Fanatics - How do you all play them?

[JustPlay-Ritchie]

"Release the Fanatics!: Instead of setting up this unit normally, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in hiding. If you do so, secretly note down one of your units of Moonclan Grots with at least five models for this unit to hide in. At the start of any charge phase you can release the fanatics: set up the Grot Fanatics within 1" of the unit that is hiding them. The Fanatics can then charge, even if it isn’t your charge phase."

My Questions :

I can buy them in units of 1 and I then want to put multiple Fanatic units in one of my Moonclan Grot units, I then want to release them staggered as I see fit. I don't see any issue with this, now is it ruled differently anywhere? 

If I have say 9 units of 1 fanatic that is also 9 drops for deployment (unfortunately) same as above that's how that works never ruled any different? 

I know I am more just making statements here but checking I am not going mad reading this

[Nico]

Quote

You set up each unit one at a time. No unit should be setup as a group unless it is a battalion or the special rules say so.

I would say that the special rule trumps the general rule here (although it could be clearer - like the Runesmiter).

Just like a Runesmiter and its unit (that one is 100% clear as is the Warpgrinder) the Fanatics are deployed (notionally and silently) at the same time as their host unit. The rules clearly intend that you don't give that information to your opponent in any way. The main reason why it isn't a drop is that this would frequently give away such information about where they are (because you would be deploying them into a unit of the board already - or would you? Could you deploy them into a unit you haven't deployed yet?). Having them as a drop just begs loads of additional questions.

What you do have to do is write down on a piece of paper where they are and you should leave that piece of paper somewhere visible (and I cross out the last piece of paper afterwards for the next game to prevent any accusations of shenanigans) - cf the Everchosen dice under a cup rule.

The only "exception" is probably Escalation (which has been generally accepted as overriding formations and the like - at least to the extent that you need to have the models within the waves and you need to fill up all of the formation before you can use it if it requires all the models to come down simultaneously e.g. Ghoul Patrol or Skyborne Slayers.

This is where I coined the term Schrodinger's Grots to explain this. I wrote down which unit the Skulkers were in at the start of the game, but the Skulkers were only deployed into the unit as part of one of the 3 waves - so they counted towards the total number of units before dividing by 3 and rounding up. This bumped me up to 11 units, so waves of 4, 4, 3. 

So if my opponent had killed a host unit, then I lost the Skulkers too; but I couldn't deploy the Skulkers until they arrived in their wave - thus the Skulkers were both in and not in the host unit and whether they were or not could only be determined by an opponent by testing (killing or approaching) the unit. Ah Physics jokes... fond memories.

By coincidence, Ben Curry and I had a chat about this in the bar after the game and he thought I'd been quite generous on this one. 

[gnaleinad]

I am sorry @Nico but Fanatics are not deployed together with the unit. Please read again.

It stated clearly that if and when you decide to set up a Fanatic in hiding, write a note on where it is hidden.
Not before. Does it say you must? Does it say not to set it up? It says set it up in hiding. Deployment is set up, so it just mean that when it comes to this unit of Fanatics in deployment, you can hide it in a unit of Grots, then write a note for proof.
This is meant to be a deliberate deployment, you are suppose to declare that you deployed a unit of fanatics in hidding, just that you do not need to say here. 
Deployment is meant to be 1 unit at a time!

The deployment of Runesmiter off table is also a deployment! Just that you can tag another unit to deploy off table with it!

Do you know what are you implying?? 
So in a 1000 points game, a player with 2 Runesmiter and 2 units of Fyreslayer have 0 deployment?? 
That doesn't make sense right?
You are suppose to declare that you deploy it outside the battlefield! It is a tactical deployment, it did not say there is no need to set up, just set up at a special place!!! 

 

How can such a simple rule be ignored???
Deployment can mean everything in this game. Deploying 2 units in one go, when it is not suppose to be so, is cheating.

