[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@vinnyt Oh thank you for the feedback. Much appreciated. At this point in time I am merely a guest player and there's only two gentlemen filming, editing and spending time and money. Much of what you said about the camera set-up is certainly on their radar, they too are a fan of all of our favorite channels. I'm unsure what they are planning for their overlay, thats where we get into dealers choice, I certainly am of the same mind about showing the lists for the intro. I've already given them feedback about not worrying about looking at dice trays, some channels have a separate top-down overlay, which is fine. Concerning the running time, I've also voiced my opinion on the length, in fact I was worried this was going to happen because behind the scenes, the entire production took 6 hours! That said, there is only one person editing, and they are still learning, on top of the channel still figuring out what they want their focus to be. All things considered, they've done a wonderful job improving video to video. 

[Artillery in AoS]

I really want to open this discussion up. I want to start thinking about ARTILLERY in terms of the "power projection" on the table; Reach x Threat. I began to think that this discussion in terms of shooting was too limiting because we forget that there are still many ways to project power across a table and not many ways to mitigate it. Whether its being in your face turn one with melee, magic nuking, ambushes and so on. Generally speaking, ARTILLERY can't compete at the moment with any of these other forms of power projection, and that really made me sad. The reason why we talk about the good shooting out there is also because it sometimes outclasses the power projection  of other methods too. When you look at an army as a whole, you start combining all of these different forms of power projection, you start seeing a pattern. Generally the good to great armies can play with all different types of power projection, with the same list!

Movement is one obvious element to projecting power with any unit or style of play, a trait ARTILLERY doesn't or shouldn't have, and so I have begun to look at this problem from that point of view. This combines with the conundrum of their role as well. How do I synthesize a solution from this?

[Artillery in AoS]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:13 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Maybe they shouldn't really have those mortals on hit

This is the point of contention for all if not most of the trouble units being talked about. MW shooting doesn't jive with the current look out sir rule and that can be a problem, regardless of actual damage output of a shooting unit. Most artillery doesn't even have MW capability to begin with, another negative to that keyword *cough* WLC *cough*.

I definitely think you have the hot take that Longstrikes are what artillery should be. Lots of things make Longstrikes good, primarily because they are in stormcast. You allude to the modularity they have and that is accurate. All of this is to say that I believe they are a "proud nail" in the game because they fill MANY roles without the player making a hard choices whether in list-building, deployment or choosing targets. We can talk all day about giving them an ARTILLERY keyword but there is a subtle distinction between battlefield role and actual role in the game. I would argue that the Longstrikes problem, along with every other problem unit, can be balanced for the game as a whole, if they are in fact internally balanced within their faction, so hard choices need to be made before even showing up to the table. 

 

[Artillery in AoS]

21 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

They usually require a dedicated buff hero to unlock their full potential

Lets definitely put those heroes to better use. I would prefer artillery to act more independent of other units or even allegiance rules so they can design them for efficiency and more accurately pointed. Besides, I want heroes fightin' and being part of the scrum.

18 hours ago, Kadeton said:

let some infantry units retain their long-range shooting ability, but change their role to Artillery.

I think you nailed it. If this was the only change they made to some trouble units, it would place a fascinating incentive structure for list building. For all of the problems we identified with the artillery role, this would immediately put into question if the warscroll is worth it. If we took this a step further and started removing artillery from the core battalions, players now have to make harder decisions about their list building. For those worried about making artillery good and thus increase the number of good shooting in the game, I propose that we let them be good and pointed fairly, with the knowledge that they are clunky to add to lists. I'll have to think a bit more on some potential examples. 

 

19 hours ago, Beliman said:

We can group all Artillery units into 4 groups:

I agree that we shouldn't shoe-horn artillery into a single purpose. Just like every other battlefield role keyword, amongst each keyword, theres still lots of diversity. Just spit balling but I would love to see some artillery pieces have  a purpose on the battlefield other than straight damage as an example. I play skaven, and every skaven player knows our plagueclaw catapult is way out of date. What if it was a de-buff at range instead? Perhaps if it hits, the enemy unit effectively gets the Curse prayer on them? Imagine artillery that slows down an enemy unit from afar, or perhaps turns off flying because of a net or something?

