mmimzie
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Posts posted by mmimzie
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You don't change it without more data. I don't super know the cancon results, but as I understand only 2 tzneetch list at the top tables last round with one winning? All in gyrhan where you can heal D6 with life swarm. Heck in the interview the winner even said he didn't understand his opponents list and didn't realize the threats💤. Hell they even rules for the event that the LoC could pick up endless spell anytime in the hero phase!!! This blows my mind that people are even upset.
While only 1 tzneetch list made it to top tables at lvo, and it wasn't even change host, and it didn't win. 😮
They did well at tempest. 4 in top 10. However 3 had change host? And only 2 had eternal conflag? 🎉 This is the most compelling nerf tzneetch argument. Too bad they didn't win
What awesome results worth complaining about and definitely the perfect sized pull full of condemning evidence to nuke a faction.
23 minutes ago, Malakithe said:Realistically everyone should bunker down and prepare to wait months before something changes.
Truth
If we do change things we have to see if it's needed, and what makes things strong.
Change host is good not for the teleport. Heck some folks see the LoC as a tax, and bridge could do the same for less point in a list that gets about every spell off near automatically. It's good because it's 1 drop and let's you take most of what you want.
Flamers aren't good in a vacuum and neither are horrors. Heck horrors in my mind are clan rats in almost everyway. Both can get a lot of buffs and made to do some real damage, but they need a lot of support. While flamers need protection from something but damage wise are pretty good out the box for a shooting unit, and can be buffed very well.
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The whining is pretty stupid.
Literally cities of sigmar had the same sort of thing occur. Book comes out they win an event and top table a few. Every one cries hollow heart is OP. Thankfully however no one listened and the only real nerf they got was you have to take the damage which is what most list did and do anyway.
I will not be one to say tzneetch is bad or needs a buff. That said I think before we get our undies in a bunch, we need to give it time to play out. We have to see how the meta adjust.
The honest wargamer guys are a part of the problem too as on thier cancon video they said "we are the pros we know when we see OP stuff" funny too they said the same about cities of sigmar and deepkin eela when they broke into the scene. However, look at both those armies now deepkin has never had the meta on its back at best it climbed to 56% win rate. Cities too struggle to make it above 50%. Though they do well enough.
The culture of needs is a bit dumb and very much knee ****** and reactionary and we don't look at the victims of this random mob style lynchings.
I'm a tournament player and I know that the casual scene is the most important things to the health and growth of the community and the business that is GW.
Punishing hobbyist who jump in on stuff like nurgle because it looks cool, KO because they look cool, and other over needed armies is very terrible for thier game experience. Even more so when much of it is unwarranted.
This is all a symptom of GWs FAQ policies and slow updates, saddly. I think a better outlet for this vitriol is to complain to GW that they either need to go all digital with monthly or bi month updates, or have more periods after book release where their game impact is reviewed.
This would be a wiser solution rather than screaming like chicks who need feeding.
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The event also took place in ghyran making life swarm a d6 heal. You won't normal get a no draw back d6 heal that very much favors that pink horror squad.
Now if we could ally in hollow heart wizards with thier alliegence abilitys still intact....
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1 hour ago, Killamike said:
Horrors are the real issue, yes flamers do damage but so does a lot of other units out there.
Horrors are winning the games by just flooding the board with wounds, that are then folded or destiny diced back onto the table. And them just being auto immune to bshock with any dd is ridiculous.
Flamers will die to any competent shooting or melee, you will not get through 100+ wounds of horrors controlling the board.
1 hour ago, PUFNSTUF said:I agree, the winning CanCon list only use 6 flamers, but those horrors in the center objective did work.
This is untrue as sequitors are more durable
And clan rats are alittle more durable for the points and give more bodies.
Again the horror mechanic was simply stronger before and you say the banner beings them back? Then you don't understand how horrors work the Pink's die first and almost anything can do 20 would to a 6+, 6+ and thus you get no banner to destiny dice any models back.
So the only real heal is fold and maybe life swarm of you wanna spend the points.
Similar tank with similar number to Pink's is pheonix guard who are immune to battle shock and can heal d6 from life swarm and don't have to suffer the penalty rolling a 1 on fold will incur. While the pheonix guard can put out more damage.
The flameeas being a cheap, small and mobile damage force are the only one that might be the out list in the army in my opinion.
