dmorley21
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Posts posted by dmorley21
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I figured it is time to switch the discussion thread with the start of a new edition.
I also know a lot of Nighthaunt players are down on the faction, but I remain excited. My first list is going to be a two drop, as I think being able to choose to go second will be a way to give the army a boost.
I was also interested by the list that can be found at Goonhammer here:
Goonhammer Article with Nighthaunt List
So let’s start by talking about what lists we’re planning to try and what our experiences are with actual gameplay.
Cheers.
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On 7/1/2021 at 5:47 PM, Austin said:
Just got the book today.
As I start looking at new lists, I am a bit apprehensive about the impact of the new reinforcement rules on Ymetrica and Helon lists that use the unlocked battlelines. Though, I suppose with the new unit cohesion rules Stoneguard will operate far better in minimum sized units anyway.
Is there something that says unlocked battleline units can't be reinforced twice?
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Isn’t October typically a month for larger releases? With the Hobgrots clue, I wonder if it might be AoS Chaos Dwarves.
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18 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:
I haven't had the chance to view all the FAQs. Did any other Mortarchs get this ability? Or was it just the God characters?
Only Mortarchs in Ossiarch. The ones in Soulblight don't get this ability, and if you take Nagash in Soulblight, you don't get this ability. I assume this is to represent how highly militarized Ossiarch is.
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1 hour ago, Ranzou said:
While all other main named characters gain Warmaster keyword to be "always generals in addition" Olinder doesn't.
That's a shame.
Nagash is the weakest Warmaster, lol.
20 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:NH keep getting screwed for literally no reason
Very few models got this ability from what I'm seeing. I don't think Lady Olynder is quite in the same tier as Morathi, Nagash, Alarielle, Teclis, etc; still it would have been nice, especially for The Emerald Host.
Also, with the updates, the only units in our army that can't issue commands are Myrmourn Banshees, Chainghasts, and the Mourngul (assuming it stays).
What does everyone think about our endless spells now?
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Well Bladegheists and the Black Coach can now issue commands per the day 1 FAQ. So slight buffs there.
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2 hours ago, JLee said:
I wish to double check my reading comprehension of the 3.0 core rules. For the new rules regarding stacking triggered abilities (ex, mortal wounds on 6s vs exploding hits on 6s). Does this mean that the combo of giving a Cairn Wraith the shadow blade is now useless? Now having to choose either the shadowblade D3 mortal wounds vs the Frightful touch 2 mortal wounds on 6s, instead of having D3 +2?
That's correct. So that build is no more. With how much harder it is to get artefacts, I think that build would be pretty rare to begin with in this edition.
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To @Aaranis and others:
In a few test games, I've actually found it easier to get Harridans and Bladegheists into combat this edition than second edition. This is for a couple of reasons:
- The change to the pile in rules. Change the wording to be "no further than it was to the enemy unit" instead of "...the nearest enemy model" was something I overlooked a bit for Nighthaunt, thinking with the army flying it wouldn't make a noticeable difference. In my test playing (just been testing), this has made a bigger difference than I imagined.
- Using the "sawtooth formation" as mentioned by Goonhammer or what MiniMagTray calls the "cloud formation" allows me to get just as many models into battle as before. Let's be clear - running units of 15-20 Bladegheists or Harridans in 2.0 also meant you wouldn't get all of your models into combat.
Now, I haven't had the same luck with Hexwraiths, so I'm going from a unit of 10 and 5 to two units of 5, which is a bummer for their output. They still help when they charge in with Olynder, for instance, but they're no longer a hammer.
I'm excited to give Nighthaunt a go in this edition, but will also be starting a second army.
I'm also skeptical that Nighthaunt will get a book this year (2021), as after 2.0 came out there was only one book - Beasts of Chaos. It seems to me like Nurgle (older), Idoneth (older), and Beasts of Chaos (almost as old and broken as their army needed their battalions to function more or less) are all possibilities to be updated before Nighthaunt. There's also the chance for a new army to leapfrog Nighthaunt's update.
