Wound allocation on abilities causing MWs to multiple units simultaneously.

[Sooper88]

Scenario: You have a spell, let's say Comet's Call, that has been cast and has rolled do cause 1d3 mortal wounds to 3 target units (units A, B and C), and ends up rolling 2 for each unit.

The mortal wounds happen simultaneously, right? And as the defending player, I choose which order wounds are allocated, so does this mean that I theoretically allocate a wound to unit A, then one to unit B, then one to unit C, and repeat?

The core rules has this to offer:

"Allocate any mortal wounds that are caused while a unit is attacking at the same time as any other wounds caused by the unit’s attacks, after all of the unit’s attacks have been completed. Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack.

After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes."

As per the bolded line, mortal wounds caused by the above scenario where multiple wounds are applied to multiple units simultaneously, would all 3 units be considered the targeted unit?

If not, and let's say it doesn't necessarily work in this way, but I still choose to allocate wounds one at a time, and we determine mortal wounds at the time of being applied to a target unit, which player determines the order in which the 3 units targeted by comet's call suffers the mortal wounds first?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[NinthMusketeer]

The caster chooses the order. The technical sequence is as follows:

-Comet's Call is cast.

-Casting player rolls a dice to see how many units are picked.

-Casting player picks the resulting number of units.

-Casting player then chooses one of the picked units and rolls a dice to see how many mortal wounds it suffers.

-The mortal wounds are allocated to that unit. This is the "as soon as they occur" part of mortal wound allocation. Note that the other units picked by the spell are not yet affected; the number of mortal wounds they will suffer has not even been rolled.

-Once the mortal wounds to the first unit have been allocated, any associated abilities resolved, and any slain models removed, the attacker chooses another of the units picked by the spell and rolls to see the number of mortal wounds it suffers.

 

Notes:

-"in the same manner as damage allocated by damage for an attack" is referencing the "Allocating Wounds" rules, not any of the other rules for attacking.

-There is similar precedent for the above sequence in the rules for splitting attacks among multiple targets: "When you split the attacks made by a weapon between two or more enemy units, you must resolve all of the attacks against one unit before moving on to the next one."

-I completely agree a FAQ to make this clear, or better yet something in the next edition's core rules, would be great.

Edited December 3, 2020 by NinthMusketeer

[Kramer]

5 hours ago, Sooper88 said:

Scenario: You have a spell, let's say Comet's Call, that has been cast and has rolled do cause 1d3 mortal wounds to 3 target units (units A, B and C), and ends up rolling 2 for each unit.

The mortal wounds happen simultaneously, right? And as the defending player, I choose which order wounds are allocated, so does this mean that I theoretically allocate a wound to unit A, then one to unit B, then one to unit C, and repeat?

The core rules has this to offer:

"Allocate any mortal wounds that are caused while a unit is attacking at the same time as any other wounds caused by the unit’s attacks, after all of the unit’s attacks have been completed. Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack.

After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes."

As per the bolded line, mortal wounds caused by the above scenario where multiple wounds are applied to multiple units simultaneously, would all 3 units be considered the targeted unit?

If not, and let's say it doesn't necessarily work in this way, but I still choose to allocate wounds one at a time, and we determine mortal wounds at the time of being applied to a target unit, which player determines the order in which the 3 units targeted by comet's call suffers the mortal wounds first?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

comet's call specifies you 'roll separately for each' so the mortal wounds suffered are specific to those target units. So you treat all D3 as separate instances.

"Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur"

 

So the mortal wounds are allocated by the defending player to a model in the unit.
(I think you are right that it reads like it's written for attacks that target one unit. Which are most of them to be fair. But comet's call has D3 separate targets for purposes of this rule and every one suffers a specific amount of mortal wounds per target.)

Regarding the second part of your question. It would very rarely matter, but since it's an action by the casting player I would say it's the casting player not the player who allocates the mortal wounds. 

I'll see if I can find the time to find some actual sources to support the above. But I feel it's mostly down to the interpretation of the word Target unit. For me there is no argument to be made that it would include all D3 units affected by comets call as one target unit. 

 

[Sooper88]

4 hours ago, Kramer said:

comet's call specifies you 'roll separately for each' so the mortal wounds suffered are specific to those target units. So you treat all D3 as separate instances.

"Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur"

 

So the mortal wounds are allocated by the defending player to a model in the unit.
(I think you are right that it reads like it's written for attacks that target one unit. Which are most of them to be fair. But comet's call has D3 separate targets for purposes of this rule and every one suffers a specific amount of mortal wounds per target.)

Regarding the second part of your question. It would very rarely matter, but since it's an action by the casting player I would say it's the casting player not the player who allocates the mortal wounds. 

I'll see if I can find the time to find some actual sources to support the above. But I feel it's mostly down to the interpretation of the word Target unit. For me there is no argument to be made that it would include all D3 units affected by comets call as one target unit. 

 

That's a fair interpretation, however, which player would decide the order on which what unit suffers the mortal wounds? The defending player?

 

I'm seeing multiple different interpretations of this ruling on various different places that I'm posing this question. Some interpret that all of the wounds happen simultaneously so the defending player would allocate them all as one target even though they are separate units because comet's call doesn't specify the different unit being affected in any specific order. Others seem to thing the defending player chooses which order the mortal wounds resolve in. No one is able to find a source for anything.

