, easy to implement, good for all types of weapons - like the Volleyguns that look fantastic, feel like they should have a place in a generic KO army - but just don't, because Khemist as of now is just awful on them & without any buffs they just don't hit well enough. The melee equivalent of Thunderers would be my pick. I refer to them as "Ironbreakers on Airships" =D. With Cutlass, Shield and a short-range gun in the cutlass (or shield) because reasons! Also 2 new ships. The "no transport all shoot" version of the frigate & a small Gunhauler size transporter. All 3 together basically make up my complete wish list. A good way would be some changes sooner than later, and a revision of the Battletome in the foreseeable future - meaning some time in 2019. We're definitely talking full on new battle tome here. But I think it's kind of justified here. KO are so cool, so thematically interesting, have such great models that it's a shame they feel so pigeonholed and kind of incomplete.

I think we've established that any changes to the Khemist would have to be met with compensation elsewhere in the book. In fact that whole discussion is based on that. Weaken the one thing that has to big an impact in order to be able to bring the rest on par.

What about generic +1 to hit (or wound) and a Command ability that buffs both instead of one on the affected unit (units?)? Could be the sweet spot.

That would depend on the overall "balance overhaul", I guess. There would be many ways to incorporate the Khemist-Buff. Rerolls, +1 to hit, to wound, both, something inbetween. +1 Attack via command ability. The list is long. It all depends on the rest, because without the Khemist-Buff as is, KO would need an overhaul & a few new units to fill the blanks even more. With that being said, I'm all for it. If a Buffer leads to a unit being nerfed, the buffer is probably too strong.

Instead of (or maybe in addition to) 3+ hit I could also see "+1 attack when charging" as a special rule for them. Would compensate some of their weakness & also make them less reliant of the Khemist buff. But something else that occurred to me. They did get their points increased, didn't they? Do you guys think that's an indicator of a 2.0 book some time soon? February or something like that?

It's basically the Khemist that singlehandedly makes Skywardens so much worse than the Riggers. They're worse without the buff (except in units so large the 2" reach makes a difference) but much worse with the buff. 4+ to hit REALLY hurts them & I'm not sure why they don't hit on 3 (rest stays the same). They do get better with "Settle the Grudges" though and that's where I see some potential but probably not enough.

I think it's fairly safe to say both have their merits. However one could argue wether to take 2 units with one weapon type each or mix them up. That's assuming we'll field cleansing phalanx and hence 2 units of Evocators.

Looks good, too. Bit of variation both visually & tactically.

I just think AotSea is just much more flexible than the AotStorm. I might however underestimate how good 12 wounds and no stat-loss are. That's indeed super strong.

Sea looks like it fits better in most cases. Storm imo needs to be a 1 spell caster in order to compete.

I as of now don‘t have any Idoneth Players in my group (or, more precisely I have, but they wanna paint first) & am wondering how the „real world difference“ between the Morrsarr & the Ishlaen is. Real world difference as in „what units you can come across can either defeat or soak“. The math is relatively clear, but how it translates into actual game experience is a different story, so that‘s why I‘m asking. ?

Exactly. And if she wasn‘t Hammers only, I‘d be ok with that. But as it is it feels just a tad wrong to auto-include the Gryph Charger Dude.

I‘m talking about the fact that the whole Sacrosanct Chamber is thematically built around Dracolines & the Tauralon - but the guy with the best command Ability (who also has a pretty potent spell) rides a Gryph Charger. The Gryph Charger on the other hand is the mount of choice for the Vanguard. But the command ability of the Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger doesn’t affect Vanguard units. It‘s instead specifically for Sacrosanct Chamber Units. It‘s a bit as if there was a Lord Celestant with a potent command ability that affects the whole Dracothian Guard. Except he neither rides a Dracoth nor a Star Drake but an „Angry Moa“ that completely breaks with the visuals of the rest of your army.

Is anyone else here kind of annoyed, that the Lord Arcanum with the best Command Ability is the one with the thematically least fitting mount? I‘m off course talking about the Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger and strictly from a fluff perspective. The model is good & Ride the Wind fits the Lord Arcanum‘s playstyle well.

@Kitty wrote about playing to your respective community. That‘s imo definitely the way to go. What you could also, but in the same spirit do is, to help your club built more competitive lists. That way you can have fluffy games if you want (where everyone cuts back) or „harder“ ones, where you go all out - but everyone with good lists, not just you. Some factions basically built themselves, others need more tinkering. Help them, get better together!