Tropical Ghost General

This is going to be long, so apologies for that. I think there is a certain element of it still being early days with us ghosts for sure. But if you sit down with the battletome and compare like for like with other armies we are definitely lacking in a few areas. Now I know that all armies can't all be the same or all have similar qualities, but there are some parts that make it a lot harder for playing pure ghosts on a competitive standing. For example out battalions seem more fluffy than efficient. The shrieker host seems OK unless you have a lot of bravery 7+ in your meta, which is at the moment a lot, but thematically it's awesome. The lord exs is reliant on taking a lot of spirit hosts, which are great tarpits, but the damage output isn't great. I have seen mathhammers and charts showing the potential, but to be honest, anything hitting on 5s, wounding on 4s, with no rend and no natural re-rolls or extra attacks, etc...isn't great. Again thematically it's a great battalion, but in a competitive sense, the bonus it gives isn't that good. The BC battalion would be awesome, if hexwraiths weren't so underwhelming, but yet again from a fluff point of view the battalion makes sense. Another issue we have is with minimal drops. With the battalions there are a lack of named characters that you can take in them. A lot of other factions can take battalions with their names characters, or with more than one hero in them, yet we don't have any that allow more than 1 hero. This makes creating a minimal drop list a lot more difficult. If you add onto that the fact that we don't have any expensive big gribblies, like a VLoZD or Maw Crusher, then it's harder to spend the points on fewer drop units. And I know we are meant to be a horde army, but are longevity compared to LoN is laughable. I think giving ghosts gravesites is OP, but the lack of summoning hurts in games when opponents can easily bring an extra 500pts-1000pts on per game. It comes down to the attrition thing again, we are good at attrition, but we are not the best, and not by a long shot. We are really dependant on heroes as well as an army. Without our death saves we are not great. Sure we have a 4+ save, that ignores rend, but so many units in the game either cause no rend or ignore -1 rend themselves. There isn't much that has -2 rend and above, so our special uniqueness with our ethereal save isn't actually that special. Most of my friends know now that you target the characters first and then the rest of the army will crumble really quickly after that hero support is gone. I've had a fair few games where once the heroes have been one shotted, then the big units aren't getting the death saves, aren't able to heal, aren't able to come back. It's why I've given up on rasps a bit as well, as without the hero support, a 5+ save is easy to start seeing those big units whittle down. And I know that the ethereal save has it's benefits, but it's not an OMG!!!! ability in this current edition, especially when access to mortal wounds is so abundant. Once again in my local meta, most of my friends just mortal wound the hell out of the heroes in the hero phase before finishing them off the the rest of that turn. Now I do like that all of the heroes can benefit from Look Out Sir, but not having any big hero I think does make it difficult to give the army some staying power on the board. I was playing ghosts in AoS 1.0, and what I liked about them was the pure vanilla aspect, they weren't the hardest or the toughest, they were the strongest or the biggest, but they weren't the weakest either, it's like they were a neutral army. No special buffs or bonuses, but no major weaknesses either, proper middle of the road, which made them a really tactical army to play with, as you didn't have any fancy parlour tricks to help you win. I also play LoN and since 2.0 I have left them on the shelf as they are just a bit too easy to play with, the summoning back units and awesome units available, the strong magic casters, the super cheap and sturdy battlelines, compared to ghosts it feels like there is less of a challenge. Now ghosts in 2.0 have sort of retained that vanilla aspect, but at the same time, you'll never win tournaments consistently when you face armies than you decimate you in turn due to special rules (looking at you deep kin turn 3 ?). One thing I have found with the majority of the online ghost community is a reluctance to accept that we might not be top tier as well. There is almost a fanatical refusal to believe that any unit (other than glaivewraiths) might be bad or that GW might have made the rules for the older models a bit naff so that it would drive sales for the shiny newer stuff (shock, horror, I know!!). I think this rose tinted view can be damaging, because you only learn to overcome your weaknesses by identifying them, so if you refuse to accept that the chainrasps are a points trap then you'll never spend time trying to figure out how to overcome the issue they have. Now while I write all of this negative stuff, I must make clear that I love playing with ghosts, I think the challenge of playing them is great, I like the overall simplicity and no thrills aspect of the army, the lack of relying on OP magic, little to no shooting and other stuff as well. But I'm also a realist, and there has been lots of games where the battle was really unbalanced before any dice were rolled or units were deployed. And yes opponents struggle with their first few games against ghost players, because like any army you haven't faced before, they aren't going to know the little tricks and traits that ghosts have the first few times of playing them, but after a few battles, those aspects that made them hard to beat are all too easily countered. We are also an army of 'maybes' in that if we get a 10+ charge it's great, if we can get our mediocre spell casters to cast spells and not have them unbound it's great, if we can get a decent roll on the healing it's great, but there is no certainty to it. You can't plan you battle based on getting those 10+ charges or spells to actually go off, you factor it in, but you can't expect it to happen, and while it is a game of chance with dice, etc..., with ghosts there is very few guarantees that you can make with battleplans, unlike a lot of other factions, were a treelord can sit on an objective and you know that he'll hold it for at least two turns, etc..we have very few things like that that we can rely on as a consistent battle strategy. Overall we are not bad as an army, that's why I say we are middle tier. When things go off as they might do, then we wreck face and we wreck face hard, and it's gross and you have to apologise to your opponent for destroying them so brutally, but when things don't go to plan we get steamrolled over all too easily. We are a chancer's army, you have to take much bigger risks playing with ghosts, if it works your laughing, if not the payback is not nice. I think not having summoning hurts and not having that big gribbly that will guarantee you holding an objective for at least 2 turns hurts, the mourngul could fill the gap, but not in it's current state. Our strengths come from our rapid movement and our ability to hit hard and fast, but we also die to a stiff breeze. And it's all these things that keeps me loving playing ghosts, because it's a big challenge, how do you solve the puzzle of building a decent 'all comers' pure ghost army (no allies). we have a really decent toolbox to draw from but it's not the best and I think as all the newer battletomes come out we will see that power creep and we unfortunately will sink a bit further down the standings. But this is just my opinions and others may have different views on our strengths and weaknesses, but their metas may be easier or harder or more stormcast focused, etc...

