Mortal tzeentch

[Arkiham]

I've been trying to build a tzeentch list for a while now, concentrating on mortal, an I've realised that the Lord of tzeentch on disk is actually quite good.

His command ability to reroll all dice rolls matching his die by mortal tzeentch is, actually really strong if rolled 1-4 so a good chance.

He has a 2+ against a large amount of units. So is quite survivable.

I'd like to use the fatesworn warband as the synergy with the Lord would be great, but it's so hard to fit in.

Help would be appreciated 

Here's what I've constructed so far.

Fatesworn 120

Lord of tzeentch on disk 140

Tzeentch sorcerer lord 120

27 chaos warriors 540

2x10 chaos maraduers 120

2x1 chaos chariots 160

9 Chaos Knights 400

Chaos Warshrine 200

2 Gorebeast chariots.

Entire army gains rend and the warriors an knights gain a 6+ ward, an if within range of the warshrine a further 6+

Really lacking range damage an hard hitters, but it should endure quite a while.

[Digdug]

I too have been trying to build a Mortal Tzeentch list.  *Disclaimer* - I haven't played much Warhammer; in fact, I'm just getting into Age of Sigmar.

You went far heavier on sustainment than I intended too.  I am curious to see how well the additional ward saves on the Knights will work for you.  It's a shame you can't fit in a unit of Chosen for some damage.  

Unfortunately, my lack of experience inhibits me from critiquing too much.  Instead, here's my list and perhaps we can compare and foster discussion that way.

Here goes:

Fatesworn Warband - 120
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - 140
Chaos Lord on Manticore - 300
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore - 240
Ogroid Thaumaturge - 160
Chosen (5x) - 160
Chaos Warriors (27x; hand weapon and shield) - 540 (groups of 9 for Battleline)
Chaos Knights (5x) - 200
Chaos Gorebeast Chariot - 100
Chaos Familiars - 40

I intend to make the Lord on Daemonic Mount the general so that he can boost the Knights and Chariot (re-roll charges for the chariot to get an 8+ charge and set up 6x attacks with fists that hit/wound on 3+/3+, rend -1 and do 2 damage).  Additionally, I'd probably take the "Great Destroyer" command trait and a Chaos Talisman or Chaos Runeblade as an artefact.  The second artefact from the warscroll would be a Chaos Runeblade for the Lord on Manticore and would get an extra attack on the lance I would take.  

I've also thought about taking the Lord on Manticore as the general with the Spiteful Destroyer command trait, gaining +1 to wound for both of his weapons and his Manticore.

The Sorcerer Lord and Thaumaturge would both greatly benefit from the familiars and I think could really do some damage at range.

I've got some other ideas for moving units around and mixing in either a Lord of Chaos, a normal Chaos Sorcerer Lord, a Warshrine or perhaps the old Archaon model.  Most of these ideas require me to drop the Thaumaturge and Familiars though and changes it into more of a hack-n-slash army.

Comparatively, I feel like you'd defend a lot better and survive longer, but the list I've built would be more flexible and allow me to whittle you down before we started fighting.  I've looked at the Lord of Tzeentch on a disc but I feel like he's far to easy to kill with spells and other mortal wound producing units.

[Arkiham]

You can't deploy units smaller than their minimum until size, so those chaos warriors have to be 10+

Manticores are really hit or miss. They do amazing or they suck so hard so don't over rely on them.

But yeah your list has high maneuverability, mines incredibly slow. March up,  and stay there type army with the chariots an knights to rush up an holding things or go for flanking units,

Obviously my list will suffer against some armies others I feel it would be strong against.

[Digdug]

Quote

You can't deploy units smaller than their minimum until size, so those chaos warriors have to be 10+

You sure on that?  From the General's Handbook:

"Under Strength Units: Sometimes you find that you do not have enough models to field a unit at full strength; if this is the case, you must still pay the full cost of the unit."

When I read that, I interpret that to mean I can field 9 out of 10 but I pay the full cost of 180.