Now if I have 10 units of 1 Fanatic? Do I deployment them individually? Yes I suppose to! 
I deployment them as I see my opponent deploy. I put more Fanatics into the unit that will need to release more, as my opponent deploy his units, one by one. 

Do you how broken it will be if Fanatics deployment is with the Grot?
According to your logic, for 600point I can deploy 40 Moonclan Grots with 4 units of Fanatics[5, 5, 1, 1] in one drop. If my army have 11 units I just shave off 4 deployment.
 

[gnaleinad]

@Sarkazim

The above is the instructions from the 4 pages rules. 

Note that it is written "one at a time".

Below is the FAQs clarification of what does set up means exactly, and it explains that it includes units that are deployed in a location other than the table. 

A unit setup in hiding, a unit setup in the Heavenly Realm, a unit setup underground are the many locations where deployment can also occur. 

Each unit need to be set up, one at a time, alternating between the players, starting with the player that won the dice roll.

I am sorry but I can't see how this simple instruction can be interpretated in another way. 

Just like in chess the rules says that the white goes first, and the player each make a move at a time. Even if everyone in your city plays by having the black goes first, the rules still stay. Can you use "that's what everyone arounds me does" to explain in a chess competition? 

What I'm conveying here is that some things do have right and wrong. 

But you are free to not follow. 

The rules as written instructed players to alternate setting up units one at a time, special/unique setup not exempted.

The FAQs clarified those special setup units must also be included in the alternating.

[gnaleinad]

Just to settle this kettle once and for all. Fanatics unit need to be set-up during deployment.

Set-up had been explained. So..


In a tournament setting bending the rules just because it is more convenience is cheating. Such rules are there for fair play. The ability to choose who goes first is very important in a tournament game.

We are discussing on the topic of what is proper here, the correct way to set-up Fanatics during deployment, according to the rules.
How you wanna play in other places is completely up to you, be it you want to follow the rules or not.

1 hour ago, Sarkazim said:

While you do have a point about 'shaving' units off deployment, it's not nearly as broken as you think.  Battalions do the same thing since they're usually deployed as one.

You paid point for those battalions to deploy those units as one drop. Fanatics are costly but it is because of their special ability and damage output. 

[gnaleinad]

1 hour ago, Sarkazim said:

There is NO rule that forces a player to pop them all out before rolling the first charge roll.  That breaks the instructions on how to resolve multiple abilities.  We are told to do the EXACT opposite of what you're saying a player CANNOT do.  Stop telling players that they have to place a model outside of the ability, before using the ability that includes placement as part of it's use.  NOT before it is used.

Hmm was there another way to use this ability? LOL. I thought it was clear. 
Yes, you are correct sir.

[Sarkazim]

It's still Open.  Like it or hate it, it's not definitive.  

Short Answer: No rules are being broken when an 'Instead of deploying normally' ability is used.

Counting as one of the placed units for determining who goes first is part of setting up normally.  These units aren't doing that because they have a rule that doesn't do things normally.  Hidden or Special deployments all have 'Instead of...' attached to the rule.  So yes, as stupid as it is, it's quite possible for Fireslayers to have 0 Deployments.  

The Fanatic rule says clearly 'Instead of setting up normally, place the unit to the side and say that it is set up in hiding.'. It leaves us with the un-resolved question of does it count as setting up a unit or not?  You're telling us that 'When is time to setup this unit... then state they are going in to hiding' is the rule.  When its just as valid to place them all to the side and say they are set up there before setting up any unit, on either side.  

You're resting your whole argument on 'saying it is setup' and 'Set-up' is the same thing.  Which is valid, and if someone insisted on it, then I think you'll find most people pretty cool with that.  My experience is that those people are rare.  Majority of the people I've played have agreed to 'count them as one deployment' not because that is what they are actually doing, but that is the result of what is going on.  There isn't anything forcing a player to have to decide to setup a unit using its rule when you get to it, or count these units as being setup for purposes of determining who goes first.  That would be something normally done.

