Nos

Because I like my Stormcast army being comprised of Stormcast, not lizards. I think you missed my point. Liberators as above can hold out to pretty much anything for as long as is required., which is all they're for. They're not there to do everything or survive forever, they're there to serve a role for minimum investment while all the rest of your army wins the game. As I said, not in every match up, but in certain instances. I'm not saying it's going to work at the most formidable of competitions or anything, but given the advice was requested by someone who is new to the game that hardly matters. What I've outline has worked multiple times against multiple opponents, including netlists etc. Does that make Liberators undeniably amazing? Course not. But they're not bad units for 100 points at all and excellent in certain circumstances. There are many facets to the hobby, including the rule of the cool. The guy said he much preferred how Liberators look. He can absolutley take lots of Liberators and they will do a good job if he plays them right. In most instances, that won't be as efficient as Sequitors on a pure model to model basis, but there's more ways to play than straight power gaming. And unless you're playing someone much better than you, I'd argue you that a good general could use Liberators and use the points saved elsewhere to good effect. Sequitors are notoriously over powered, that’s the issue, Liberators aren’t bad they’re just not as good as an undercosted unit. You can win without spamming them and I’ve found it enjoyable to do so.

I think it's situational. In respect to getting the most value out of your points, especially with an army which struggles with maneuvering, I think Liberators serve a purpose in certain circumstances. If you want to either create a battleline as an anvil or hold objectives, and all you want from said unit is to not die fast and choke the point, Liberators can do this as well as Sequitors with more models for less. If you need a sacrificial unit to hold up some Morghast or Kurnoth Hunters or something, that's a waste of Sequitor's potential killing power, which they do have, and you've lost points on the board you could have used elsewhere. It's not a waste of Liberators potential-you're getting the maximum amount from them. Meanwhile the points saved there can be spent on units whose purpose is exclusively to do damage, in a position where they're able to do it. My current default strategy is to have a line of Liberators whose job it is to hold my part of the board, buffed with SD and a Castellant and a Priest and Azyr Halo, and then have pretty much everything else off the board. Enemy can't bring all of it's forces to bear on that line because they have to keep things back in anticipation of your elite units, and a big lump of Liberators doesn't cost that many points but is saving on a 2+ rerolling ones and causing mortal wounds on a 6 and healing wounds on a 5+, and if you take the requisite spell and that and the priest's prayer goes off you can make an enemy -2 to hit. You can choke up a huge portion of the enemy for a small points outlay and then use every other point in your army for elites. Currently favour Evos, Evos on Dracolines and then hit squads of 5 sequitors who with their 3 maces each are bringing more attacks to bear with a smaller footprint and more versatility than a single unit of 15, and ideally served to nick objectives and push others off them. I think good opponents make you waste the value of your own units and maximise their own, and Liberators in that sense can provide a far greater economy for holding portions of the board than Sequitors in certain scenarios. Against an elite or evasive army I would probably take Sequitors because straight trades are more likely, but against a Horde army or one dependent on Characters I would take the Liberators for them to grind on and then let my Elites take the game to their backline. Also, and just as important, I actually love the models and enjoy their Yeomanry presence on the table. They make a nice visual default that enhances the charisma of the Elite units.

I might 🙂 I tend to just write stuff into my phone on the bus though, not sure I want to use my free time to actually sit down and compose anything just now. I will ping those who have contributed to the discussion if I do!

I specifically addressed *that*argument shortly after the post that was quoted, and the points that I raised there havent been addressed. However as the Mod posted shortly after all that, this isn’t the place to discuss it anyway so im not wanting to take up any more space with it here.

I explained my reasons at length and I also explained elsewhere how the guard analogy dosent fit for several reasons. Obviously feel free to disagree but I’m not swayed by your absence of argument or engagement with mine.

Yeah this. I don’t think we need anything more to help us be effective. And if you want batallions for fluff etc there’s no shortage of good stuff in that respect either. Compared to every other faction we have loads of everything in every respect.

Such a shame that you can’t take the Battalion that essentially broke the last version of the game right. It was basically DDOS with dice. It needed to die.

