Stuff that all happens "at the start of the hero phase" - sequencing rule doesn't seem to cover declaring abilities, only resolving them?

[yukishiro1]

This is something I can't figure out from the 3.0 base rules - when two abilities resolve at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to choose the order of resolution. But that doesn't address when you have to declare such abilities in the first place. For example, a bunch of stuff in this game now happens "at the start of the hero phase" - notably heroic actions and battle tactics, but also stuff like Blood Tithe. Many of these things are optional, and in many cases it's extremely beneficial if you can wait to declare them until after your opponent declares their battle tactic (i.e. responding to slay the warlord with finest hour, using blood tithe to move a unit away after your opponent declares a plan that involves killing it, etc). 

To the extent that sequencing matters, the player whose turn it is chooses the order of resolution - but that doesn't answer the question of order of declaration.  My read is that because declaring a battle tactic is mandatory, that gives the opponent a chance to react to that by exercising any optional ability they may have that also occurs at the same time. Does this seem right? The heroic action example is complicated further by the fact that the player whose turn it is has to declare first, making it clearer that the player whose turn it isn't gets to react to that choice, and thus presumably also to the battle tactic - unless the player whose turn it is can elect to do heroic actions first, and only declare their battle tactic after they're all done? 

When both effects are optional, I honestly have no idea what you're supposed to do if both players are playing "chicken" and want to wait for the other person to declare. A concrete example would be that it's my opponent's turn, and I would rather wait to see what heroic action he picks before I choose whether to use Blood Tithe, but he'd rather wait to start declaring heroic actions until I declare whether I'm going to do anything with Blood Tithe. Do you just have to roll off and whoever wins can force the other player to declare whether they'll use theirs first? Is there some answer to this conundrum I've missed in the rules? 

[Dogmantra]

The effect that you are resolving is that you are choosing a battle tactic/heroic action. There is no precedent in the rest of the rulebook for "declaring" an effect or ability to be any different or somehow separate from the first part of resolving that ability.

Thus you choose the battle tactics in the order prescribed by the rulebook: active player does all of theirs in whichever order they like first, then other player does all of theirs in whichever order they like. Then you move from start of hero phase to during hero phase and do the same.

EDIT: It's worth remembering that as per 1.6.2 Simultaneous Effects, the active player only chooses the order of their effects, then the other player resolves all of theirs in the order of their choice. This eliminates a problem that I think you are seeing where the other player can dictate the order by only revealing what they are doing in the specific order they would like to do it in.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Dogmantra

[yukishiro1]

So are you saying that 1.6.2 applies not only to resolving the effects, but also stating that you're doing the thing? So the player whose turn it is does not have to state an intention to use any "start of the hero phase" abilities until the player whose turn it is has done everything they intend to do at the start of the hero phase? 

To give a concrete example: I have a bloodthirster I could charge your hero with in your hero phase using Blood Tithe. Your hero could use Finest Hour, but you would only want to do so if I'm going to charge. Both of these abilities are done at the start of the hero phase. So since it's your turn, you have to declare whether you're using Finest Hour before I have to say whether I'm charging? 

Edited October 18, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Liquidsteel]

2 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

So are you saying that 1.6.2 applies not only to resolving the effects, but also stating that you're doing the thing? So the player whose turn it is does not have to state an intention to use any "start of the hero phase" abilities until the player whose turn it is has done everything they intend to do at the start of the hero phase? 

To give a concrete example: I have a bloodthirster I could charge your hero with in your hero phase using Blood Tithe. Your hero could use Finest Hour, but you would only want to do so if I'm going to charge. Both of these abilities are done at the start of the hero phase. So since it's your turn, you have to declare whether you're using Finest Hour before I have to say whether I'm charging? 

This is correct. Active player does ALL of their start of hero phase stuff first, then inactive player does their start of hero phase stuff once the active player is finished.

You've created an additional step yourself in this declaration of what you intend to do, you don't declare anything, you just do it.

As the inactive player, you do your heroic action once the active player has finished their entire start of hero phase actions, so after this you are free to charge immediately.

[Dogmantra]

3 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

So are you saying that 1.6.2 applies not only to resolving the effects, but also stating that you're doing the thing? So the player whose turn it is does not have to state an intention to use any "start of the hero phase" abilities until the player whose turn it is has done everything they intend to do at the start of the hero phase? 

Yes. Choosing to use an optional effect is part of resolving it.

Take for example an ability that says "In the hero phase, this unit can make a normal move"

Rather than thinking of making a choice between whether you resolve it or not, instead imagine that you are resolving it every turn and simply declining to use the effects sometimes. Rather than being an action that you explicitly choose to trigger, this ability is triggered "in the hero phase", so it happens then. The effect is to give you the choice of whether to make a normal move or not. If you choose not to, you are still resolving the effects. For simplicity's sake and to save time, people generally do not go through and actively state that they are choosing not to do optional things, but this is the principle at play.

[yukishiro1]

Ok, thanks, that makes sense and clears it up for me. 

[LordDave]

On 10/17/2021 at 4:49 PM, Dogmantra said:

The effect that you are resolving is that you are choosing a battle tactic/heroic action. There is no precedent in the rest of the rulebook for "declaring" an effect or ability to be any different or somehow separate from the first part of resolving that ability.

Thus you choose the battle tactics in the order prescribed by the rulebook: active player does all of theirs in whichever order they like first, then other player does all of theirs in whichever order they like. Then you move from start of hero phase to during hero phase and do the same.

EDIT: It's worth remembering that as per 1.6.2 Simultaneous Effects, the active player only chooses the order of their effects, then the other player resolves all of theirs in the order of their choice. This eliminates a problem that I think you are seeing where the other player can dictate the order by only revealing what they are doing in the specific order they would like to do it in.

This is really helpful - I thought I understood this, but reading this realize I didn’t, but I do now!