When the army does get an update, I think there's some logical expectations that can be made:
- The bravery debuff will be a mirror of the one that the Soulblight Gravelords has. This would be a slight buff.
- More subfactions based on former battalions and possibly Legion of Grief.
- A monster. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the only model the army gets.
- A unit to get rewritten as a monster hunting unit. My guesses here would be Glaivewrath Stalkers and/or the Lord Executioner.
But, we'll see! In the meantime, I'd recommend playing around with the army before writing it off for this edition! I still hold that while maybe not better, the army won't be in a worse spot. It's also worth waiting to see what comes from the Day 1 FAQs/Designer Commentary/etc.
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11 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:
I went down the Facebook rabbit hole. If their rants are to be believed then apparently every faction article released for this new ruleset has at least one mistake. The conspiracy is that it's because they are operating under different warscrolls than we currently have. If I were to take a guess, though, Occam's Razor would suggest the writers, players, and editors are just under a time crunch and aren't catching mistakes.
But a point was made that I don't see the rules making a call on: Suppose your line of Reapers is accompanied by a Spirit Tournament and are facing a unit with 5+ models. You decide to use the CA All-out Attack. 1: Do you get to choose if the unit benefits from RRall or RR1, or are you forced to use one over the other based on some order of operations? And 2: Does adding +1 to hit change the above at all or have another hidden caveat?
7 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:As far as I understand you should be able to use both. The only restriction I'm aware of for hitting is a +1/-1 cap after modifiers. It doesn't say anything about restricting rerolls.
Page 4 and rules 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 are what you need to look at here.
The first thing worth noting, is that modifiers happen after the re-roll now, and not before. So you would never choose RR1 over RRall. And you can only ever re-roll a die once, so you cannot use both abilities.
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1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:
Nevermind. Nothing new and even a mistake. First the Metawatch article and now this.
Feels bad to see official blurbs about our army given so little import.
This has been the case for most of these articles, especially for armies that aren’t played much.
James Tinsdale is a great player, but is known for playing IDK. He does have a video of playing Nighthaunt against KO after BR:Be’Lakor on the JustPlay YouTube channel.
But theses articles are really focused for beginners.
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I've been out of town all week, so I have just been absorbing everything as it happens. Here's some thoughts that I haven't seen too many people mention on this forum:
- While Grimghast Reapers got cheaper in blocks of 10 or 20, they are more expensive in blocks of 30 as they no longer receive the horde discount.
- Hexwraiths got hit hard, but with the deletion of battalions they're now the only way of making a survivable general. I'm not sure if it's worth blocking/making the Slay the Warlord battle tactic, but it's worth considering. Also, Lady Olynder remains one of our better options for dealing with monsters.
- Harridans are getting rather good. They're also worth reinforcing potentially due to being able to tag more units with Harrowing Shriek. A lot of meta armies/units now get affected by that ability (Sons of Behemat/Idoneth/Stormcast/Kruleboyz/Seraphon/Lumineth, etc.)
- Speaking of that, people are sleeping on Tomb Banshees. Most monsters have lower bravery, as do many of the top armies (especially now that Tzeentch has taken a hit). They're in tough against Bravery 10 armies, but they can do a lot of work against the armies listed in the previous point, especially now that units may be smaller and armies will need to take more battleshock tests.
- Sadly, the cheeky "Kevin" tech of running a Cairn Wraith with Shadow's Edge no longer works. Time to use my Cairn Wraith model as a conversion for a Hexwraith champion.
- The updated rules for the Mourngul could be huge as could any Day 1 FAQ. We'll just have to see on that.
- A Krulghast Excruciator as general with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts sitting in midst of 9 Spirit Hosts is a pretty darn good anvil. Spirit Hosts took a hit due to the new rules on coherency, but they can still be rather survivable.
Overall, as someone who didn't like running units of 40 Chainrasps, I'm rather excited by the points changes compared to other armies.