Or maybe fieldcraft stuff like stakes, trenches etc

Cogs, pendulum and geminids are pretty reliable additions to many armies in my experience. SC Dais is a regular in 2000 points for me. I them as an “I’ve got points left” option. Nicer to something than nothing.

WD errata was confirmed by GW as legal yeah

I hated rank and file when I was getting into Warhammer, like really hated it, but think it was because the new multi part regiment sets were being released and they were the new hotness. About half-2/3 of my SC are replicas of each other though in each unit as are most AOS armies now really, and I honestly don’t even notice at this point.

I guess something *is* happening there. I think it’s more that they are focussing on the Metal Realm with multiple releases to give it a sense of place and character and flesh it out tangentially via those things.

Not played them since Soul Wars was released at which point they weren’t really an issue because it was just start collecting stuff. So it’s not that I’m struggling because I’ve not actually played them properly really. But my ignorance of how SC interact with Night haunt is making me nevous. I know they depend on heroes a lot and am basically operating on the assumption that if I get them I’ll win. Its only 1000 points which is the other issue. Wouldn’t be so worried above that but I feel with a lack of bodies and wounds I might get swamped as they have the capacity to get a good blender synergy going. A lot of what makes SC good at smaller games feels negated by Nighthaunt at the same level.

Can I get some vs Nighthaunt suggestions pweez

Detest is a strong word man. Of all the things in the world to detest right now, a specific form of fairytale over a slightly different one seems like an odd choice. You might not agree with the lore but it’s harmless and not remotley hateful or problematic. And the free rules are something you can apply to literally any minis in existence, you don’t have to even rub up against the lore if you don’t want, play it using Warhammer minis, historical minis, honestly you don’t have to read the word Stormcast ever again and you can still play the game in its entirety if the system is what you like. Go forth and enjoy thyself. Given all that freedom and flexibility it seems weird to use such strong language about something you can simply ignore. Among a fan base of people who either don’t hate it or have the capacity to look past the things they don’t like about it (which it is easy to do) rolling in and explaining you detest it isn’t going to come across well.

Playing 1000 point vs Night Haunt tomorrow. Not played them in a while, I think the majority of it is the Soul Wars set. What should I be watching for and what’s desirable to field against them? I have at least one unit of most options to pick from.

Orcs have been popular for decades and they have no depth what so ever. They're whimsical hooligans who live to fight. That's it. Age of Sigmar is very popular and it's full of non-human factions tied to the pantheisitc narrative. People seem to be enjoying them plenty.

The Imperial Guard occupy a completely different universes with a completely different tone. They work for the same reason the Empire worked in the Old World. Humanity is the starting point for both those fictions, in which the survival of humanity against a multitude of threats is the main story. Humanity prevails or at least preserves it's existence through faith and courage and ingenuity but also through dictatorial theocratic coercion. That's not humanity in Age of Sigmar. The humans n that scenario lost, in the end, their qualities were not sufficient, they were overwhelmed by the forces which now dicate the Age of Sigmar. It's a new epoch in which humans are no longer the bulwark against entropy, The courage and faith of the humanity who showed those qualities has been recognised in the form of their ressurection as Stormcast. They are the essence of what is best in humanity and they are it's best hope. The Stormcast exist precisely because the best of Humanity is not enough. The closest Warhammer analogue for AOS is pre Heresy and the Emperor. Mutiple relams and worlds with different inhabitants, creatures, ecosystems etc. The Emperor arrives but he places his faith in the Primarchs, superhumans, who then create legions of Super Humans in their own image, because humanity is too weak to fight for itself. It's not just about Humans being around in this crazy world of monsters etc. If that's all it was then sure Humans fit fine n AOS. But the problem of humanity persisting as a major protagonist within the Mortal Realms is that it fundamentally contradiction the lore up to this point in which humanity has been decisively proven to be inadequate against the forces of the other races in the Mortal Realms.

