Soul Cage and Smashing and Bashing interaction

[Superninja]

Hello all.  The soul cage spell for nighthaunt makes a unit fight at the end of the combat phase from what I understand.  from faq:(Page 55 – Soul CageChange the last sentence to:‘In addition, until your next hero phase, that unit fights at the end of the combat phase.’)

Smashing and Bashing (Ironjawz allegiance ability) allows a unit to fight immediately.

IF the ironjawz player has killed a unit, thus activating Smashing and Bashing, could the ironjawz player activate and attack with the unit that has been soul caged?

Edited October 31, 2019 by Superninja

[Isotop]

4 hours ago, Superninja said:

Hello all.  The soul cage spell for nighthaunt makes a unit fight at the end of the combat phase from what I understand.  from faq:(Page 55 – Soul CageChange the last sentence to:‘In addition, until your next hero phase, that unit fights at the end of the combat phase.’)

Smashing and Bashing (Ironjawz allegiance ability) allows a unit to fight immediately.

IF the ironjawz player has killed a unit, thus activating Smashing and Bashing, could the ironjawz player activate and attack with the unit that has been soul caged?

Check out this FAQ:

 

"Q: If a Wildfire Taurus’ Whirlwind of Destruction ability forces an Idoneth Deepkin unit to fight at the end of the next combat phase, but the High Tide battle trait is in effect, does the unit fight at the start or the end of the combat phase? A: If two abilities that apply to a unit are contradictory and cannot both be applied, the one that was applied second takes precedence. In this case, that means the Idoneth Deepkin unit would fight at the end of the combat phase. Note this only occurs when it impossible to use both abilities. For example, if one ability gave a unit a hit modifier of +1 and another ability gave the same unit a hit modifier of -1, both would be applied (and effectively cancel each other out)."

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/age_of_sigmar_beasts_of_chaos_designers_commentary_en.pdf)

 

Fighting at the end of the combat phase and fighting immediately are clearly contradicting each other (the truth of one implicates the falsehood of the other and vice versa). Therefore the last ability applied (in this case Smashing and Bashing) takes precedence.

[Superninja]

thank you for answering my question.

 

[Superninja]

@Skp Would you care to show your research?  It is the general consensus that smashing and bashing works, this consensus coming from examples like the one posted above.  The FAQ clearly gives a reason why it would work. 

On 10/31/2019 at 7:22 PM, Isotop said:

 

Fighting at the end of the combat phase and fighting immediately are clearly contradicting each other (the truth of one implicates the falsehood of the other and vice versa). Therefore the last ability applied (in this case Smashing and Bashing) takes precedence.

There are other abilities that are similar to this spell 'Soul Cage' and Smashing and Bashing gets around them too...so...

Just keep in mind, the Ironjawz player does need to activate a different unit first and actually fully wipe the enemy they are fighting to then activate the soul caged unit.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Superninja

[Superninja]

I also asked this in the ironjawz thread.  It was answered there by another person.

Posted Thursday at 04:37 PM

On 10/31/2019 at 4:32 PM, Superninja said:

@Malakree

"if successfully cast, pick an enemy unit within 12" of the caster that is visible.  Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot retreat.  In addition, until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot fight in the combat phase unless all other enemy units that are eligible to fight have already done so."

from faq: Page 55 – Soul CageChange the last sentence to:‘In addition, until your next hero phase, that unit fights at the end of the combat phase.’

so this is the correct version of spell now --"if successfully cast, pick an enemy unit within 12" of the caster that is visible.  Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot retreat.  In addition, until your next hero phase, that unit fights at the end of the combat phase"

Yes smashing and bashing overrides it. In both cases.

[Skp]

In my research the issue is soul cage makes the unit fight in the end of the combat phase. As such it is an illegal target for smashing and bashing. So it is not about the order of operations but the legality of the target. 

 

This means you can not select a unit affected by soul cage for smashing and bashing unless all other units on both sides have fished combat as that would put the phase to the end of the combat phase.