8 hours ago, Zashier29 said:Is there anywhere I can watch these older games? I feel seeing the tactics would help me a lot! Maybe I'm not searching the correct key words on youtube.
Most battle reports that you can watch don't feature Nighthaunt. They're just not a good enough army to be taken or shown off at tournaments. However, the Borderline Gaming YouTube channel features quite a few.
I'd also say that it's worthwhile to watch battles that don't feature Nighthaunt to learn how various armies play and to think about how you'd counterplay them.
My favorite resources include Season of War (YouTube), JustPlay - Tabletop Wargaming (YouTube - used to do a podcast regularly), and any battle report done by The Honest Wargamer / TSportsNetwork (Twitch and YouTube).
In particular, if you subscribe to TSportsNetwork on Twitch, their recent Super Series games are well worth a watch. They manage to broadcast 4 games at once, and there's never really any down time so it makes for the most consistently exciting video battle reports I've ever seen.
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One of the reveals has been ward saves replacing all DPR saves. This would seemingly mean the Krulghast now protects against mortal wounds. That’s one unit in the range that has certainly been buffed by 3rd edition with that change and the totem change.
It really seems like the Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern would make for a better totem, but it is what it is!
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18 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:
How will we be in the same place if everything we don't have is getting buffed and everything we do have is getting nerfed?
I just don’t think it’s that cut and dry.
We lose out on the monster and priest rules. I don’t see the new rules making either an auto include. In fact, I don’t think I’ll run a monster in my planned LRL army. Still, having the option for Nighthaunt would be nice. Maybe the Mourngul will stick around and be worthwhile again. Overall though, an opportunity loss but not a nerf to any of our units.
Chainrasps get nerfed by the new reinforcement rules. They get buffed by their champion being able to issue commands.
Reapers, Harridans, and Hexwraiths get buffed by the champions being able to issue commands.
Some of the new commands are buffs (all out attack) while others are nerds (all out defense).
Chronomantic Cogs is a major nerf.
More command points is a buff. We’re a command point heavy army and this will allow more fishing for Wave of Terror.
The Krulghast is buffed a touch due to the totem rules.
The Unleash Hell command ability is a nerf.
So yeah, there’s some stuff that makes me bummed and that I feel are nerfs, but there’s also buffs. I don’t expect my win/loss ratio or the closeness of my games to change much based on this edition (which, let’s be clear, Nighthaunt is a weaker army for sure!).
I don’t think we should have expected an edition to buff our army. When we get a new battletome, hopefully within the next year, that’s when I’m nervously hoping for meaningful changes.
And I was referring to wrapping those units. Even in 2.0, it is hard to wrap big units of Hexwraiths, Harridans, and Bladegheists. The 1 inch range hurts them more the bigger of a unit you take. That’s why I think Chainrasps and Reapers work the best in larger groups.
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Howdy everyone.
Got in another 2 games with my Emerald Host list last night against a player running a Sons of Behemat list.
My list was what I wrote about before:
Lady Olynder (general / reaping scythe) / Reikenor (spirit drain) / Krulghast (midnight tome / shademist) / Dreadblade (PotFW)
30 Reapers / 10 Hexwraiths / 5 Hexwraiths / 10 Chainrasp / 5 Harridans
Black Coach
Cogs / Death Riders
His list was:
War Stomper (general)
Gatebreaker
1 Mancrusher / 2 Mancrushers / 3 Mancrushers
It was my first time playing against the army. We played Blade's Edge. In the first game I tried to just claim every objective after being given the first turn and spread his army out. On his turn, I was simply flattened. Even though I was familiar with the general concept of the army and how it played, in a game I simply did not play against it correctly. I called it at the end of turn 2 and asked the guy if he was willing to play again, same scenario and everything. He was, and I did a much better job of surgically removing his stuff from either flank and he ending up conceding after I tabled him at the beginning of turn 4.