- Dreadblade aren't that good as solo heroes but if taken as the general they can offer some interesting teleport abilities. But they end up taking a coveted general and hero slot. - If you have the points spare also go 30 rather than 20. The minimal extra points cost for the extra 10 is worth having those extra bodies to the unit. The larger unit has better longevity and their 2" range isn't hampered too much by being in a larger unit. - Myrmourns can be devastating but they need a fair amount of points spent on buffing units/endless spells to get them to be worth while, as solo they aren't great. Also even when buffed up they are a small enough unit (max of 12 ) that they can be wiped out in a turn fairly easily. I run them as I face a lot of trees and the -2 rend is worth it for that imo. - Cogs are great at helping to get us ghosts into combat better when deep-striking, but as it buffs you and your opponent, it can sometimes be a double edged sword. If you are running grims, blades, or any of the other fast moving units we have, then they aren't really needed. There is a gross combo using the anniversary GoS model, where you can give a unit of grims (or blades or anything else with the 8" movement) a horrible first turn smack down. Use the pendant artefact and cogs and the special GoS's spell, this will give your chosen unit a 19" move (8" move+6"spell+3"pendant+2"cogs) with a +2" to their charge. Most times it means a guaranteed first turn combat. - We as an army require buffs and synergies to be truly effective. We have very few units that are self sufficient. So when it comes to heroes, you need to be maxing them out where possible, trouble is, it then creates more drops, as their is no battalion that fits in the combinations that you really need to take. I personally look at what key units I want to take and then what heroes are going to be vital to make sure that those units are maxing out their potential. Sometimes it means only taking 2 heroes, sometimes it means taking 6. It will vary depending on your personal playing style as well, but remember that heroes are required to get our death save. - Personally the more spell casters the better. This new edition is heavy of the magic focus, loads of stuff can seriously do you over in a single hero phase with mortal wound and spell nastiness that in my opinion you can never have enough spell casters. The only issue we have is that apart from Reik, most of our wizards are pretty meh and most of our battletome spells are pretty meh. Overall it's worth noting that we are a mid-tier army when going pure ghosts. You can look at the results from tournaments in AoS 2.0 to see that. Sure there was a first place at Blackout, but the majority of players who aren't Mr.Warhammer (aka Ben), have been placing around the middle to bottom of the table in the end results. We aren't an easy win army with, it requires careful movement, careful charging and utilising well thought out synergies with various units buffing each other and also getting a few of those sweet 10+ charges. We have some match ups that we will always struggle with, going against other armies that summon, especially LoN lists, as part of our special uniqueness is our longevity but LoN can do it far better than we can, so in a battle of attrition we are going to lose every time as they have more options available to them. I personally try and play odd combos that people aren't expecting. I've been having great success in 1k games with my list that has 4 endless spells in it, 3 of which are predatory. Committing 120pts to spells that your opponent can use against you in a 1k game is really risky and some would say foolish, but so far it's been working for me. Best thing to do is just experiment and if you need to proxy models for other models, so you can test them, refine tactics, etc... My current 2k list is similar to my 1k, but with more wizards and a lot more grims and blades, as they work for my style of fast. aggressive play. I don't bother taking a KoSos, I don't bother with using a Vamp Lord or Arkhan as allies, I don't even bother with any battalions either. It's not what would work for a lot of other players but it works for me.

