Help noob - Sacrosanct ranged 1k point

[Ciotola]

hi everyone, i'm going to start playing with an annoying stormcast list, i have as a maximum budget the christmas battleforce discounted at 25% (108 euro) or corresponding boxes of the same value and i already have 10 judicators and a lord arcanum on gryph / dracoline

 

these are my 2 lists:

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- General
- Command Trait : Deathly Aura
- Artefact : Soulthief
- Scrolls of Power (Artefact) : Storm Scroll
- Celestial Staves (Artefact) : Mindlock Staff
- Spell : Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait : Keen-clawed
UNITS
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3 x Stormsmite Greatmaces
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 2 x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration : Celestial Blades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1 x Shockbolt Bows
WAR MACHINES
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)

 

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- General
- Command Trait : Deathly Aura
- Artefact : Soulthief
- Scrolls of Power (Artefact) : Storm Scroll
- Celestial Staves (Artefact) : Mindlock Staff
- Spell : Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait : Keen-clawed
Knight-Azyros (100)
- Artefact : Armor of Silvered Sigmarite
- Mystic Light (Artefact) : Lantern of the Tempest
UNITS
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3 x Stormsmite Greatmaces
10 x Judicators (320)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1 x Shockbolt Bows
WAR MACHINES
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)

 

 

any advice, build lists or criticisms are welcome, ty.

 

[NauticalSoup]

Other more experienced players may be able to help you more with the nitty gritty of listbuilding as I am still a relative novice, but one thing I can tell you is that the competitive anvilstrike shootcast lists all seem to use a big blob of Vanguard-Raptors with Aetherwings. Besides just being a solid pair of units (by SCE standards especially) they couple ideally with the anvilstrike CA since all 9 longstrikes/hurricanes can take an additional second volley, whereas using the CA on a single celestar ballista is... well to be honest, the shooting output of single ballistas without an ordinator is pretty mediocre. Assuming your rend completely obliterates the target's save, and you are in 18", it's still only 2-4 damage per ballista. 5 Judicators produce a similar amount of damage to a single ballista although at a worse rend, so your 10 Judicators will be the best target for the CA and still only dribble damage.

For comparison 9 longstrikes do 11-13 damage (with a sixth of them being mortals) so doubleshooting them lets you clean up a couple critical targets right away - they also have better range. That's not to say celestars are useless, I have 4 and have had success using them coupled with a Lord Ordinator - but if I can't take at least 3 + the Lord I find they perform so poorly that I'd rather save the points for something else that can dish out some real damage, like Evocators. 

Without a really strong target for the Anvilhammer CA (like a massive shooty unit, or even a massive hammer unit like 10 Evos or 6 Evokitties) I wonder if maybe you would be better off just going with no stormhost so you can take Stout Defender. Maybe a more experienced SCE player can weigh in.

Also having played a number of (punishing) 1k games as SCE I am pretty confident in saying you're going to want more than 5 sequitors to screen your  shooters and dracs. It's not ideal but 5 sequitors are pretty easy to either destroy or go around which leaves all your damage dealers completely exposed. I suppose the Judicators can also screen but they're likely serving as your CA outlet so I wouldn't want them to die frivolously protecting units with less damage output.

Important note: you are taking too many artifacts. The army gets one + another for each battalion (zero in your case). Since you are playing a stormhost your one artefact is eaten up by the mandatory soulthief. The tables having different names (scroll, staff, etc) really just serve to indicate who is allowed to take them.

Edited January 6, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Ciotola]

ty man, raptors are cool .better to play them with longstrike or hurricane? and are aeterwings units necessary? what is their purpose? thank's for help

[NauticalSoup]

I have seen people use both longstrikes and hurricanes and the math suggests both hold their own. Longstrikes and hurricanes both recently got a pretty (some would say unjustified nerf) in that their 'stand still' ability doesn't work when you use the anvilhammer CA due to them not technically having stood still yet in the movement phase. Longstrikes lose 6" range which is annoying but probably manageable given their base range isn't bad, while hurricanes lose 30% of their firepower which is a brutal downgrade. I would imagine going forward longstrikes will therefore be preferable most of the time. I haven't played much with either though so I'd look to more competitive players to know for sure.