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2 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:
And look at how slaanesh was predicted to be bad and not touched with the faq errata hammer and proceeded to dominate the meta for six months. Sorry don’t want that again. Changehost is not fun to play or play against. It needs to be fixed
Thats more an issue of GW needing to see the current FAQ and errata cycle, learn that it has flaws, and adapt and find either a better time frame to tackle these issues or do what everyone else has and go digital. Instead of making them stupidly impulsive, vulnerable to dramatic flairs of misguided passion from its fan base, and overly nerfing things before seeing how good or bad they are in a real life test environment for a little bit.
They should either:
Go digital with small monthly tweets and stop major tweeks after the first 6 months of 'book' release. Then keep those books on an ever 6 month points adjustment.
or
Do faqs at 2 weeks, points adjustments and rules changes in the form of erratas at 2 months, and then a finalization at 6months where in they only do points changes every 6 months.
Becoming impulsive just means we'll have more KOs, tzneetchs, Slave Nurgel daemon princes, and other units that get waaaaay over nerfed due to dramatic community response that don't look at the health of the over all game. -
13 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:
Lifeswarm to regrow Horrors as well instead of Sigil?
Lovign some Multitudinous Host though!
i wouldn't take life swarm. it'll set you bad as your damage is out of this world meaning you will likely have enemy units in need of healing and your oppoonent could use the life swarm for themselves to heal bigger models that will be of higher value than healing 2 pinks.
Healing 2 pinks is 40 point swing durability wise, where as healing a terror ghiest 2 wounds is a 60 point swing. So those few heals aren't very high value when you consider your opponent could get more value out of the ability, and your also spending cast on this spell so while every timeyou cast it, it's worth 40 points its also gonna suck the value of the wizards spell from you.
I also think if you are going to run that list with no LoC on the table you'll honestly get more out of host duplisitous. I think the core power of guild of summoners is the extra CP to power up an LoC to buff your armies well spells and cascade into more LoCs who spawn up ready to throw fresh infernos at full wounds, and to keep giving you an LoC to keep the command ability in play. Plus your multiple units can be used to lot enemies in combat. -
47 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:
That’s the event winners thoughts. Just in case you think it’s just sore losership from everyone on Twitter.
Honestly i don't need some one else opinion to make my own. In gaming i like very much making my own opinions and observations on the matter of how good or bad an army is, and one what units i want to take.
I've said my piece pages ago on my opinions on change host and flamers. It's a flamer specific issue where flamers might need a nerf or be dropped from change host. Even then on that note of flamer nerfing i'm just not sure if they need it as they individualy are easy enough targets and don't have table spanning range meaning they do need to get abit close, and thier damage numbers and durability aren't better than what cities of sigmar can do. While cities of sigmar has slightly less mobility but better melee unit options or a better magic phase.
Remember when cities came out they were top 10ing and winning for about 2 or 3 weeks right out the gate. However since they have fallen off quite abit, and did not recieve any really points changes or real nerfs that account for this. It was more a shift it meta and increase in player knowledge. I know we all remember the crys of hollow heart being OP, and while they got a mild nerf in the mortal wounds needed to be taken only just very recently they had already fallen to thier current levels before the nerf, and most folks don't even try to negate said mortal wounds instead opting to just heal back the damage that is taken.
As for horrors honestly they were stronger before giving you near limitless board control and many more points off healing and re-summoning of pink horrors, and then they were a bit cheaper for a while, and change host was better and more flexible.
Now tzneetch is quite strong and change is still very strong, but again change host was kind of better before, and had never really risen to prominence over the meta. The true change host strength is one drop, as mind you any other decent shooting army can do the same thing and more with bridge even more so us with out powerful spell casters. If there is anything too strong it's flamers, and that's an if.
I implore you to look at cities of sigmar and go back to thier release in thier threads and you will see multiple weeks of listed events where cities with spots 1, 2,3 or something like that when they first dropped. Community knowledge and reactions are an important thing, and if a book is every release as a perfectly fair and balanced army it should always over preform in its first weeks because opponents won't know how to deal with it.-
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6 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:
He beat it twice in games that only lasted to the third turn and ran to full time both games. He is also one of the best players i know. Joe random, myself in that grouping, would not be able to do what he did.
DoK still let you play the game. This army does not.
I think if tzneetch at its current power level and mobility was melee he would have this complain.
In AoS shooting/magic armies being good have a mild stigma or feel kind of cheaty or unfair.
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It most certainly could be FAQd, but if it doesn't get hit than that's pretty magic.
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OMG this just clicked for me.
You can summon Kairos in guild of summoners..... Woooooow I'm jazzed.
I'm more excited because I don't tend to like running named characters unless I summon them in.