Not mistaken at all. I said the Gods drive the narrative and the armies in AOS are the means by which they do it. That’s simply correct. The Age of Myth was a creation era in which the Gods were active in the forging of the world. But they haven’t ceased to be involved in the world since then have they? Are you telling me that Nagash, Sigmar et al aren’t involved in the Age of Sigmar, plotting and scheming and outmanoeuvring each other with their armies, as I said? I didn’t say humans were annihilated either. As I said, humans are there, they’re invokved. But they’re observers. I was talking about a faction within the game, and Solely human armies-which is what a human army would be-would be annihilated logically speaking. An army full of troops with a less murderous profile than a blood reaver, exciting. Unless of course you put them with lots of non-human units which removes the appeal of having a relatable yeoman force. There’s nothing remotely unique about black powder, swords, acting with discipline etc, all the things you mention. There’s multiple armies in AOS who specialise in that or in more powerful tactics and weapons already with a naturally stronger profile than humans to begin with. That’s the conundrum. Find something that is relatable which also can compete against extraordinary super human opposition without losing its humanity. What you propose isn’t going to fit that bill. It’s a far more complex problem than people are thinking it will be to make a human *army* for AOS. And that’s before even thinking about the aesthetic and visual design which is another biggie.

It has a foundation. An age of Myth and Legend, Gods fighting for supremacy using armies fashioned in their own image. Warhammer had a foundation of humanity and apocalypse. It was always the End Times. They boxed themselves in with that. They’re not going to do it again. Not only that but they would be fools to try. Warhammer has 30 years of pedigree. There’s no way they could equal what it did in respect to what it’s flavour and character was. Humans are basically just in AOS to provide audience perspective. But basically they’re just observers. They get killed or they go mad or they fight alongside other factions or whatever but unlike in Warhammer they are far from being key players. The driving force in AOS are the deities themselves and they have specific avatars in the form of their armies that drive events. Humans are a species who co-exist in the world but that’s all they are. Question-how do you make a human AOS faction fit? Black Powder was a big reason for human ascendency in Warhammer but in AOS it’s not anything special. Basically in a world run by Gods and monsters humans are just going to get annihilated by everything. Unless of course you make them Super Human, but A) they already have those and B) the whole argument as to why you need a human faction in the first place dies as soon as they’re not human anymore. Or conversely the Stormcast are obsolete if regular joes can defend their own lands and wage their own wars competently. I’d love to see what aesthetic they came up with but the army of a relatable faction in a world of hyper fantasy and legend is fundamentally contradictory.

I meant fresh in respect to being Sigmarised I suppose. The funny thing about people complaining about the new factions is that I personally feel the new factions are basically the same as they were before, just more so. Ironjawz are more Black Orcy orcs. Gloomspite Gitz are way more Night Goblin than Night Goblins ever were in Warhammer. Daughters are are a Khainite Dark Elf army on steroids. Sylvaneth are a whole army of Wood Elf Tree Kin. Fundamentally in my experience it means *more* Warhammer stuff actually gets on the table than it ever did, because rather than being lost in a massive roster 3/4 of which never saw play, you have smaller factions representing that whole roster across multiple armies in which a larger number of them are viable.

AOS is releasing both books and factions at a rate Warhammer never came close to. There’s Warscrolls for pretty much everything from Warhammer still. But it should be pretty clear now that AOS and Warhammer are different things and in the future all factions will be unique and fresh, that’s what it’s building towards. But as I say-you still can play with pretty much any models you have in the meantime. The expectation that all armies should be as viable on the tabletop as each other is entirely unrealistic though, nor is it a precedent that is being ignored. Warhammer never had that over its last 4 iterations at least.

Wyldwoods are crazy good, they don’t need anything. I do tvthink the terrain piece was meant to be their “thing” so much as it was the test case for armies having a terrain piece as part of their faction design. Sylvaneth remain a strong faction since their inception. You never know with GW of course but from a pure logic perspective they’re probably the least faction in need of anything along with Stormcast I would say. They play well, great models, they have a real character, their place in the Lore is well established etc.

I’m talking about Curse of the Spider God only, not the unit or item

Oof so it is. No way that’s not getting a nerf. Seeing as ones always fail in those instances presumably it means re-rolling One’s abilities are moot? Is that how it’s being interpreted?