A few things:
I was surprised at how much work the Reapers did without their re-rolls. The range really helped to get a lot of attacks into the Giants whereas the Hexwraiths really struggled to have enough of them in range to do a good amount of damage. The Harridans were also a great unit and ended up doing 2/3 of the damage to his Gatebreaker while their minus -1 to hit ability really shined. The Black Coach did a great job of surviving and being a nuisance, but did a much better job when partnered with the Krulghast. Lady Olynder and her Hexwraith guard got absolutely wrecked.
Overall, now that I know how that army plays, I think it's a really fun matchup.
On 6/10/2021 at 11:19 AM, Landohammer said:The critical issue with the Grimghast Reapers is the same as the Harridans. They are just too expensive.
Reapers were hiked because of LoN abuse, but remain at the cost even after LoN is gone. Also Harridans price increase was mind boggling. They essentially traded double damage 6's to wound for exploding 6's (a lateral change for the most part) but got a 29% point hike. They weren't exactly A tier at 14pts. So at 18pts they are competitively DoA (no pun intended)
Also the rumor thread indicates that armies will only be able to expand 4 units beyond starting size. If true this absolutely crushes chainrasps, since now upgrading a unit to 30 will burn half your reinforcement points, and 40 man squads are gone.
I hate to be a naysayer, but NH aren't looking to be a in a great place when 3rd hits, at least based on current leaks.
20 hours ago, Cronotekk said:Looks like we're going to suffer massively with this edition until we (hopefully) get a new book
-Smaller boards means deepstrike is much harder to pull off
-Reinforcement point system kills a majority of our units
-No good monsters to benefit from monster buffs
-Barely any good wizards
-No priests
20 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:I hate to say it, but I have to agree with this. Apparently horde armies allegedly took too much of the spotlight last edition so now we have to pay for it by a blanket of nerfs in the core rules. I'm not entirely sure at this point how we would be able to have threatening damage or even create speed bumps so we can play objectives.
Our only hope at this point (until our new book comes, whenever that'll be) is either some new rules that haven't been announced yet or some serious points reductions and minimum model count changes in GHB. Though if rumors continue to serve well, we probably won't get that either (at least in points anyway).
Another rumor (take with a mountain of salt) is that Nighthaunt will not get anything in the way of new models either, which I'm honestly fine with, but then the BT will need some serious overhauling for our units and how we play.Y'all... I'm seeing your reasoning, but not agreeing big picture. I think, based on what we know, Nighthaunt will end up in pretty much the same place they currently are. I don't see the new rules making them worse than other factions.
Do I think Reapers and Harridans are overpriced? Sure. But not to the point where they aren't legitimate options in our book. If their points stay the same while most other points go up (likely for Harridans), I can see them being just fine. We'll have to wait and see on that.
The reinforcement issues? I know running hordes of Chainrasps was popular, but I never saw it have any sort of success in Nighthaunt (it did in Legions of Nagash and Legion of Grief, sure). Chainrasps are great for their points but in the new meta with less hordes I don't see a unit of 30 acting all that differently than a unit of 40. The only other units that are worthwhile to run in a large group are Grimghasts and Myrmourns. Hexwraiths are rather unwieldy in 10 - they can be great, or they can just not be able to get enough of the models into the fight. Ditto Harridans. And Bladegheists should be taken in 10 max as if you take anymore than that you not only struggle to get them all into the fight, you also have more challenges utilizing their retreat and charge ability. Plus, MSU and Wave of Terror work really well together.
No good monsters, sure I agree with that. I don't trust the Mourngul to stick around, even if you do argue it's good. And while the new rules are nice for monsters, I don't think you'll see one in every competitive list.
The priest thing is unfortunate as well, but doesn't really change anything for us. And having a ton of great wizards isn't really anymore an issue now then it was then. And honestly, with Reikenor and a GoS with Wychlight and Lady O and midnight tome... you can have a decent little magic force. There's also the Briar Queen.
I don't expect any points reductions in the GHB based on the rumors, but if other armies have a bunch of units go up in points while we have some stay the same, that'd be a win.