My favorite idea is forcing out command points from your opponent. What if archery units that are changed to artillery gain something like "if your opponent doesn't use all-out defense against this attack the damage for this attack is increased by 1". This might simulate defending units having to put their sheilds above their head. Most of my ideas would want to incorporate as much of the core rules as possible as an untapped design space. Any time we can add tough choices using rules that are familiar for defending players, especially against shooting, I believe would create a more interactive and fun game. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@Megahurtz

Verminus works as a theory. Remember, I only tied that one game with one model left. Verminus can work if you purposefully use stormvermin as a hammer AND can get the set-up. That said, I highly encourage list building that has the bodies, fighting through the restrictions in reinforcement points, and winning the day. I still think most opponents are building for high profile shooting, large centerpeice monster/heroes which currently a hoard army is not great on paper against, but you can still pull some tricks.

With a verminous list, I recommend being highly aggressive with mobility, perhaps jumping off of your idea with weapon teams, and adding some drill teams to replace the endless spells. However, even stormvermin are gonna just evaporate when they pop up in a no-mans-land. Use it for pinpoint accurate set-up to get buffs from a Clawlord or Warbringer. Anytime you can take the re-roll charge triumph is a must as well. Otherwise, spamming MSU units of giant rats is the real tactician's choice. Control the board and have speed bumps to protect heroes and stormvermin alike. Some tech I'm looking into is splashing an assassin to prevent one turn of piling in. 

All of this is to say that I will stump verminous lists if for no other reason that they can alpha pin your opponent in place. Maybe not in their territory but you can make it work. This is absolutely not gonna work against any Death army or an orruks list (lets be real) but certainly against anyone trying to be tech-y with their list. 

 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

Attention rat generals, I need your help deciding: likely ill be on our channel again spreading the glory of the great horned rat but what army to choose

🤪: 4 doomwheels and lightning vortex

😍: null deployment 

😂: All moulder with healing cranked to 11

Vote with appropriate reactions (confused, love it, and haha

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

On 1/30/2022 at 1:13 PM, greg19190 said:

did not go well... lost against morathy and bow snakes +more snakes, lerned verminlord decivers dont do as much as you want (and think)

You went up against a lot of shooshting, did that -2 to be shot actually save your demon, or still get buried under weight of dice? Based on the armies you saw for the whole event I assume there was diversity of shooting in general.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@Skreech Verminking You must be in Australia. All them rats are upside down.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@Megahurtz Sorry for the late reply. Sure thing. I posted this list a ways back after success against Slaves of Darkness (ironically with a Khorne Demon Prince that time). Here's the list I showcased in the video. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Verminlord Warpseer (335)*
- General
- Command Trait: Cunning
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Verminlord Warbringer (305)**
- Artefact: Shield of Distraction
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Grey Seer (140)**
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Clawlord (105)**
- Artefact: Things-Bane
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Plague Priest (85)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
Plague Priest (85)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
UNITS
30 x Stormvermin (330)*
- Halberd & Shield
30 x Stormvermin (330)**
- Halberd & Shield
20 x Clanrats (130)*
- Rusty Blade
- 1 x Standard Bearers
- 1 x Standard Bell Ringers
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (80)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
**Warlord
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Artefact
Spell

As far as what I learned, I'll start with questions I wanted to ask with this list: 

Q1) Can I still castle (or even afford to) as skaven without having a typical number of disposable units?

Q2) Can I turn a Clawlord into an assassin? 

Q3) Can I win the command point war?

Q3) Endless Spells: Do they work as intended? Can lifeswarm keep my elite troops in fighting shape? Will geminids help me win the command point war?