 

The main reason why I find this important is because I play OBR and this can potentially alter how strong a Harvester is against spells or abilities like Comet's Call because ensuring surrounding Mortek Guard did before the Harvester does can mean the Harvester is able to pass on its buff for longer.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sooper88

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Sooper88 said:

That's a fair interpretation, however, which player would decide the order on which what unit suffers the mortal wounds? The defending player?

 

I'm seeing multiple different interpretations of this ruling on various different places that I'm posing this question. Some interpret that all of the wounds happen simultaneously so the defending player would allocate them all as one target even though they are separate units because comet's call doesn't specify the different unit being affected in any specific order. Others seem to thing the defending player chooses which order the mortal wounds resolve in. No one is able to find a source for anything.

 

The main reason why I find this important is because I play OBR and this can potentially alter how strong a Harvester is against spells or abilities like Comet's Call because ensuring surrounding Mortek Guard did before the Harvester does can mean the Harvester is able to pass on its buff for longer.

But the wound allocation happens after the attack sequence. in this case a spell. Which happen d3 times according to the spell. 
 

then when the attack is resolved the defending players gets to allocate to that specific unit. See above. 

so to me the order seems clear: 
I cast spell. Roll d3 for amount of targets. Pick the first target unit. Resolve attack which is just rolling for d3 mortal wounds. You allocate them one at a time to the unit that I target. once that is done. I move on to the second and third unit if I rolled high enough to select them. 

The harvester rule does let you roll the ‘harverst’ rule after every model is slain it seems. But I’m not familiar enough with those rules to be honest. 
 

im struggling a bit with the interpretation you suggested as it would mean, Imo, to fuse three separate attacks together. (Which immediately breaks down if it’s units with different mortal wounds saves in this example) 

[Sooper88]

Okay, just to be clear are you suggesting that the casting player or the defending player would choose which unit gets hit with the mortal wounds first?

I would think the defending player gets to choose the order and then allocates the wounds accordingly to the roll of the casting player. It doesn't make mention of the units being targeted in any specific order and since the defending player gets to allocate wounds, my interpretation would be that I would allocate wounds amongst one of the targeted units, then move to another and allocate wounds there, etc etc. 

The casting player getting control over which units have to remove slain models first adds a potentially significant boost in power to that spell if they can ensure a target unit that grants a defensive bonus to the other targeted units dies first.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sooper88

[Kramer]

10 minutes ago, Sooper88 said:

Okay, just to be clear are you suggesting that the casting player or the defending player would choose which unit gets hit with the mortal wounds first?

I would think the defending player gets to choose the order and then allocates the wounds accordingly to the roll of the casting player. It doesn't make mention of the units being targeted in any specific order and since the defending player gets to allocate wounds, my interpretation would be that I would allocate wounds amongst one of the targeted units, then move to another and allocate wounds there, etc etc. 

The casting player getting control over which units have to remove slain models first adds a potentially significant boost in power to that spell if they can ensure a target unit that grants a defensive bonus to the other targeted units dies first.

Oh sorry I misunderstood the question then. 
but then the answer is quite simple right? The attacking player chooses the order. 
just like with any action. The player that makes the action decides. 

[Sooper88]

If only it were so simple of a question. There's unfortunately no source that supports that's how that the ordering would occur. The defending player choosing the order seems to be the most common response I've gotten from other places I've asked the question since the defending player allocates the wounds and the spell seems to imply the mortal wounds occur simultaneously but again there's no source text that can really confirm or deny it specifically.

I appreciate your input in either case. Wish GW could be a little more detailed with their rules, they certainly have a history of including ambiguous rulings.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sooper88

[Kramer]

1 minute ago, Sooper88 said:

If only it were so simple of a question. There's unfortunately no source that supports that's how that the ordering would occur. The defending player choosing the order seems to be the most common response I've gotten from other places I've asked the question since the defending player allocates the wounds and the spell seems to imply the mortal wounds occur simultaneously but again there's no source text that can really confirm or deny it specifically.

I appreciate your input in either case. Wish GW could be a little more detailed with their rules, they certainly have a history of including ambiguous rulings.

For what it’s worth I’d say it’s in the word pick. I as the casting player pick. 
So I pick target 1. Resolve mortal wounds. . Pick target 2.  Etc. 

but here, and I feel online as well, with area of attack spells, multiple target spells, everything really it’s the attacking player who decides who to attack first.  
but I’ll let it rest. 

Just out of curiosity the people who say it’s the defending player who decides where to start. Do they have any sources or similar circumstances? 

[Sooper88]

The same source you referenced. The only difference is that they interpret the mortal wounds technically as all occurring at the same time, but the defending playing can only allocate the wounds amongst a target unit so the priority would be on them to choose.  

Don't get me wrong, I can see the logic behind what you're saying, and an argument could be made for the casting player choosing the order, but since the only precedent that exists in the rulebook about ordering of wounds states that the one suffering the wounds chooses the order, it seems like it is more likely that the defending player would choose the ordering and not the casting, since the spell doesn't reference any specific order.

I think if the spell made even some sort vague implication of there being some sort of sequencing of the mortal wounds being applied, I think I'd be more inclined to agree with your interpretation, but there isn't so I'm leaning towards the defending player choosing.

 

This is definitely something that warrants an FAQ though! I've read at least 3 different interpretations of this from multiple people and they all could arguably be correct.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sooper88