[Arkiham]

Yeah, as the units warscroll has a minimum  unit size of 10,

That rule comes into affect for units of say 19 or 23 etc

[Digdug]

Interesting.  I'm assuming that is in the rules.  Perhaps I overlooked it or am assuming something because I want it to be true.  Can you point me to somewhere in the rules/FAQs/General's Handbook where I can read that specific language?  Thanks.

[Arkiham]

it's on the chaos warriors war scroll. every units war scroll contains that units minimum deployable unit size. 

 

in the matched play section the unit sizes are also stated to their minimum size, and you pay in those intervals, so 10= 180 20=360 18= 360 11=360 etc

[Digdug]

Acknowledged.  Back to the drawing board.  Thanks.

[anti]

Hang on, you can still field fewer than the multiple for each unit. So if you want to field 17 warriors you can, but you still have to pay for 20 (multiple of 10, if the minimum size is 10). I think this is in the FAQ or in the Generals Handbook. I had the same issue and looked this up yesterday. 

[anti]

Found it, Generals Handbook page 107. 

[Stauderpower]

You can actually field less than the minimum, the example given in the handbook is about having 3 liberators instead of the minimum 5. 

[nelsonus]

With two kits guaranteed for future release, tzaangors and acolytes, mortal tzeentch is a great place to start building a force I think. 

[Digdug]

@Stauderpower That was the example I was referring to when I built my list.  If I am wrong, I can still field them as a block of 10 without issue.  I was hoping though to make the sacrifice and only field them as 9 for the 6+ ward save.  However, the example on page 107 of the General's Handbook is the only one I could find.

[Arkiham]

but the intervals in which you buy them are in 5's. but if you only have 8 you still have to pay for 10 is what theyre saying. 

not that you can field understrength units below the minimum unit size. 

[anti]

9 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

but the intervals in which you buy them are in 5's. but if you only have 8 you still have to pay for 10 is what theyre saying. 

not that you can field understrength units below the minimum unit size. 

The example in the Generals Handbook uses 3 Liberators when the minimum size is 5 and still calls this a unit. So I say go right ahead.

 

Further discussions regarding this matter (for and against) is going on in this thread: http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/2231-fielding-units-minimum-sizes/

 

[Nico]

I wouldn't use mortal Tzeentch until they get new models.

The formation was competitive before the rule of one.

The Disklord's Command ability isn't that great tbh.

[Maddok]

I was playing a mix of mortal and demonic tzeentch for a while.

If you're going pure mortals, you need to bend things a bit to make it work.

The warshrine is an absolute must. 20 tzeentch warriors with a warshrine and mystic shield move for no one. 3+ re-rollable save, 5+ vs mortal, ignore all wounds on 6's....

I'd also get a mutalith vortex beast in there. They're decent in combat and their ability is great. If you go that route, make sure to get the tzeentch sorcerer lord to start spamming spawn. Another hero that is a MUST is the gaunt summoner on foot. His spell that does a mortal wound to every model in the unit on a 4+ is savage vs any unit of 1 wound models. I'm salivating over a unit of 30 executioners suddenly getting cut in half and then disappearing to battle shock from ONE spell.  The Ogroid Thurmatage isn't bad either, be sure to check him out

Are you against summoning demons? If not, I'd hop on summoning flamers...

If you won't summon, you NEED a hellcannon to help you deal with isolated threats/to apply early pressure. I also recommend a unit of chosen. Add Sayl the faithless and fly them across the table for max mayhem.

Have fun!

[Nico]

All good points in post above.

Except this one:

Quote

also get a mutalith vortex beast in there. They're decent in combat and their ability is great. If you go that route, make sure to get the tzeentch sorcerer lord to start spamming spawn.

It has terrible rend. It has a mediocre save. The special rule is meh. I used one at a tournament and saw a Treeman crush it.