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1 hour ago, NJohansson said:
It’s probably late and I am missing something, but where did you get the 30 flamers (or do you mean that the spell power of the character is equal to approx 30 flamers)? If so - really interested in the comparison.
Horrors had flamers on the brain lol.
The spell power though is high as it's all mortal wounds instead of having to go against saves. Making it better against better saves or worse against hordes.
That said you do have mini horse buster from the gaunt summoner and reason of tzneetch.
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10 hours ago, GeneralZero said:
This kind of list scares me, not because they are scary but because playing a list in which
1) there are no offensive unit and/or anvil like
2) horrors and kairics by 10 are super fragiles and can be erased easyly and can't reply do things in return
3) most HQ are fragile and not fighters.
Maybe the ES make the difference...
1. all the mortal wounds adds up to a decent unit and it's not about clearing out whole, and you have 30 horrors between the whole army you have like 1.5 big killy unit power. The difference is you can target down and kill key characters
2. The horrors are rather tanky as they can with support hold an enemy army up veryu well. They are about as durable as 40 clan rats which can be tough to kill to the man. MOre importantly they are supported with ALOT of debuffs, arcane suggesttion is -1 to hit/wound, gemnids is usualy -1 melee attand and -1 to hit against shooting, while treason of tzneetch is another -1 to hit. So you can completely turn off the kill power of most units in the game. Making the horrors very durable when used well.
3. Most the HQs are fragile but with above as long as it's not shooting they aren't really getting to your heros. Now it does get weaker against very long range shooting that goes first, but aleast against someo f that long range shooting you can also give them -1 to hit and they are fragile enough that your horrors and magic can clear out most shooting units.
MOst importantly it's an objective based game not one based on killing everything for most missions. Meaning all tzneetch cares to do and all we ahve really cared to do is stay even or near even on points and then core 1 or two more points when our enemy starts to limp or clear a tiny hole.-
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2 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:
Question, if I take the chainfire amulet and roll a 6, do I lose the whole attack or just the 6 up.
the wording states “the attack sequence ends” and someone told me that means the whole attack, not just the 6 up that does the mortal wounds.
the wording is similar for the slaves to darkness daemon prince for his sword so I’m very confused whether I’ve been been playing this correctly
Each attack is done seperately technically. So it says the attack sequence ends because that line of that single attack ends.
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4 hours ago, NJohansson said:
Interesting points - not sure I agree entirely though.:) -1 rend is very powerful (pending on which units you use naturally) and the more flamers and horrors the more vital it becomes.
However -1 against shooting which becomes -2 for most heroes (-3 if needed by spells) results in that it is very hard to surgically remove my casters from +18” away (the LoC/destiny dice handles spells very well). This results in that I can be more aggressive with my heroes and in my experience - if most of my heroes are alive at the end of the game I am usually winning the attrition/objective game. Naturally this only applies 50% of all games (at best) but pure close combat armies are generally not my biggest fear (there are always exception - but my lists/play style tend to favor said matchups) so the -1 additional modifier against shooting helps me against my worst matchups - while the -1 additional rend helps with damage, but that was never my biggest concern with all mortal wounds that I can deliver through spells.
One of the most used artifact for Tzeentch (prior to the Battletome) was The Gryp-Feather Charm and With the Locus we now have it within 12” of the LOC so 30” radius which is absolutely amazing.
I was up there as one of the ones who recommended feather charm. The difference with the charm is it was also good agaisnt melee as well. More importantly the quality of shooting was different. The best shooting out there you'd see hit naturally on 4s or 5s, such as KO companies and celestar balistas. This is important as -1 to hit against a 4+ to hit is a 1/3rd damage cut, and against 5s a 50% damage cut. So it was pretty much all you needed to keep your LoC safe in most situations.
Today we have mortek crawlers that are 2+, cities hitting on 3s and 2s, Skaven shooting being warplightning cannons and jezzells (with unmodified 6s to hit doing mortals), and other units that the feather charm does really affect. The crawler at -1 to hit is only a 20% damage cut, and crawlers can get rerolls that mitigate this bonus.
So when we look at the minus one to hit and we say shooting is in the meta, we have to see what shooting is in the meta and how much that matters. Also the buff is on a character who must be in range and even with -1 or -2 to hit good shooting to kill characters. -2 to hit for instance means 1 crawler still has a great chance of killing a horror hero in one vally or shooting like an above 50% change. While an LoC can live through the first valley of 2 crawlers on average (more so with destiny dice) so the math doesn't help an LoC. Sooo against the meta even if the shooting armies we have now got bigger i don't rate a -1 to hit against only shooting. If it was also melee i'd rate it very high even if it was just another feather charm that only affected the one model then it changes thing as -2 to hit against melee can make a LoC a more agressive model who doesn't need protection, while also mitagating some shooting.