With Fanatics, Assassins, Fireslayers, Skrye, etc.  The player simply has to say that they are hidden, underground, riding the lightning, during setup.  That's the limit of what the rule tells us we have to do.  A lack of specific instructions about when to do it could mean that we apply all the normal rules until instructed otherwise.  Dropping the Battalions as a single choice is an example that the normal rules don't even apply when using that method.

 

[Sarkazim]

 

41 minutes ago, gnaleinad said:

Hmm was there another way to use this ability? LOL. I thought it was clear. 
Yes, you are correct sir.

This is more of an ongoing debate I have with Nico across several threads.  The tooltip in the Battletomes says that when there are multiple abilities that can be used at the same time, the controlling player chooses the order they are used.  His group plays where they have to declare all of them that are going to be used before they can be put in order to resolve them.  While there is nothing in the rules against this, it's not required, and there are no penalties.

So if the Grot player has 3 Fanatic units hidden in one unit, he has to state that he is using 1-3 of them before resolving the Charges of any of them.  I agree that the unit sizes must be determined before game.  Nothing forces a player to declare them all, and there isn't anything preventing the second or third unit from going if the first doesn't make it.

[Nico]

@Sarkazim

You're actually responding to a post I made back in October. I've since agreed with you on the other thread on that particular point. This is an old thread.

What I said most recently is to explain in advance that you might drop multiple assassins one after another as a matter of courtesy. Otherwise the opponent may be confused.

@gnaleinad

2 Runesmiters with 2 units is 2 drops (not zero and not 4).

You're probably right about Fanatics being a drop. It could be clearer (the instead of wording can be interpreted both ways)

[Sarkazim]

@Nico, Sorry, I just now saw that this is over a month old.  I usually just lurk in this forum to see if there is anything that I need to understand, and when I read this, I didn't check the dates. 
 

6 hours ago, Nico said:

2 Runesmiters with 2 units is 2 drops (not zero and not 4).

I think this is what we're struggling with tbh.  Counting the 2 units as deploying, and not counting the Runesmiters when it's the same rule.  It almost feels like a pick n choose scenario again.  I meant to say that it's possible to have a ZERO drop deployment if we're going to interpret the rule as not counting toward the limit.  Like the other rules, there is nothing stopping a player from choosing to count them as a drop or not, much like the Battalion FAQ.

If someone pushed hard enough, I'd just roll with it.  It's not broken in anyway and is allowed by the rules.  It's easier for me to sit back and just ask 'Do you want to go first?  Fine, then you can go first.' and then deploy accordingly, because that's the only reason to push so hard for it.

[rokapoke]

3 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

I think this is what we're struggling with tbh.  Counting the 2 units as deploying, and not counting the Runesmiters when it's the same rule.  It almost feels like a pick n choose scenario again.  I meant to say that it's possible to have a ZERO drop deployment if we're going to interpret the rule as not counting toward the limit.  Like the other rules, there is nothing stopping a player from choosing to count them as a drop or not, much like the Battalion FAQ.
 

Except it's clearly NOT the same rule. The Runesmiter specifies "Instead of setting up an Auric Runesmiter and up to one other Fyreslayer unit" (emphasis mine)... the Assassin specifies " Instead of setting up the Assassin normally" -- so clearly, the 2x Runesmiters plus 2x other units = 2 drops, whereas 2x Assassins plus 2x other units = 4 drops.

[gnaleinad]

@Sarkazim

There's no ambiguity in the post I put up.

In the FAQs it gave a few examples of special setup in deployment.

As you can see the Chameleon Skinks ability is written in the same fashion as the Fanatics.

And the FAQs already answered that it will still take 1 drop during deployment. 

Such creative reading/interpretation of the word "instead" to bend core game rules is just sad. "Instead" had never meant "Ignore".

The meaning of instead is alternative or substitute.