Double pile in and "ward" saves

[Tasman]

Ok. Two questions here. There seems to be a bit of confusion at the local shop as to how we approach these.

First: Units that can pile in twice, for whatever reason, can only pile in immediately if it is stated as such on the war scroll. Otherwise the order would be: attack with hell striders. Opponent activates a unit and attacks. Hell striders get second pile in. This is how I think it is supposed to be played, as there are certain scrolls (unsure of which, but I know I've read them) that state explicitly that the unit in question piles in immediately for a second attack.

This has been a point of contention with a few of the people in our group.

Second: A unit that is granted a second "ward" save through an ability, (the 5+ save granted by the harbinger for example) only takes these rolls AFTER damage has been allocated, correct?

For example. A unit of plague bearers takes 6 wounds that potentially will cause 2 damage each. They save 2 with their regular 5+ save. Their secondary 5+ is then applied to the damage, 8 saves must be attempted in this case.

Almost ended up in an argument with a dude over this one. Please give me your thoughts.

[BaldoBeardo]

You're right. "Ward saves" is a bit of WFB hangover, they aren't saves.
Saves occur before damage is added to pool, ABILITIES generally trigger when allocating damage to models.

As for pile-ins, IIRC abilities are either worded "immediately" or "may be selected again". Ability to be selected again doesn't trump combat activation sequence.


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[Tasman]

^^My thoughts exactly. Thanks. This is how I've been playing it (and preaching it) at our local GW.

[Nico]

Red Fury is a rare example of a pile in and attack again immediately rule. However, don't play it that it becomes an infinite chain (I'm sure you wouldn't - so that's addressed at the wider audience).

[Kosmion]

isn't "ward save" basically just another chance to succeed your save roll, but oftenly with a very slim chance? so the plaugebearers would only have to make 4 save rolls, but with the small chance of making them on 6 or something? it says in the four pages you determine damage after all the save rolls has been made

[Kramer]

On 12/5/2016 at 1:10 PM, Tasman said:

Otherwise the order would be: attack with hell striders. Opponent activates a unit and attacks. Hell striders get second pile in

That's how we play it. Isn't it phrased as 'a unit can be SELECTED twice to pile in' ? For example see attached image.

On 12/5/2016 at 1:10 PM, Tasman said:

A unit that is granted a second "ward" save through an ability, (the 5+ save granted by the harbinger for example) only takes these rolls AFTER damage has been allocated, correct?

I think a great way to start is to stop calling it a ward save. That way it automatically places it in the same group as other (armour) saves. But I think you're right: The saves are against damage and not against wounding attacks (as armour saves armour).  

So the order is: An attack hits, an attack wounds, armour save fails, damage multiply-er, saves against wounds. 

[Nico]

Quote

isn't "ward save" basically just another chance to succeed your save roll, but oftenly with a very slim chance? so the plaugebearers would only have to make 4 save rolls, but with the small chance of making them on 6 or something? it says in the four pages you determine damage after all the save rolls has been made

 

Quote

I think a great way to start is to stop calling it a ward save. That way it automatically places it in the same group as other (armour) saves. But I think you're right: The saves are against damage and not against wounding attacks (as armour saves armour).  

So the order is: An attack hits, an attack wounds, armour save fails, damage multiply-er, saves against wounds. 

As convenient short hand, it's going to take a long time to displace "ward save" - just "ward" is better (provided you say qualifiers correctly like Chaos Warriors have Runeshields which are a ward against mortal wounds). The point about how damage is allocated above is a key distinction - save, multiply out, then ward; and more importantly rerolls saves buffs don't work on "ward saves".

 

[Squirrelmaster]

I think it would also help to keep the "wound" wording clear. The actual order is:

1. Attack hits
2. Attack causes damage (does not actually "wound", despite being called a "Wound Roll" and using the "To Wound" characteristic)
3. Save roll fails (No such thing as an "armour save" in AoS, it's just a "save")
4. Determine damage (how many wounds will be inflicted when you've finished attacking)

Repeat steps 1-4, keeping track of the total number of wounds caused (some players talk about a "wounds pool" or "damage pool", or "wounds inflicted on the unit as opposed to wounds inflicted on individual models", none of these terms are actually used in AoS), until the attacking unit has made all of its attacks with all of its weapons.

      5. Then you actually inflict wounds on models, with the controlling player deciding how they are allocated within the target unit (but they must go on already-wounded models first). It's at this point that effect which say "when a wound is inflicted on X" trigger.

These abilities are not saves of any kind. There is no general term for them in AoS, they are just abilities that all happen to have similar wording. Some players refer to them as "ward saves" or "wards", that term comes from old Warhammer Fantasy Battles. The official FAQ actually refers to these as "special saving throws". I've heard some players refer to them as "Feel No Pain" rolls, which comes from Warhammer 40,000 and is kind-of fitting since FnP is clearly stated in the 40K rules to be "not a save, not affected by things that affect saves".

[Tasman]

^Right on the mark. I'm pleased thatI've been playing it correctly.  Thanks all.