AoS night 9 November 2016 - Battle Report - Fyreslayers v Beastclaw Raiders

[Nico]

So as discussed I took on the undefeated and barely scratched might of Max's Beastclaw Raiders List. I think they are staggeringly overpowered and badly designed (healing better than Sylvaneth - that's fluffy) - with the Moonclan battleline fixing the model-lack problem - they are certainly a top tier list along with Stormcast (Warrior Brotherhood or Prosecutor spam); Chaos Alpha Strike and Tomb Kings. 

I decided to take my Fyreslayers, which I've been painting up stealthily over the last few months. I think they have some virtues (basically the ability to pop up and shoot and simultaneously get a reliable charge in with ward save battleline units) but are woefully let down by their heroes, command abilities and lack of formations (only two of them are viable). Furthermore, the Order allegiance pack is dreadful and does nothing to help Fyreslayers (e.g. Reckless is duplicative with many of their existing abilities) and heroes aren't Fyreslayer's strong point. Nevertheless - I did think that they would be a soft counter to Max's list, so this would be interesting.  

Armies and Battleplan

Max's filth is below:

Leaders
Frostlord on Stonehorn (460)
Huskard on Thundertusk (340)
Huskard on Thundertusk (340)
Huskard on Thundertusk (340)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (60)

Units
Moonclan Grots x 20 (120)
Moonclan Grots x 20 (120)
Moonclan Grots x 20 (120)
Grot Fanatics x 1 (30)
Grot Fanatics x 1 (30)
Grot Fanatics x 1 (30)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions

Total: 1990/2000

 

I brought a 3 drop army:

Forge Brethren	80
1 Auric Runesmiter (General, Forge Key)	100
20 Auric Hearthguard (Battleline)	400
5 Auric Hearthguard (Battleline)	100
5 Auric Hearthguard (Battleline)	100
Lords of the Lodge	160
1 Auric Runefather	100
1 Auric Runemaster	80
1 Battlesmith	100
10 Hearthguard Berserkers	200
1 Auric Runesmiter (Forge Key)	100
30 Vulkite Berserkers (Battleline)	480
	2000

Basically the 30 Vulkites pop up and reliably charge - they do 6 mortal wounds as impact hits, then chop away. The next turn, provided they still have 20 models left, they are rocking a 4+ 4++ save in melee.

The 20 Aurics pop up and shoot stuff with both Magmapikes and axes - they get +1 to hit if a hero is within 5 inches of the target.

The Lords of the Lodge allows me to add 3 to the first initiative roll if all 3 heroes are alive then (it could be a different roll in principle). You have to pre-declare it rather than seeing what you roll and then declaring it (so a lot worse than Kairos's ability). I basically don't use the second ability - the double pile in on the Hearthguard Berserkers - I think they are a waste, since they cannot reliably alpha strike (Vulkites get to reroll a dice of their 9 charge) and are vulnerable if the enemy snipes the supporting heroes that give them their ward save.

The Forge Brethren basically allows me to add a wonky version of mystic shield three times top a unit of units (if the Runesmiter is near the Aurics units). It's very fiddly. You lose the buff when you charge. 

The battleplan was 3 Places of Power. This was truly awful for my list - while I had 6 heroes, they were essentially Thunderturd bait - each a 1 shot. Meanwhile Max had a cumulative 49 wounds worth of heroes (plus the halving wounds mechanic).

 

Deployment 

I deployed on the back line in a 4 inch safety zone (given the effective range of the Thundertusk). I am pretty sure with good rolls that the Stonelord can actually make a charge to the back line, but wasn't too worried as long as Max didn't kill my heroes (since this would impact my ability to get a double turn).

 

Max deployed boxes of Grots around his Thunderturds. He was diagonally opposite me. The Stonelord was central.

My plan was to finish deploying first, make Max go first, pop up, shoot off one Thunderturd, rig the initiative roll, then apply buffs and shoot off one other Thunderturd and do some damage to the Grots or Stonelord. Then the Vulkites (with +3 to their save from the Aurics) would chaff up the Stonelord.

Battleround 1

I gave Max the first turn. He rolled some strong free Destruction moves and strong runs and suddenly the Grots were well into my half of the table. The Thunderturd managed a 6 on its free move and lobbed 6 mortal wounds at the Runemaster who had the temerity to stand 2.4 inches off the back edge. The maximum effective range of the Thunderturd is actually 6+2+8+18 = 34 inches. Many models like Celestial Hurricana and Magmadroths are actually too wide so they cannot avoid being in range. Thankfully the Runemaster is extremely weak, but it was still a scoring unit dead.

Max did fail mystic shield, so his Stonelord remained on a 3+ save.

The Stonelord left itself a gap to charge through between the Grots.

I love the slave on the front.

Score 0-2

In my turn, I looked at the positioning of the Grots and the Thunderturds and got worried that the Fanatics would pin the Vulkites which would stop me getting into the range of a second Thunderturd with the pew pew from the Magmapikes. I changed my plan. Instead of going for the Thundertusks, I reckoned that two rounds of shooting and at least one round of melee uninterrupted by healing would be enough to down the Stonelord. Meanwhile my heroes would waddle towards the objectives.