Allies don't get access to the allegiance traits, so no death saves, no spell lore, no artefacts, etc... Yes the VLs CA is better than the KoS as it lasts longer, you get a natural spell caster, a fairly robust hero who can heal himself. It's a pretty solid choice taking a VL over a KoSoES. It's a really common choice for many ghost players to take a VL but personally I don't take one as I don't feel it's a good way to learn to over come your army's weaknesses by patching it up with allies, but that's just a personal opinion ?.

How do you buff up the SH? Is it just by giving them more attacks?

I find that the 6's for mortals is not enough damage for their points though. When I used to run them in AoS 1.0, when they were pretty much the only choice, they were alright, but when they naturally hit on 5s and wound on 4s, with 0 rend, it's not great. On average a squad of 3 might do 3-4 damage + 3 mortal wounds. the 3-4 damage can get saved/ignored really easily due to the lack of rend. If your going against trees, then the -2 rend of myrmourn and torments are waaaaay more consistent at doing the damage required.

I'm with you on that one @Smavo. My 1k list has grims, rasps, reik, torment, myrmourns and 4 endless spells. I've only had 3 outings with it and it's currently 3-0 with wins. There are some units in our battletome that I wouldn't use (spirits and hexwraiths) but that's more personally preference to my play style and my own opinions on their meagre warscrolls, others get good leverage out of them. I still think we are a fair bit away from discovering the proper killer combos though.

So with the placings from across the pond at NOVA are in. And also looking at the recent results at EGGS here in the UK, how does everyone feel that ghosts are doing overall in the tournament scene? To me it seems that we are pretty middle of the road, we're not amazing but also at the same time we are not OP or broken either. We lack some elements that other armies can bring to the table, with no way to really counter them effectively and I don't think that helps us in certain match ups. We are not an easy faction to play successfully, and consistently successfully. I have won a fair few games with new ghosts and tbh they have all been when the 10+ charge has successfully gone off, but I have lost a lot more that I have won, and almost each loss has been in games that were so one sided that it was basically a struggle from the start, definitely not equal or balanced, but that has been down to mission type or realm type at times as well. I think the lack of summoning hurts and in my local meta a lot of summoning is about, and when we total up the points of units healed/summoned back at the end of the game, it's normally 500-1000pts extra that my opponent has brought onto the table, which is a big handicap to have to overcome, and it certainly feels like playing an underpointed army vs a fully costed army. I am positive that we can get some better results as time goes on, and as more f us ghost generals find the tricks and tactics that work for us as a faction, also as new stuff is released and new FAQs happen and the general meta shifts we might see some more positive results, but currently we have a difficult road ahead of us if we are going to see glory at the top tables again. NOVA - 24th, 50th, 53rd, 55th, 57th, 84th out of 85. EGGS - 17th, 18th, 36th out of 52. Blackout - 1st, 13th, 21st, 43rd, 49th, 77th out of 94. (Remembering that 1st place was won by Mr. AoS himself Ben Johnson, so maybe not a true reflection of how we are placing overall as a faction.) So what is everyone else's thoughts on this?