Considering I strolled up to a table full of giant centerpeice models, Bloodthirsters now doubt, I was a bit skeptical. Here's the answers I uncovered:

A1) I can indeed. Stormvermin with a mystic sheild, actual sheild and the 6+ ward from Bless can work like the perfect "storm" of anvil and hammer. Stormvermin are only blenders if you castle up, the Warbringer and Clawlord command abilities are wholly within so normally being aggressive on the charge makes them 'meh'. You want to be charged. Even against khorne. 

A2) I can. But I threw him at a wall of chaff. Then he die-ded. Re-Deploy is a fickle mistress robbing me of killing a Big ol' Demon. Suicidal maniac Clawlords look and feel super fun, more tech would be to put him within 6" with Dreaded Skitterleap. I don't regret putting the Things-Bane artifact on him either. 

A3) I stole 5 CPs from my opponent with cunning. Generated 5 extra with Warpseer's ability an extra 3-4 from the masterclan trait. So yes. I felt in control at all times. I was so inundated with CPs that even after realizing a mistake with how often I actually needed to use my battleshock bubble, my opponent and I concluded I would have had plenty of CPs to do it (I was remembering the old version of the that ability). 

A4) No, oh no they did not. Even if they hadn't been dispelled every waking moment, I realized the folly of bringing back a handful of models during the game. More frustratingly, I mis-read the geminids and they don't interact with command points in the combat phase, which is where I need them to work. They're range is pretty abysmal as well, hard to use them proactively. Shackles unfortunately would have been the choice but I can't bring myself to play them as I have deemed them a feel bad. 

 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

7 hours ago, Megahurtz said:

So you are Michael? Nice to see you😁

So as mentioned in the intro, there are many Michaels but there can only be one. Skaven must win out. I actually want to have a Mike V Mike fight for their channel. I think it would be funny. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

Now I don't normally like sharing stuff, especially things that are me, but I want to direct your attention to a battle report on my gaming club's fledgling channel. I was recently "tricked" into appearing on the youtubes thinking I was just going to roll some dice but apparently the camera loves me. The channel is Battleshock Wargaming and they're always looking for feedback on making their videos better. More importantly, watch the LOTFP (khorne) V Clan Verminus featuring all the stormvermin below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U45a2hK-lBQ&t=471s

They're a bit long, but as with most channels starting out they're working on ways to slim the reports down. Spoilers, the conclusion was very satisfying in the most Skaven way possible. 

 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

2 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

And I thought coherency triggered after a turn(15.2) , so it would be after the battle shock phase.

I've thought about the Splinter spell a lot, especially with list ideas that have the warpgnaw, and generally yes, it would only really check at the end of your turn's battleshock phase. If you use this strategy you have to make sure its a unit you don't plan on engaging in melee, otherwise their pile-in could fix the gap. More interestingly, if you plan to shoot that same unit (which we would more reliably do off of a deep-strike), you want to make sure they are battleshock immune or won't lose so many models to the shoosting or the following battleshock phase such that coherency doesn't matter. Very good strategy against death armies though. 

These are some subtle pointers but important if you want the model removal spells to get maximum effect. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

12 hours ago, TerminusRex said:

Unfortunately Thanquol cannot take flaming weapon.

I stand corrected. From FAQ:

"Q: Are Unique units allowed to take spells from the universal spell lore or prayers from the universal prayer scripture? A: No."

While at the same time, your army is still allowed to take a spell enhancements. It is stated that no individual unit is given said enhancement. Then, each unit may take a spell from lore they have access to. Except unique units. 

