Nos

Agreed. Especially weird at the GHB release to always see people comparing profiles as though that's all there is. Sylvaneth units pay a tax for the ability to shape the board, manoeuvre, summon and heal and they are among the best in the game at this. They are not about going toe-to-toe with anyone, they're about managing one or two favourable combats in your favour and otherwise ignoring or negating all the others while you play objectives. In particular not only do they have excellent late game nabbing potential they also have the ability to change the shape and nature of the board late game meaning opponents often are not in a position to act as they would maybe anticipate in the final few turns. A lot of players in particular who complain about abcense of space for woods at the start seem to just stop trying to summon them later on when theres less units to block them. They are *just as useful*. You can summon a wood, 10 dryads and make a fortress on turn 4 at a point when most things that would have thr ability to chew through it are depleted or dead. They lack the auto devastation aspects of the favoured and imbalanced current meta factions but a Sylvaneth player has excellent tools to negate these if played well. The amount of posts which focus on issues around profiles etc just suggests to me people are not playing them to their strengths.

Oh I agree it's in a better place than it ever has been. As a system though I dont think its remotley elegant or well designed, but it's not why I hobby nor do I think its GW's focus either. It's a million times better than Warhammer ever was as a game as well. I've not played since Feb but I have lots of everything so I tend to take a slightly different list each game, I was trying to come up with something shooty with lots of bow hunters and some sisters of the Watch at that point with an allied waywatcher. That was all secondary to my main passion project though which was modelling and painting my Kurnothi army, some pics below. Creativity is 80% my hobby focus.

Rough spot is massively over stating it. There are things that could be improved, certainly. But Sylvaneth prior to the second book were notoriously unfun to play against and quite exploit rich. These things come and go. In the grand scheme of things the nerfs or the essence of Sylvaneth with a second book is comparatively minor compared to how other powerful factions offen end up. AOS is a lousy game to play if you want balance and consistency though . The majority of armies struggle against the armies that Sylvaneth do. That's because those armies are imbalanced and over powered and require very little "playing". At least with Sylvaneth can you still compete for most of the game, if you play to your strengths. If you want to win or compete at a high level in tournaments etc in AOS its always been the case you need to be prepared to buy a new army every 6 months or so, realistically. The concept of favouring one army at multiple tournaments and winning with it simply dosent apply, so Sylvaneth's failure to remedy that is moot.

The issue with this is that you have a very good player who has convincingly made the case for them not just with words but through tournament placing. The Sylvaneth are a lot of what I like about AOS at it's best, as above, but their current position exposes for me a lot of the issues with AOS too. I think the best Sylvaneth players demonstrate that there is real objective skill to the game and its systems, through the use of clever movement, placing, counter play etc. They aren't weak but they're sort of a neutral gear. To make them work *you* have to make them work. Profiles and allegiance abilities are not enough. But the over powered factions also illustrate that any nuance and elegance in the game is frequently just obliterated by smothering it all in the million dice re-rolls in one turn easily facilitated by the crazy profiles and allegiance abilities of other factions. In short-every mechanic matters when playing Sylvaneth. Whereas with Petrifex et al you can simply ignore most of them if so inclined.

Sylvaneth are for me exactly where AOS should be rules wise- good internal balance, excellent thematic playstyle, engages with all phases of the turn, no -auto win or auto-pick options,requires synergy and strategy to win. I wish all other factions were as well designed. But Sylvaneth can still do well precisley because of the above qualities, they're not weak at all, its just that, as has always been the case with Warhammer, there are deeply imbalanced and over powerful factions where players dont have to play in nearly as considered or thoughtful manner to win with them. But as someone who would like to win because they played well, Sylvaneth are still a very fun option for me.

If you fancy Sylvaneth you can take 3 x 5 Revs or Spites then fill out with a combination of Kurnoth Hunters, Tree Monsters and Alarielle. Surprisingly degree of variety and mechanics available within those options.

That was 6th. Best edition in my opinion. 5th was Brets and Lizardmen.

Those Space Marines are more AOS than much of AOS is, as are the Sisters and Ad Mech. At this rate 3rd edition is just going to be 40k and AOS meeting up in the middle

The counterpoint is that from a playing perspective games dont really become redundant unless they have a server requirement. I can still play games I bought a decade ago, whereas a lot of armies people bought for GW systems dont have even half that shelf life if they're interested in the competitive side of the hobby.

I dont mean literally that they will reduce start collecting prices. I mean those are an example of GWs ability to create lower entry products and options if needed while still charging a premium for the majority of customers who continue to invest at that level

All armies at a GW tournament are GW minis though. GW dont care what those minis are so long as they made a profit off selling them, and that wont be affected by this.

I mean this is sort of what happened before though so they can throttle back. They didn't reduce prices per se but they introduced things like Start Collecting, Shadespire and Kill Team minis etc, that is to say things which were very good value, and that brought in a lot of people who were put off by the cost of individual kits. There are other ways of off-setting a reduced customer base due to expensive purchases if they need to, basically.

Why, you got a lot on at the moment?

Cowper of Secrets (Keeper of Moocrets?) aside, I actually really like the Aelfish stuff I have to say. I identified the move away from classical Greek influence to a War of 3 Kingdoms/East Asian aesthetic at the original reveal as obviously being a big influence on the Lumineth, and I'm pleased they went all out with that side of things. As with the Namarti I'm all for GW evolving through established Tolkienesque fantasy archetypes and going for something completely different to what came before. I still find the general lore in AOS to be very imprecise and abstract but the visual narrative in the races themselves and the stories that they tell through how they look is superb. It's also enjoyable to see a robust and extensive interpretation of Enlightenment and progress which isnt tied to a western Classical Antiquity or Renaissance influence in a Warhammer race. Real world Monocultural influence in most " Order" factions was definitely a weakness of the Old World and I'm glad they arent afraid to challenge that with AOS.