Aetherwings are not 'necessary' but they ARE rad. This rule is what makes them great:

'At the start of the enemy charge phase, if this unit is wholly within 18" of a friendly unit of VANGUARD-RAPTORS, this unit can move up to 2D6". They must finish the move wholly within 18" of the same unit of VANGUARD-RAPTORS .'

I mentioned screening before. This lets the aetherwings block enemy chargers and protect your soft shooters from getting dogpiled. I haven't had a change to use them much, but I understand that there has historically been some ambiguity about aetherwings being able to move within 3" of enemies with their special move thus 'shutting off' their charge move and wasting a turn - the logic being that this is in the charge phase and is not a normal move, so the 3" limit should not apply. I'd post about this in rules questions though if you want a firm tournament-level answer if this is still allowed though.

[l1censetochill]

@NauticalSoup already pointed out a couple things I noticed in your lists - namely, too many artifacts and that ballistas don't pair well with the Anvils command ability, so I won't belabor those points. And for what it's worth, I'd go a step further: two ballistas with no Lord-Ordinator are going to be pretty underwhelming for their points in most games. You may occasionally spike a roll and wipe a unit, and it'll feel good, but they're very inconsistent. You pretty much need at least 3 ballistas with a Lord-Ordinator to make them worth taking in a list. In each case, I'd suggest dropping the ballistas for a Lord-Castellant and something else... maybe another unit of Sequitors, if you can squeeze them in.

I'd say that for the top list, Anvils would be a poor Stormhost to choose overall. You don't have any units worth shooting with for the cost of a CP, and the ability to pile in and attack in the hero phase probably won't be all that useful; in a lot of cases a unit of 3 Dracolines will either completely shred an enemy unit on the charge, or, if they hit something they can't kill in one turn, they'll get wiped out when the enemy attacks back. Meanwhile, 5 Sequitors just don't do enough damage to justify using the CP on them, even if they get charged and survive the first round of combat. And beyond the Command Ability, Anvils just doesn't give you much... re-rolling failed battleshock tests is meh, the Deathly Aura trait is mostly meaningless, and the Soulthief artifact is pure tax.

For a list like that, I'd honestly say the Celestial Vindicators stormhost would be quite a bit better - a CP to give your Dracolines +1 attack (to both the Evocators and the mounts) is much better for what they're trying to do. They've also got a trait that's actually somewhat helpful, letting you re-roll 1s to wound on the charge (and with Dracolines, you always want to be the one charging). And if you've already got a Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline, you might as well take it instead of the Gryph-Charger. Take the Pride Leader trait, and as long as the Evocators are in range they also get +1 to hit, which is quite solid.

If you want to aim for a Dracoline list at 1k, I'd probably aim for something like the following:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Castellant (120)

Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Units
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 54

*****

It's not perfect, but no 1k list is going to be perfect for us - we rely too much on synergy between our units and (expensive) heroes to bring us up to par with a lot of the units other armies can field unsupported, and in low-points games that's a big limitation. But it's serviceable, with a reasonable mix of solid anvil battleline (Sequitors), a fast hammer unit (Dracolines), and some annoying shooting that can deepstrike and blow up screens with sheer volume of shots (Hurricanes). It's not a list I've played, but it's actually what I'm planning to use  when my Escalation League reaches 1k.

*****

Also, one last thing - @NauticalSoup, just so you know, the Aetherwing movement question was answered in the FAQ of the August 2019 White Dwarf, and you can indeed move them within 3" of enemy units to completely prevent charges. You're right, though, that it's an awesome and super powerful ability that is at least partially responsible for making Anvilstrike competitive.

Edited January 6, 2020 by l1censetochill

[NauticalSoup]

22 minutes ago, l1censetochill said:

Also, one last thing - @NauticalSoup, just so you know, the Aetherwing movement question was answered in the FAQ of the August 2019 White Dwarf, and you can indeed move them within 3" of enemy units to completely prevent charges. You're right, though, that it's an awesome and super powerful ability that is at least partially responsible for making Anvilstrike competitive.

Perfect - thank you for the clarification!