My bad, was playing with them the other day and my opponent was moving models out of the way for the spell to move. It was the first time I'd seen it. As soon as I posted that comment I thought I'd double check what I'd put was right and I was very wrong ? But that being said you can use shackles to pin in non-fly units with bigger bases, as once set up they can't be moved.

Thing to remember with endless spells is the ability to split units if they have a big base.

So I ran a 1k list today using Reik and the Purple Sun, against Khorne bloodbound. Only went and bloody won the game. Woop woop for ghosts, praise be Nagash, etc... List was: Reikenor (Spectral Tether), Spirit Torment (General/Ruler of the Spirits/Midnight Tome/Shademist), 10 Chainrasps, 20 Grimghasts, 12 Myrmourn Banshees, Soulsnare Shackles and Purple Sun. (990pts). Purple Sun was a big distraction carnifix, only killed 20pts of models (if that), but forced him to split his forces, allowing me to whittle him down. Getting a 10+ charge with buffed up banshee unit helped out a lot as well ?. Still not sold 100% on the myrmourn but will keep testing them out until they have that OMG game winning experience with them.

Hey Everyone on the tree topic Checked with my tree playing friend how he got the 2+ save and it wasn't SoD, it was a regular treelord he was running. I still hate trees. And lizards. And potentially Khorne after today ?

Was wizards or artefact heroes claiming objectives, having to kill whoever claimed it first in order to capture it. Was really unlucky in the choice of mission.

The mission I was playing had 3 objectives. I had one, the tree ****** in the woods had the other (which my rasps tried to take) and Alarielle was sat on the 3rd objective, buffed by woods. Was a difficult choice to make, and I lost due to the trees having a greater healing/longevity than my ghosts. ?

All faction allies got updated in the GHB18 (General's Handbook 2018), as originally LoN couldn't ally with Nighthaunt, but now they can. Though allies can't benefit from any special army rules, such as deathless minions save. The general death grand alliance book was basically replaced by the Legions of Nagash battletome. A Death Grand Alliance army is much weaker than a LoN army, as there are no gravesites, no spell lore, etc... So it's generally considered that LoN is the new generic Death battletome. FEC (Flesh Eaters Courts) & NH (Nighthaunt) are both separate Death factions, but each have their own battletome. If you wanted to run a mixed Death Grand Alliance, then you need to use the allegiance rules from the new Core Book, but then you need to use the most up to date version of warscrolls for the units that you want to use, which could mean referencing from all 3 of the Death battletomes (FEC, LoN & NH). Always check to see if there has been any updates to the FAQ (on the warhammer community page), as they'll update things, changing what was published in the battletome. Sometimes it's rules, or keywords on warscrolls, etc... Does that help?

So all the ghost models from the Soul Wars box can be taken in LoN (Legion of Nagash) army. Chainrasps can even be used as battleline. Also all the allegiances in the LoN book can ally with Nighthaunt, but Nighthaunt can only ally with Death lords & Soulblight

I had an intro set of games today, teaching someone how to play AoS, them coming from 40k. My 12 murmourn in 3 rounds of combat (against skeles) did 12 damage, all of which was healed back in their hero phase. That's 12 banshees buffed with extra attacks and a GoS for +1 to wound. I would burn my dice but they glow in the dark ?. We ran just one set of attacks from those rounds of combat on the GW dice app afterwards and got 38 damage. Wyld Woods are a pain. In the same way as gravesites in a LoN are a pain with healing. Without it though trees are weak. A good tree player uses them to put onto objectives, meaning all you can do is focus on the objectives they don't have. Let them come to you (if possible). I went against a SoD with 40 rasps while it was in the woods. Did 160 attacks in 2 rounds of combat and didn't get a single wound, due to a 2+ save, re-rolling 1s. ?

Nice maths. Any chance you can do this with the heroes as well? Do you think that rasps are more durable than grims considering the difference in saving throws?

@Kirjava13 you have loads of potential but it's not yet built, I have a few bits waiting to get built as well, BC, Kurdoss, but I have even more waiting to get painted ?. If you go with just built units I'd go: Torment (general/spirit ruler/midnight tome/shademist) , GoS (soul cage), Reikenor (reaping scythe), 20 x chainghasts, 20 grimghasts, 3 spirit hosts. Without the bladegheists as well as the grims, cogs could be waste of points. The torment can revive D3 models, which can make spirit hosts really tough to get through.