Also, while I think Nighthaunt has a better range than most armies, I'd be shocked if there was no new model for the army with the next battletome. Every army in 2.0 got at least one of a hero, endless spells, or a terrain piece. Could we get another 5 wound hero? Absolutely! And if so, it'll probably be a 5 wound priest with an ability that has a small wholly within range that some think is worthwhile and others don't. Though if this edition focuses on monsters, I could see a ghostly monster to be the Citadel version of a Mourngul.
Obviously, we'll know a lot more very soon, but I think Nighthaunt will largely be in the same place for this new edition A fun, but not overly competitive army. Maybe we'll even see a slight uptick because we're used to feeling like our lists aren't what they could be, which will be a new feeling for some armies!
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Well based on a new article posted, Nighthaunt are 9th in line at the moment to get a faction review. Since the first couple, there hasn’t been much in the way of major reveals anyway, so I don’t think the review will have anything all that new for us.
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So, while Nighthaunt currently won't benefit from All-Out Defence; All-Out Attack has the potential to be a game changer for Grimghast Reapers, Dreadscythe Harridans, and Myrmourn Banshees.
Reapers and Harridans each have a unit champion, so they'll be able to use this ability without a nearby hero. I already think Reapers are great due to being able to do their damage without needing a hero around to buff them and this just makes them so much more lethal. Harridans, likewise, really needed that +1 to hit and now they can get it with a nearby Knight of Shrouds on foot. Myrmourns will still need a nearby hero to give it to them, but it at least makes their attacks a touch more likely to hit.
Overall, I think Reapers are the Nighthaunt unit that have benefitted the most from the announced (and rumored) changes. They have a 2" reach, so the coherency isn't as much of a nuisance for them. They can use command abilities on themselves as long as their champion is alive. They're battleline and it's been rumored that battleline units will be allowed to be bigger than non-battleline units (so they'd still be able to be run in a unit of 30). It's making me sad that I sold 30 of my Reapers (I used to have 60), though obviously there's a lot more to see yet.
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I think I’m one of the few that still runs Cogs every game, but I’m bummed to see it get weaker. Still usable, but I suspect there will be new tricks to try.
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I never bought the 2.0 Core Book - just GHBs. Based on the last edition, what am I missing by not getting both, just lore?
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12 hours ago, Btimmy said:
Less than you might think. Currently the state of the game is such that either a hero is completely dead or untouched. It's very rare to have some form of chip damage on a hero. Normally if a hero is taking damage they are either being hit in melee or shot, and in both cases any good opponent will know to focus them down completely. Our "tankiest" hero has what, 7 wounds? That's not exactly difficult for most armies to most armies to deal in a single turn.
It's definitely a boon for running an Emerald Host army with Lady Olynder, but for all of the other heroes I would agree with you. It's unfortunate the positive save items don't help Nighthaunt and that there's no monster in the battletome (I'm aware of the Mourngul and allies), but overall I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.
The new way of using command points is great. It means we will no longer have to deepstrike a hero with a unit that we want to have access to re-rolling charges. We'll also have to wait and see, but it might mean that any hero can use Spectral Summons, which would be great.
The new way of using predatory spells makes something like Geminids or Purple Sun really interesting to take with Reikenor. I particularly like the idea of taking a second endless spell with Cogs, as most opponents that have an auto unbind only have one and making them have to choose between Cogs or a double tap from a Purple Sun is really valuable.
Whenever a new battletome comes our way, at this point I would be expecting a Mourngul type of replacement. In fact, I'd guess most books might receive a single monster model update in much the way that most books in 2nd edition received a single hero and terrain piece update. I'll be disappointed if that's not the case. In the meantime, has anyone painted up a Gatebreaker to look ghostly and be taken as an ally?
I also wouldn't be surprised if Glaivewrath Stalkers get a new warscroll that makes them our anti-monster unit. It fits their fluff to a degree, and would carve out an ideal roll for them to actually be considered in the army.