Before we go down that rabbit hole, check out the discussion here also on this site if you're interested. I was just typing this all out to cement it in my head. Warscroll builder still let me do it so I was confused.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@bonzai Strong recommendation to bring at least one warlock. The possibility of overcharging a lightning cannon is too good to pass up. Even if you're the type of player who wants to blow up a key peice, its part of the mind games with your opponent. You need to keep the threat of 12 MW's with one shot on the table, even if you never use it. I would swap your artillery for Jezzails so they can run more independently. Otherwise a list after my own heart. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@Skreech Verminking By golly you've done it. The 2x block of stormvermin make me extra proud. No need to alpha pin, going for the alpha strike from the look of things. Warpgnaw at flat 6 dmg sounds hilarious to me. Hunters of the Heartlands for the win, if you can take a triumph to get that free re-roll to charge. What I just realized for this many weapon teams, you can actually turn them into a screen for the heroes/stormvermin. The warpgrinder's alone account for at least 1 foot of speed bump if you line them all up. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@TerminusRex Absolutely go ham on big monsters. Huge stocks on verminlords right now and Thanquol can finally be a bruiser with flaming weapon. Mechanically speaking, its just a big advantage to have monsters for point scoring. Our monsters are still glass cannons despite buff stacking, but we also still have affordable chaff. 

@Noserenda Unless you "sacrificed" an enhancement on a Deathmaster, they're even worse now. The best I could see is re-rolling all hits and wounds against a target and turn him into a wizard for  flaming weapon. A better assassin is a clawlord with double death frenzy, give hime the Things-bane artifact and you teleport him to their back line. Way more fun.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

I challenge all of you (if you're a real skaven player you will) to build a list that "null deploys". Don't have a single model on the table to start. It doesn't matter who goes first. You just scare the ****** out of your opponent. I suggest Warpgnaw Verminlords summoned with the Gnawbomb, so many Drill Team Six's and a plethora of Gutter Runners. Use the GR's to tag your backfield objectives if you're really trying to score points. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

At worst we get a new underworlds kit, the whole point of that range is to explore areas of the lore that they're not willing to dive into just yet or are too niche. That doesn't mean we wont buy them in droves to make units. Rules don't need to be good, we just need the models. 

The Skaven vs. Seraphon rumor would be an absolute blast. Great way to round up some old world grudges. 

For the book re-design, I've said it before but mechanically we need to leave the clan based factions behind. Theres certainly lore reasons on the surface not do that, but plenty lore reasons why we play mixed forces anyways (because it works on the table). I still vouch for creating "schemes" instead of clans for the book structure, incentivizing two or three particular units/clans to acheive a goal, kinda of like Tzeentch's agenda allegience ability but fleshed out as a sub-faction.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

All right Rat fans, time to put on your tin-foil hats: its speculation time. I'm willing to bet that the next "season" is going to take place in Ulgu, GW is just dying to get the "Umbra-neth" aelves out so Teclis and Melarion, not to mention Morathi is taking over cities there and foul plots afoot. We've said it before in this group, but clan eshin has to be hiding out here. I'm just going to assume they're getting a complete re-vamp, because we're taking some big swings here. 

My question to all of you is: How do we make eshin really weird and cool? Ninja-rats? Come on, this isn't Fantasy battles, this is Age of Sigmar, lets get crazy. Ninja-rat-pirates? Yes please. Ninja-rat-pirate-Oni? Much better (might flesh out our demon lore a bit to boot). In Ulgu they might just go "shadow-rats" on us, perhaps more elite 32 mill bases? Perhaps some non-hero single models, kinda like the doom seekers in fyreslayers. 

Now if we stay in Ghur, and the next "season" is simply other parts of that realm, I could easily see Moulder getting a face-lift. And crazy new monster sculpts alone would be amazing by itself. 

I'm just having fun, speculate at your whim. Happy dice rolling!

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:50 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

I’m not sure if max. Unit sizes of 15 will be helpful for our gutter runners.

oh yup, thats my bad. i was in fantasy land when i posted that. stilll remembering the good ol days

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@Noserenda Thats a very important question to ask. My answer comes down to what role they play and that is certainly screen chaff, objective grabbing and being a speed bump. Min size units of 10 for night-runners will always be difficult with the way reinforcements work at the moment for skaven. Even if we could get them to 40 to get them the damage buffs to be "good", you lose out on their ability to be cagey speed bumps, their mobility ironically suffers because its harder to maneuver that many bodies. There is an argument to max unit size gutter runners, as you potentially get them to +3/+3 so I would save those points for that. 