The conversation also started with host vs conflag and host has a better artifact of the +1 save. Which is more of that feather charm on your LoC and will matter for more situations. Feather charm is still better because rend exist, but i'd rather the bonus save over -1 to hit form shooting specificly.
I think i'm not really saying the -1 to hit is bad or terrible, but that -1 to hit is such an edge case thing in the current meta where in most match ups it does matter, in the match up where it does the effect is very small. I definitly think there are certain specific match ups where that -1 to hit really can change the game. However, when i look a normal tournament or random gaming scene i think the real motivation for conflagration is going to be that rend and flamers being battle line.
I'd say eternal conflag is REALLY good because it's good on the back of rend and that you can make a change host list with flamers as battline. Which is big because it lets you bring a 20 pink horror squad as a screen, but they will also put out better damage which is really great. Most other list can't run change host with 20 pinks. While on top of making the pinks more kill by letting you take 20 in change host it also give the flamers and pinks a nice little damage steroid.
Which is why the person who did run congflag had this list
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1 minute ago, GeneralZero said:
Lord of change : building questions.
- What set up should I build (if I can't magnetize) ?
- I can't find any magnetization video/tuto : is it possible to magnetize the weapons? Any link/image/video please?
PS: I will assemble Kairos AND a LoC (2 models, no magnet to get both). To use in AoS AND 40K. Hense the magnetization expectation....
It doesn't super matter what you are going to take.
However if you never intend to charge stuff with the big chicken them take the rodm either way they all do similar damage.
Blade is better when buffed is arcane transformation
Claws are better out straight up.
The rod is a ranged attack meaning you don't have to fight.
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29 minutes ago, NJohansson said:
Not trying to argue which is better (to early to say IMHO and both have strong mechanics) but to me the rend is not as critical as the 12” -1 to hit with missile weapons bubble. That is the real strength of the Eternal Conf - especially with all the shooting entering the meta right now.
16 minutes ago, Xyxel said:-1 to rend will be allways better that -1 to be hit in shooting.
Enemy shooting is happening once per turn, combat in both players turn.
You preffer to kill faster or to die slower? : )Hey it's great input @NJohansson
However, i agree with @Xyxel, but also in a tournament setting that shooting -1 to hit only matter when you get matched against shooting armies. You can go 5 round in a tournament where 50% of all the armies are shooting and not meet a single shooting list. Or at best the -1 to hit only matters 50% of the time, and even against shooting armies many like bone reapers or cities have large parts of the army that aren't shoot based. So in the games where it matters it might only matter for a fraction of the damage coming your way.
For instance look at gain's games in this event. He went against only 2 real shoot threats. Bonenreapers with 2 crawlers, and skaven with 3 ratlings and 2 warp lightning cannons. The crawlers were 400pts out of 1600pts. While a big threat for sure the -1 to hit is only a small decrease in damage against a fractions a 4th of the enemy army. While, the -1 to hit does nothing against the warp lightning cannons and the ratlings where only 240pts worth of models.
The rend matters in every single game. Similarly the host has its save bonus and reroll spell cast matter in every game, and guild has the whole coven matter in every game.
So the real reason to take conflag is going to be that rend and the flamers as battle line. As such when taking eternal conflagration I really refommend only using it if you wanna run any combination of 2 or more of 6 flamers and/or 20 horrors as that's where you'll get the most bang for your buck. Otherwise, your list might be better being something else.
TLDR: So while the -1 to hit is definitely not nothing. The the rend is why you take the conflgration. As it's the one element you can rely on and will have the most impact.
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2 minutes ago, simakover said:
5+ is hard and Scribes already gives you full reroll to cast. Not saw any good buffs from duplicious. Eternal gives you -1 rend, flamers as battleline(make 2x10 horrost -> 1x20)
They are locked to change host so they can't merge horrors so that's not important.
Blue scribes can cast endless spells on a 2+ I wouldn't waste that on his reroll spell if i'm in duplicitous. That's geminids, spell portal, or firestorm, etc going off on a 2+ i'd rather do that than get reroll cast even more so if i can get it with a artifact. Make the blue scribe a stronger caster, and he learns all the other spells from your lore and ever's warscroll spells on your first turn of casting.
the fail on the +1 to cast on pinks is a possibility and it's a pretty heavy hit that's a +50% damage steroid if it fails so it can make them suddenly swing very poorly. not being 20 models and not getting your spell off is a big damage difference. So the horrors in that army are definitly a lot more screen and objective grabbers than a damage unit. So buffing thier damage isn't the most important thing.