As for the Black Coach, sorry @Bayul about arguing with you a couple weeks back - I wasn't in a good place. I hope it gets improved, and hope it gets a new keyword. I'm doubtful it gets the monster keyword, but I could see it becoming a hero or a totem.
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5 minutes ago, Bayul said:
It's irrelevant if it had levels for over 20 years. It's time for a change. GW demonstrated it wants Vampires and Necromancers in Soulblight Gravelords exclusively. So that argument is invalid. It's actually even worse that levels are an inheritance from Vampire Counts.
And it's current model is undisputable a ghost carriage.Agree to disagree on the levels, but that’s a subjective thing. We’d both be happy if it had better rules, though I do think it’s underrated as is.
As for it being a ghost carriage... it’s not? The whole model is literally built around the vampire/necromancer in its coffin. And the lore pretty clearly says it’s the dark will of a powerful vampire or necromancer re-formed in a new physical shell.
That lore is really cool and makes all kinds of rules possible, just not transporting ghosts around.
Let’s just hope it becomes a true centerpiece it ought to be.
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12 hours ago, Bayul said:
Correct, give me lower overall buffs and slim down this warscroll.
To be honest, I don't need buffs from a coach. Carriages aren't part of an army. Its passengers and their destination should be relevant somehow. Let it deep strike and disembark units for example.
Levels aren't even that thematic. Why does an undead coach absorb death magic to level up? Acceleration? Charge with it and deal a number of mortal wounds on impact based on the charge roll, like my Ogors do. Much simpler.
I would mind levels on gravesites though.I’d hate to see this and I think you’re misunderstanding what the black coach is.
First, it’s always had power levels. Or at least has for the 20 years I’ve been playing (WHFB before). The way it levels up changes. I remember a time when it added to its wound characteristic for every model it killed and had an upwards bracket... got better as it went above its base wounds.
And it’s definitely not a ghost carriage. It’s the soul of a vampire or a necromancer that is being carried. As such, I wouldn’t mind you being able to choose which one and if you choose Necro it gets a spell and if you choose Vampire it gets the +1 attack command ability.
I do think the levels should be buffs for nearby units, and that it should just do its impact hits regularly.
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4 minutes ago, Bayul said:
Oh. Right.
So when I head over to TTT those two NH lists might appear in tournaments in may and june? Seraphon, KO and DoK lists need to be prepared for them?
I'm not a competitive meta player myself. Just asking out of curiosity.Are you somewhere that still can’t play in person? One day events and club nights have been ramping back up here in the US.
Also, meta watch articles are not typically targeted at the hyper competitive crowd. They are mainly targeted at players who go to tournaments every now and then. If Nighthaunt become more popular, then they are an army that you need to be aware of just due to ignoring rend and their movement. And the article just focuses on lists that may come out of BR: Be’Lakor, so I think you’re being a little harsh.
If you play that list, I’ll be interested to hear how it goes. I’ve been running the Death Riders battalion in Emerald Host and find those two together do make Hexwraiths a true threat.
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40 minutes ago, Tzeentchmike said:
Unfortunately it was just an editing mistake as trying to create the list in warscroll builder before it was updated with new points and battalions. The list is 8 banshees and 4 banshees and a knight of shroud on foot instead of on steed. I was on autopilot with the unit of 12 banshees and command trait so sorry about that
Sorry if I came out a bit harsh, but thanks for responding!
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Also doesn’t feature enough units of banshees for the battalion. Clearly someone who didn’t understand the nuances of the book. There’s a lot of rules and armies in this game - even the best players can misunderstand books they’re not familiar with.
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AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion
in Death
Posted
Unless I’m missing something, that doesn’t help Reapers, does it?
Yeah I do see Mannfred as having a lot of potential. I don’t care for the model, and am going to start a new army this edition, so I don’t think I’ll try him out. But I think he could be a lot of fun. Honestly, there’s several decent options in Soulblight.
Yeah. The new GHB lists which books are still matched okay legal, and the one that features LoG is not there.