If you really feel enticed to max them out, make sure to pair every block of 30 with at least another unit of 10 to be the front wall of chaff and take the initial charge. Night runners do have the potential to serve multitple roles in your lists, just not optimal ones.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

So RIP having nurgle allies now. Double RIP for glotkin, doubled points. Should have seen that coming. 

That being said, having reviewed the book, I'm so happy for nurgle players *ahem* I mean Maggotkin players. The army will play very different and may upset a few try-hards but I must say the flavor of that book is on point. And because of how they nailed that part, I can only get excited for the other armies glow-up, especially Skaven, Beast-men and Khorne. Oof can you imagine a khorne book that just slaps, and gets rid of all of its complicated aura 3-D chess nonsense?

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Verminlord Warpseer (335)*
- General
- Command Trait: Cunning
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Verminlord Warbringer (305)**
- Artefact: Shield of Distraction
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Grey Seer (140)**
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Clawlord (105)**
- Artefact: Things-Bane
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Plague Priest (85)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
Plague Priest (85)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
UNITS
30 x Stormvermin (330)*
- Halberd & Shield
30 x Stormvermin (330)**
- Halberd & Shield
20 x Clanrats (130)*
- Rusty Blade
- 1 x Standard Bearers
- 1 x Standard Bell Ringers
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (80)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
**Warlord
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Artefact
Spell
TOTAL

Hey ya'll, I just finished a game against a LOTFP list and wanted to just go all in on my favorite unit: Stormvermin. I have 80 and need them to see some action. I pulled out a win against a fully kitted out Deamon Prince of Khorne, a host of STD characters, a maxed out unit of Knights on horsey's and on foot. The stormvermin inspired the rest of the list but the 1000 ft strategy was winning the command point war and that I did: Tyrant of battle and Children of the Horned rat command abilities are so cheat-y face. 

I can vouch for the save stacking on the stormies doing the work; it was unfortunate I could never get the first charge the whole game, but a block of 30 took the brunt of ALL of his double-attacking knights. Death Frenzy was key I'll admit but I also didn't lose a whole unit during that second turn. I certainly had to play cagey and gave up all of the objectives for the first two rounds settling for battle tactics but I did the ol' swing around to the short side of the board to channel my opponents whole army into my synergy center. Ultimately, everyone's foot troops were all dead at the top of 4 and we had a fun and exciting Hero Hammer battle with our center-peices for the last two rounds. Hilariously my grey seer AND priest blew themselves up as well as my clawlord maxed out his attacks at 7 then spiked the Lord on Karkadrak... on the death frenzy. 

All in all, I had fun, much more fun than last week's debacle. I might swap out the lifeswarm for another screening unit and perhaps go for a prayer enchancement for Guidance or just another artifact enchancemet to grab a Liber Bubonicus. I never got Curse to go off but might not have mattered as much against STD units. Otherwise this list is a keeper. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@greg19190 Thanks greg. Painting more models helped me get over it. 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

Quick update: I got trounced by Soulblight. I'm a little salty. Savage gains was the scenario and I called the game at the bottom of 3 (09-27) 'cause I couldn't score any more points. My opponent didn't lose a single unit. 

I'm salty because I got to do everything I wanted the list to do. Vengorian Lord took an overclocked WLC to the face and the full assault of 3 overclocked rattling cannons, re-rolling all hits and warpstone sparked for +1 damage. This knucklehead survived. I even threw a Warp Sun of Skavenblight at it the next turn, nothing. Meanwhile I'm dying, and they're healing. Oh and Radakar and a Vampire Knight on Zombie Dragon were killing my dudes. Oh and to deal with that I had a Strike-First, Finest Hour'ed, Flaming Weapon'ed Deceiver that got roared and I couldn't re-roll the ones rolled to wound, which let those other knuckleheads survive. 

I felt that hero save stacking. I had built the list posted earlier to beat it. Just need to vent. I need a beer.