So the real question you are asking is, why didn't he bring a different list that does something completely different?? Because eternal conflag, Guild of Summoners, and Host Duplicitous are all powerful and have different strengths and weaknesses and lend themselves to very different and specific builds.-
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2 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:
first one: if I choose to arm a lord of change with a baleful sword or a rod of sorcery, I can’t use wicked talons and a curved beak right? This seems weird only because the bird doesn’t lose its beak and talons, so why does it restrict itself in combat lol.
It's a game. One could say why doesn't he wack folks with the rod, or wouldn't he be more accurate with is staff using both hands? Once you go down the rabbit whole of trying to figure out the logical reason it gets kinda dumb pretty quick. We can just leave it as it's a game and just let it be.
1 hour ago, simakover said:Why second place on Tempest2020 take Host duplicious instead of eternal confl ? dont understand
He wanted 2nd not third place.
Seriously though they got a possible 7 spells to cast a turn rerolling is no joke and goes a long way to boosting thier success. horrors in a 10 man block are bad shooting to be honest so the rend doesn't go as far against them getting a sometimes +1 to hit on a 5+ to hit unit just doesn't cut it. This list has better magic, better summoning, and more mortal wounds than it would have if eternal conflag. A 1cp free summon on a 5+ could win a tight game for you on the spot, it's an edge case but a trump card is always good to have.
VS.
Eternal conflag gives you only an extra -1 rend against most armies in the meta right now. Honestly, that's not good enough in my opinion unless you are going heavy on the flamers.
I think unless you are going heavy flamers i'd only run host duplicitious and guild of summoners if running heavy daemons. As the magic steroids both give are strickly better and the artifact and command abilities hit the current meta better or are better in more situations. -
You 100% bring your own endless spells most of the list we have here are running a near constant 2 or 3 endless spells and to get these working effectively you only really need to push that to maaaaaybe 4. As your first LoC can use his warscroll and lets say you start with one and summon 2 than that's only 2 endless spells they need to have in thier pocket, pendulum, gemnids, and/or simulacrum. I actualy really like simulacrum i was meh on the things right away but a solid 3 mortal on most targets or 4/5 on wizards feels quite nice, and the long range lets you launch the thing turn 1 along side gemnids.
I've run the list 3 times and have had a great success so far. The large horde of pinks do wonders for holding objectives, access to easy set up and go bridge keeps me mobile, and the wizards put out the damage where. The birds either give me more damage to push or a quick easy body to let me better take the table early on. They also get easy access to that +1 save agenda that isn't too bad for getting a tanky bird to hold down a side of the table.
I just look at 10 blue horrors or even 20 or 30 and they feel ineffective in comparison for pushing the table when my list is already 50 pink horrors strong. -
I think you are going guild of summoners it's if you are starting with an LoC with a magic heavy list, and you are bring lots of pinks so you can ignore all the battle shock test. It actualy has lots of cross over with the host duplicitous in my opinion.
The extra CP goes a long way in increasing you spell damage output, and the artifact lets you ignore the battleshock -
26 minutes ago, simakover said:
That do you think about Kairos? is there way to use him at spell heavy lists?
Kairos is pretty good. Lots of folks are liking him now thanks to his 3rd spell cast making him quite strong.
That said I prefer the LoC the command ability is a nice force multiplier in our list making our magic phase quite a bit more consistent.
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1 hour ago, Xyxel said:
Why would a shooting/magic army without screens resign from Change Host?
They are living life on the edge. Some times it's fun to play risky.
Either way I think I'd throw a unit of Pink's in that list.
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4 minutes ago, SwashBuccaneer said:
Can the Acolytes and Pinks still cast their spells after they drop below 9 models?
The warscrolls say they are wizards at 9+ but this game is new to me so the rules are tricky still.
Once they drop below 9 they can no longer cast thier spell unless brought back over 9 models.
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Just now, AverageBoss said:
Seems like an average increase of 3 damage against armor 4+, vs his native spells 3.5 mortal wound.
The advantage in Infusion though is that its only a 5 to cast vs. a 7.
I don't think I would take the spell on anyone else (well, probably Archaon), but I think it is a viable option for the Ogriod. Especially if you have other Mortal only casters in the list.you also ahve to consider you have to make it into melee
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
My friend that was at the event tolde today that lvo did use the book. It made it just in time for the deadline.