I feel you on that. I had to miss going to Blackout because of last minute work ****** ?. Why the world can't understand that the hobby should come 1st above all else I don't know ?. So apart from 20 grims, what else have you got? Also what have you got that can do -2 rend, any myrmourn or chainghasts or torments?

@Kirjava13 if it's against the trees, you could try taking Kurdoss over Reikoner. GoS (General/Ruler of the Spirits/Wychlight Lantern) Kurdoss 30 x Grimghasts 10 x Grimsghasts 10 x Chainrasps or 2 x Chainghasts Cogs That's 980pts. You then have Kurdoss and the chainghasts to give -2 rend. The +1 to cast cogs isn't as strong as +3, but it helps.

In 1k it's tricky for ghosts, as you want to be taking 2-3 heroes really, but then you do that and you don't have enough points for your units to be viable to kill anything big and nasty, like a VLoZD with ethereal save and mystic shield ?. I'm struggling myself with decent all round 1k lists to be honest. Being trying out 12 myrmourn, with spirit torment as general and ruler of the spirits, giving the torment midnight tome and taking shackles as a spell. The torment casts the endless spell, the banshees eat it. The torment heals the dead banshees, who now have 24 attacks at -2 rend. the torment lets them re-roll the ones, as 4s to hit is not good for such low attack numbers, and the D3 damage is decent. If you also pair with a GoS, they are wounding on 2's, and the KoSos can give them 3 attacks. If positioned well, they can unbind an enemy spell (at +3 on the unbind), to then take the total up to 4 attacks. But at 1 wound each, they are squishy and they can synergise well to put out a lot of hurt, but to get maximum output (3-4 attacks each, re-roll 1s to hit, +1 to wound) requires a minimum of 420pts of support units and spells, and that's to buff a 210pt unit!!! The only issue is that -2 rend messes with trees really well and other than characters or the BC, I don't think we have any other units that can do it, except the torment and the chainghasts, but their overall damage output would take more than 5 rounds of perfect rolls to take out a treelord.

There is a potential of that, but as stated it's a silly list that can also be fairly self sufficient, as blades and grims don't really need hero buffs to be good.

Potentially, as you currently only have the ruler of the spirits as a way to bring back models, as spectral tether doesn't bring back, it only heals. The +1 to wound is also really handy for your big hitters, like grims and blades, as they are then wounding on 2s. Setting wyld woods up on or near objectives is what I've had happen when facing treebeards. I had 40 rasps attack a tree lord sat on an objective, while he was camped in the wyld woods. In two rounds of combat, doing 80 attacks each time (160 total), I didn't do a single wound, as he had a 2+, re-rolling 1s (mystic shield). It will depend on the mission as well, but trying to attack the trees while they are in the trees in tough, really tough. Also outside of the wyld woods, they will melt fairly quickly to your big hitters. Especially with no Alarielle, which she shouldn't be in a 1k game.

I've got 3 boxes (so far). Plan of running a unit of 20 and a unit of 10 in the shroudguard battalion, probably bulking up to 2 x 20. I ran a game using proxies, having 2 x 15 and 15 did hit well, and what @ianob said is exactly what happened to me, when they got hit back they melted fairly quickly, where as 20 would have kept them alive enough for me to heal them the next turn. It's just a shame that KoSos or Reikenor also doesn't benefit from the 5+ death save in the battalion ?. I'm also working on a silly 2k list that is:- 1 x KoSos, 1 x GoS (anniversary model), 20 x Bladegheist, 20 x Bladegheist, 30 x Grimghast, 30 x Grimghast, 30 x Grimghast. No major hero support, no battalions, giving the KoSos 'Pendant' and 'Midnight Tome', so it's just mass numbers of horrible blades and grims ?.

Weapons is chill blade. Max damage is 3, compared to 4, but the extra attack makes it more likely to get 2-3 damage. Lantern 100% mortality glass. Reducing charge to 1D6 and moving a unit within 24" an extra 6" is massive.