Get a War Mammoth or a Chimera if you must (or better yet just don't play monsters as Chaos - worst monsters of all 4 Grand Alliances).

[Arkiham]

sold my hellcannon as its legacy, an i only play stuff in the GA books/ new releases.

for 140 points he is decent, for any units in an 18" bubble of him they re-roll the dice roll, that could be so helpful. its everything, charges, saves, to hit, to wound, ward saves etc etc. 

what other tzeentch lord would you stick in his place? slaves to darkness lords are meh, 

an the theme is mortal tzeentch, i did consider daemons/monsters but then i wouldn't be able to fit in the fatesworn warband in, and then why even bother going tzeentch ? there's a huge lack of synergy with tzeentch an if you aren't going whole hog you may as well just mix it all an take the chaos sorcerer lord an run bloodbound. 

[Digdug]

For the list you initially proposed, what do you think of the Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount?  He's the same point cost and his command ability would be ok in your army.  He's about as durable, if not slightly more so versus mortal wounds, and has the reroll to saves.  Further, he's a better fighter with his Cursed Warhammer and he has the remote chance of healing.  Comparatively, I would argue the Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount is a shade better given the unpredictability of the Tzeentch Lord's command ability.  Also, you mentioned this ability was an 18" bubble, but when I read the warscroll it only says 9" bubble..

[Arkiham]

The only bad roll for the disk lord is a 6. so 1/6 chance. thats battleshock worthy only. 

5 is also not the nicest but still handy as you can re-roll it for ward saves, battleshock few other things.

2-4 is perfect, that's armour saves, to wound, to hit, ward saves, spells, charge rolls, ward saves, spells, runs, unpredictable destruction. so helpful as not many units in the list re-roll failed what ever its only 1's

1 handy as same above, an for the units who don't get re-roll 1's for blah.

it's unreliable, but far from bad.

 

Daemonic lord is nice & reroll failed saves roll is nice, but with rend he'll be at 5+/6 the disk lord suffering rend ( other than a few things ) will be a 3+4+ .

 

The disk lord can also have a good chance at assassinating solo heros, 16" move standard. that's an avg threat distance of 23"

i might swap out the chariots for the daemonic lord of tzeentch though, just so the allegiance thing works nice with the mobile units as it has to be within range of a hero, so there's an 16" bubble 1/3 chance for +1 to hit.  

[Nico]

However, the starting point is that rerolls are generally worse than +1 modifiers, e.g. +1 to hit on things that trigger on 6s (Retributors plus Lord Celestant for example). Rerolling all misses is somewhere in between (as it can increase a 50% chance to hit to 75%).

A "5" is still virtually useless (another shot at rolling a 6+ ward save is weak. A "4" will not help much with hit or wound rolls, maybe some saves.

[Arkiham]

but then who do i use the +1 to hit on ? a lone chariot? there's a 1/3 chance of having +1 to hit from the unpredictable destruction when combined with the item. so a good chance the knights will be hitting on a 2+ anyway. 

until new releases there isnt much on offer

 

[Maddok]

@Nico I don't agree with you there. For 220 points its a pretty good value. Its not a stonehorn in combat, but neither are bloodthirsters...  The fact it heals its self is quite handy, plus its also quite fluffy in a Tzeentch list.

 

On Chimeras - their ranged attack is nice if you can keep them from getting wounded, but I've never been impressed with them in combat, and theyre quite fragile.

 

I agree with you on War mamoths but am still torn about whether or not they're worth 360 points. In the tournament that I took a pair of them I was never blown away by their damage output. They're nice for sure, but I'm not sure they're 360 points nice. I'm also not sure how many people have a war mamoth or two kicking around 

[Wundlesprut]

13 hours ago, nelsonus said:

With two kits guaranteed for future release, tzaangors and acolytes, mortal tzeentch is a great place to start building a force I think. 

Certainly what I'm looking forward to, but also a bit of Slaanesh, however I guess that God will feature more heavily in some kind of campaign.

But bring on the arcanists I say.