[Ciotola]

ty all , anvil strike is the list I want to try:
cowardly playstyle
ranged attaks
hateful for opponents

this is the idea:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
LEADERS
Lord-Aquilor (180)
- General
- Command Trait : Deathly Aura
- Artefact : Soulthief
- Mount Trait : Keen-clawed
UNITS
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (110)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Storm Sabres
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (110)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Storm Sabres
3 x Vanguard-Palladors (180)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)
3 x Aetherwings (50)

 

the idea would be to keep raptors, leaders and aetherwings in reserve and deploy them with the ability of stormcasts on an object and in enemy ranges. make heavy fire phases and defend longstrike with aterwings, load and move with hunters and palladors.

however, I am doubtful against the hordes.
I can replace the 6 longstrike and aetherwings with 9 hurricane raptors, similar tactic but I would use on an object and I would thin out the ranks

or better to deploy the hunters and try to position themselves very well with the longstrikes?

[Ciotola]

any tips ?

[NauticalSoup]

Just that if you are deep striking the shooters you will not be able to doubleshoot turn 1 with the CA since they deploy at the end of the movement phase and you will have missed your hero phase. 

Otherwise you seem to have pivoted heavily into vanguard units and I have never used or seen anyone use any vanguard stuff besides longstrikes/hurricanes. Not sure if they're particularly effective compared to the sacrosanct units, or if vanguard-hunters compare favourably to judicators as battleline. I would imagine not or I think they would appear in more lists.

[Alladinthepaladin]

On 1/6/2020 at 7:52 PM, Ciotola said:

ty all , anvil strike is the list I want to try:
cowardly playstyle
ranged attaks
hateful for opponents

this is the idea:

***List Cut for Space***

the idea would be to keep raptors, leaders and aetherwings in reserve and deploy them with the ability of stormcasts on an object and in enemy ranges. make heavy fire phases and defend longstrike with aterwings, load and move with hunters and palladors.

however, I am doubtful against the hordes.
I can replace the 6 longstrike and aetherwings with 9 hurricane raptors, similar tactic but I would use on an object and I would thin out the ranks

or better to deploy the hunters and try to position themselves very well with the longstrikes?

I have also jumped into a vanguard-style 1K list (full-well knowing the massive power imbalance vs a significant portion of armies out there).

My primary goal is just painting up a small force of models which I find are among the best looking in the range (palladors, Aquilor, hunters), and to use them in friendly games with people who won’t net-list me with the latest shenanigans. I am not even considering the one good unit in the vanguard chamber for now (longstrikes)

Going on to strategy, I have tried to read up on every Vanguard thread/reddit/blog post possible... needless to say there’s not much since most are focussed on tournament lists and (non-Longstrike) Vanguard is definitely NOT synonymous with tournament lists. So my advice is arm-chair Generalship. 

That said, at 1K you will not be able to do all the things you want. Your list has decent shooting power, primarily to take out support HQs or weaken the tougher, elite units.

I agree with the above post by NauticalSoup - keep your Aquilor, longstrikes and birds on the ground, as well as your Palladors since they can ride the winds. Your biggest issue will be getting double turned, with 6 drops you are probably getting to pick deployment order less than half the time, so smart opponents will give you T1, protect their assets from your shooting as best as possible, and then hope for a double turn to run at you and tear you to shreds.

How you play the list depends a lot on your opponent and the battleplan, but generally my understanding with vanguard is you do not engage, but rather keep your distance, and bait your opponents into making poor game choices.

At 1K, most strong lists have one big scary unit/Death Star, sometimes two. Additionally they have support characters to buff them up. I saw a dual Keeper of Secrets list that would absolutely rip your list apart, but that’s the risk you take with Vanguard... to be honest it would do a number on most SCE thoigh

Other examples are FEC or Death, who can bring a nigh unkillable HQ beatstick, as well as big horde of something. 

I feel these are all very difficult scenarios for your list (worse for mine).

Vs a more fairly-matched opponent, you would use your Shooting to chip away at the HQs or elite units while grabbing objectives, and causing target priority issues. Try and pick your engagements wisely, none of your units are significant damage dealers.

I have rambled on much to long already, but the last point I have is try and find some “high-level” general AoS tactics. A lot of it involves positioning, movement and things that almost players never consider. There was a great article I read some time back but can’t for the life of me find it again, and it was really eye-opening. If I find it I will post on here.

In summary, good hunting and good luck!