Mega Tron

I thought similar re Wraithknights. Similar to how Durthu is Eldar Avatar of Khaine in tree form.

If that were my argument fair play, but it's not. My argument is that after Chaos having had the monopoly on bovines, they should have done something to differentiate between an Order Faction utilising the form. Not make a more kid friendly KOS. Note that I've said nothing about the cow helmet dudes, no issues there. The Baphomet inspiration is a great point by the way, think you're correct there. But in which case all the more reason to come out with something completely different for a "Light" faction.

Yes I've seen reptile tails, as I said. I've seen them on Seraphon and Dragons and drakes and Cold Ones too. Is Slaanesh in their backstory somewhere? I haven't denied that the lore had influence. I just know that from what GW designers have said elsewhere in interviews, including John Blanche who heads up the entire team, that like most concept artists they begin with real world inspirations around themes then Warhammer-ify them. I simply cannot imagine how someone can see lore tidbits as being more central to the visual language of a Warhammer race than the existing cultural influences on which they are manifestly based. But thats opinions eh. You think you're right, I think I'm right. I have the grace not to call you silly though.

Precisley, they created an interesting fusion of real world cultural inspiration to provide a narrative which allows them to tell a visual story of corruption. I completely get that. I really enjoy the Slaaneshi shorthand in all the Aelf models. Heck I've been painting some Revenants and even they have that sort of angelic/demonic androgynous thing going on, especially without hair (see below). It's one of my favourite bits of new Warhammer lore, even if it's borrowed wholesale from 40k and the Eldar. Which is why I dont like the Bizzaro Aelf Keeper of Secrets. It's not subtle in the slightest. It feels like a clumsy attempt to communicate the whole thing for people who didnt get it up to this point. I've said my piece so not interested in arguing for the sake of it with anyone.

No that's how she looks because her designer made her that way, white clearly riffing on the existing Gorgon aesthetic established with the new Khainites before AOS even existed. Models come first with GW, always. Wheres this Slaaneshi serpentine inspiration then, besides a few snake tails? There is nothing remotely bull or oxen about the model besides its head. As you correctly bring up yet another chaos association with bovines to somehow disprove that they arent monopolized by chaos (?) , something I had already pointed out, you can nonetheless differentiate a different take on the bull with Chaos dwarves. They having had their design influenced by the tapestries of Assyrian and Bayblonian Empires have quite a different representation of bull forms-stocky, powerful, muscular, stout. The Lumineth monster is a complete replica of a Slaaneshi cow-form though. If it was something different , a differnt interpretation of a mythological cow beast, I wouldnt care. But it's not. Its exactly the same. I mean even just put it on 4 legs, you know, like a cow, not another twisted cow human creature (as befits Slaanesh or beastmen). But no. Apparently the Lumineth are so in awe of this beast and its character that the only part they're interested in is the head? Yeah, that's compelling .

As I said in my earlier post- Cow people or Slaanesh. Both pretty removed from Aelves. Or indeed the powerful, muscular redoubtable cattle of the mountains that supposedly are the aspect that the Aelves are imprinting here. A more noble and stoic form of Great Beast could totally work. But not another athletic statuesque human form with cow head.

No but they do have a monopoly on the very specific 2 storey Anthropomorphic Warrior Monster with Cow Head. It's a pretty specific thing to replicate. And it's not even like a stocky muscular oxen. It's a lithe androgyneous cow. If it had been released last year as the actual KOS no-one would have thought it out of place.

I think theres a difference between an easy verbal retcon and a deliberate aesthetic choice. DOK existing models had a Gorgonesque theme before AOS even existed and the Dark Elf range from which they came also had a strong serpent aspect. Especially given their release date I personally dont believe for a second that Morathi and Melussai were snakey because Slaanesh. They were snakey because Medusa and Gorgons and related mythology and Dark Elf/Drukhari influence (see also Warpfire Warlocks). But it's easy to go back and explain it as a Slaaneshi taint. Cool, even. But theres not been much of snakeishnes to Slaanesh. A tail to a hero here or there, but nothing prevalent. Namarti again are clearly aborted/corrupted as befitting their lineage but again they're not incorporating anything exclusively Slaaneshi in their make up. But the bovine thing has been synonymous with the Keeper of Secrets and Slaanesh basically since Slaanesh has existed. The only other cows in AOS are actual cows and people and monsters formed from cows. I just find it a stretch that despite Cow basically being shorthand for chaos in the whole of AOS the Lumineth see them as being great. I mean the cow thing certainly fits very well with the more East Asian cultural influence in the range but as someone who has done Warhammer for 20 years it's weird to be told that cows are now something different. Not least because one if the reasons Slaanesh has the whole cow thing was because it too was very influenced by East Asian cultural archetypes. And that's the other thing; the shared Aelf aesthetic has usually been reserved for, well, the Aelves, it's been primarily a racial tweak among the Aelvish members eg Namarti. Whereas Slaanesh has an armoured warrior cow headed monster which is an incarnation of an aspect of their religion. And the Lumineth have an armoured warrior cow headed monster which is an incarnation of their religion. I like the idea behind the shared heritage as I said, and I'm willing to wager now there will be some sort of "their symmetry and zeal and belief in their own beauty and superiority belies the dreadful belief to those who can seee it that there is perhaps not so much that separates them from their hated kin" type plot going on. But to have literally the same kind of avatar feels clumsy to me.

The cow angle is weird. I liked how new Slaanesh incorporated a lot of Aelf, given the genesis of that whole arc. But Aelf incorporating Slaanesh the other way round seems a weird choice. Cool model though.

Meh it's just drip feed marketing stuff, always is pretty soulless.