I premeasured to check I could get all 20 Aurics in range and put them down with the Vulkites in a thick line ahead of them. I put the Runesmiter at the corner so that in the next turn he could get close enough to the Stonelord to give me the +1 to hit buff. The Vulkites would hit the Stonelord and the Grots at the same time (the large bases and tiny Stonelord base really suck).

I activated the Battlesmith's reroll saves aura - it's small but he can at least move while doing it.

 

I did some spectacularly poor running with the dudes at the back and barely got off the back line. I raged about the fact that Order get a bad ward save as a Command Trait and Chaos and Destruction get good ones as an Artefact. The Runefather went for the right objective but didn't get close enought.

As with the Ushabti a few weeks ago, the early round of shooting was important. Now I was rolling 40 dice instead of 12 - this should be closer to the average.

40 shots at 4+, 3+, -1 rend translated into a pitiful 2 wounds - halved to one - atrocious. I should have done 4 after halving. A bad start, but I could still recover. 

Max popped out 2 Fanatics. He made both charges on 7s. This succeeded in blocking any charges. I killed them with the Vulkites. Hopefully the last fanatic would be in the other unit of Grots.

I added 2 to the initiative roll and proceeded to win the roll without needing to use it.

 

Battleround 2

I waddled forward the Vulkites and Aurics. The Runedaddy power waddled towards the objective. Some of the models in the 5 man Aurics units did make it into range of the Stonelord. Hopefully, I could chip away a wound here and a wound there with various types of shooting and this would be enough to kill it before healing spam. I put inspiring presence on the 20 Aurics and +3 to save (since the Vulkites were charging and would lose the save buff).

The Runesmiter ran and was within 5 inches of the Stonelord for the buff. I applied reroll wounds to both the Vulkites and the 20 Aurics.

I started with the axes from the Vulkites - they did a wound to the Stonelord and killed 3 Grots.  The axes from the 20 Aurics all went into the Stonelord with 3+, 4+ rerollable, no rend. They did nothing. The Magmapikes didn't do much better. He lost 6 wounds. The other units of Magmapikes chipped off another wound - so 8 inflicted. He should have already been dead. At least I rolled a 5 and put -1 to hit on the Stonelord to neuter Battlebrew a little.

The Vulkites made a 10 on the charge and got a lot of models around the Stonelord and the rest hit the Grots. I did the impact wounds on the Stonelord and got only 4 - so halved to 2. This meant 10 inflicted - only 3 to go. The Aurics failed a charge into the Grots. 

The Vulkites attacked - about 44 attacks. Max made a truckload of 4+ saves and the Stonelord clung on with 1 wound left. Ridiculous! On a brighter note, I was able to pin the nearby Thundertusk, so it would have to retreat and not shoot or stand there and get slapped. The other Vulkites on the Grots melted the whole unit. The Stonelord attacked and killed 1 Vulkite #wardsave4thewin Both Max and I rolled hit rolls badly and save rolls really well.

In Max's turn, he healed the Stonelord back to 8 wounds inflicted. He also cast mystic shield which was fatal.

He brought forward the back 2 Thunderturds. He lobbed some Grots at the Runedaddy and lost 3 to Deadly terrain. However, they had Inspiring Presence.

The shooting phase was crucial. Thankfully the Vulkites were obstructing the advance of the Thundertusks. This meant that Max was only able to shoot at two of my heroes and only got one shot through - killing the important Runesmiter (I forgot about the Ward Save but on average this didn't matter). The other one rolled a one and didn't kill the other Runesmiter. The third one froze 6 Aurics - thankfully the Inspiring Presence was on them - one good decision by me. Literally Ice vs Fire this game.

 

Max activated the Stonelord and killed only 3 Vulkites. They attacked back and didn't scratch him. The Thunderturd didn't do much.

I won the initiative, so there was still some hope.

Score 0-6

Battleround 3

I rebuffed the Aurics and put +3 to the saves of the Vulkites. The Battlesmith couldn't waddle fast enough to help them though. The Runefather finally started scoring on the right.

I changed tack and tried to kill the scoring Thundertusk - 11 wounds - it clung on with one left. This was game over. The Aurics charged the Grots as did the Hearthguard Berserkers.

 

On a brighter note, the 2+ save Vulkites weathered the storm from the Stonelord for a turn, but couldn't kill it.

Final Score - obliteration

My overall thoughts are as follows.

Max played it well and was his usual gentlemanly self. I was pretty angry to have not even killed a single monster.

Without the fanatics or good deployment, I would have stuck with Plan A and killed the Thundertusks. Even if I had only killed one and crippled another by the end of my double turn, it would have been ok, since the Stonelord wouldn't have globalled the Vulkites and I would have had extra heroes alive. Ironically, had Max gotten mystic shield off from the shaman, I would have had to stick with Plan A. 

The back part of the army were essentially not in the game at all. The Hearthguard Berserkers were 200 points down the drain, the Runedaddy didn't do much.

The Vulkites were decent. The Aurics were ok. The slowness of the supporting units was disappointing.

I'm not convinced by either of the two formations. You're spending a fortune on the Lords of the Lodge and the Runemaster (who buffs the enemy - great) - 240 points in total - for the rigged initiative roll, which you will win half the time anyway. The fundamental premise of the pop up with one melee unit and one short ranged shooting unit is still a good one, but I'm definitely back to the drawing board with this one. It's very tempting to just get the Hurricanum into the list, but I'm trying to keep Allegiance for this one in the hope of an allegiance pack.

I need to watch the Warhammer Weekly video partially on Fyreslayers asap. @Thomas Lyons

Ben S did a good job of defeating @Leonardas with his new Chaos list in the other AoS game. A win for the Sylvaneth!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AlexHarrison]

As stated, from the beginning I was baffled by your choice at shooting the stone lord? The thundertusks are fairly easy to kill in comparison, so I would have just tarpitted the stonelord and shoot the thundertusks.  Unfortunate with your shooting!

[Nico]

Quote

As stated, from the beginning I was baffled by your choice at shooting the stone lord? The thundertusks are fairly easy to kill in comparison, so I would have just tarpitted the stonelord and shoot the thundertusks.  Unfortunate with your shooting!

You're right - what concerned me was the 15 inch range on the Aurics - the first Thunderturd goes down easily. What concerned me was that a Fanatic would block the Vulkites in front of the Aurics in my turn, then I would move up only 4 inches closer with the Aurics and be out of range of the second Thunderturd. Then the Stonehorn would charge and delete half the Vulkites. I was wrong about this (and it would have been way better to have killed one Thundertusk and half killed the Stonelord after my double turn than what actually happened.

[AlexHarrison]

Hindsight is a great thing, but thats what practice games are for eh ots learned in a single game. At least you can see that the list has merit (albeit some tax's) but overall I think next time just stick with your gut feelings. Could have worked out well for you

[Nico]

Well - no-one can say they weren't warned about this list....

A few of my earlier thoughts on the old Thundertusk:

 

Quote

 

Posted July 20 · Report post

Thinking about Ogres - my mind was drawn to their equivalents in Death - Crypt Horrors for Ogre Bulls and Morghast Archai for Ironguts (indeed I'm painting some Ogres to be Crypt Horrors). There's little doubt as to which are better, both statwise and synergies-wise. This makes me conclude that the Stonehorn and particularly the Thundertusk, as the only distinctive aspects of the Ogre army, are critical to their success.

Comparing Ogres and Crypt Horrors

Both have 5+ saves and 4 wounds and weapon stats.

Crypt Horrors have 1 point of extra movement; bravery 10; regeneration of 1 wound per turn; 6s to wound do 50% more damage; and can reroll hit rolls if near a Ghoul King.

Ogres have a 6+ ward against shooting attacks; and some limited rerolls of 1s to hit and wound. 

Adding in the allegiance abilities gives the Crypt Horrors a 5+ ward versus the D6+2 movement in the hero phase - I'd take the ward save.

The problem for the Ogres is they have literally zero combat synergies for the Ogres (correct me if I'm wrong -  ok they could take Gordrakk for 700 points....). Conversely, the spells from the Ghoul Kings can give a reroll wound aura, an extra attack each or an extra 5+ ward save. Oh and a Necromancer can let them pile in and attack twice....

The outcome is probably much the same for Ironguts and Morghast Archai. Archai are more accurate, faster, have bravery 10, have -2 rend, can fly etc.. They are harder to buff to be fair.

However, the Thundertusk's 6 mortal wound ranged attack and the Stonehorn alpha strike are nearly unique (admittedly the Necrosphinx is a better Stonehorn) and incredibly powerful - witness Paul Whitehead's monster mash list of 3 Thundertusks and 3 Stonehorns. The formation is also brutal.

 

 

 

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South London Legion - Narwhal
Rain of Stars - 13th place "mostly grots"!
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@Niconarwhal

 

[Nico]

Quote

So as discussed I took on the undefeated and barely scratched might of Max's Beastclaw Raiders List (3rd Place Trophy Blood & Glory). I think they are staggeringly overpowered and badly designed (healing better than Sylvaneth - that's fluffy) - with the Moonclan battleline fixing the model-lack problem - they are certainly a top tier list along with Stormcast (Warrior Brotherhood (1st Place Trophy Blood & Glory) or Prosecutor spam); Chaos Alpha Strike (2nd Place Trophy Blood & Glory) and Tomb Kings. 

I decided to take my Fyreslayers, which I've been painting up stealthily over the last few months. I think they have some virtues (basically the ability to pop up and shoot and simultaneously get a reliable charge in with ward save battleline units) but are woefully let down by their heroes, command abilities and lack of formations (only two of them are viable). Furthermore, the Order allegiance pack is dreadful and does nothing to help Fyreslayers (e.g. Reckless is duplicative with many of their existing abilities) and heroes aren't Fyreslayer's strong point. Nevertheless - I did think that they would be a soft counter to Max's list, so this would be interesting.