Alternative "9th Ed" WHFB lore

[EccentricCircle]

Yeah, actually, it had never really occurred to me, but the Disciples of Tzeentch do look kind of Aztec. There's potential for some awesome mesoamerican conversions there if you mixed and matched lizardman equipment.

They could definitely do with a wider range of beastmen. The goatheaded ones fit well with the European flavour of the Old World, but in AoS or a more global warhammer campaign the sky is really the limit.

[Cèsar de Quart]

12 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

Yeah, actually, it had never really occurred to me, but the Disciples of Tzeentch do look kind of Aztec. There's potential for some awesome mesoamerican conversions there if you mixed and matched lizardman equipment.

They could definitely do with a wider range of beastmen. The goatheaded ones fit well with the European flavour of the Old World, but in AoS or a more global warhammer campaign the sky is really the limit.

That's right, they do. A good way to delve into the possibilities of the setting is to see what has GW published and try to make it fit.

For example, I was thinking about Albion. I imagined it like this:

The Ogham stones absorb Chaotic energy, making the Vortex more stable. Since the world is now saturated with magic and Chaos energies have receded, the Ogham stones don't absorb like they used to. Over 40 years, the mists of Albion lift, the land becomes fertile again and the bogs and thorny wilderness and feral animals become tamer. 

1- The druids/truthsayers seek answers around the world and their presence is noted by the Old World powers, who are starting to get their stuff together again, especially Bretonnia.

2- The King of Bretonnia wants to conquer Albion but the Fey Enchantress convinces him not to, knowing how important Albion is.

3- Norscans fleeing from the advancing glaciers of the Long Winter launch an invasion. The woads can't fight back and pseudo-Boudicca calls the Fey Enchantress for help. The King of Bretonnia is happy to oblige, but the was will be long and very, very costly. Let's say, most of the flower of Bretonnia, a lot of money and several of the king's children and body parts. Once the norse are out, he declares Albion under his protection, and proceeds to carve it up in chunks to give his avid nobles.

4- The woads, of course, resist and a guerrilla war ensues, one that culminates in the moment where pseudo-Boudicca enacts a ritual by which the Ogham stones release much of the energy they stored, creating what is essentially a small warp gate. Daemons pour out and the Bretonnian armies are decimated, but corruption spreads and the land dies again, this time much faster. The druids realise how dangerous this is, and invoke the Winds of Life to fight the tide of corruption, in exchange for their lives. This gives life to the forests, turning them into -insert Irish mythological tree creature here-, essentially Sylvaneth.

5- The druids are dead, or most of them are, anyway. The woads now are mostly free of Bretonnian influence, although they're still officially under the King's protection, and their land is healing again. The remaining leaders decide that the energy from the Ogham stones is dangerous, but also recognise their power, and conclude that they need to build more scattered around the world, to protect the world in the next storm. The gentle wood giants help them, sensing the good in their intentions.

6- All good things come to an end, and sooner or later some Albians (Albionese? Albions? Albi? Woads?) who have been toying with the latest magical steam engines, realise that energy can be extracted from the Ogham circles. It is, of course, Chaos energy, but it's been 300 years. What do they know? Thus, Albion starts their own industrial revoltion, powered by the Stone Circles and reach for an Empire where the sun never sets. 

Essentially, it's 1820's Britain, with Celtic names, tartan clothing, red-headed, woad-themed and very, very oblivious to how much of a ticking bomb their London lies over. 

Some woads still resist the industrial revolution secluded in their own traditions, taking care of the fewer and fewer tree herds that remain.

++ So, we've got an army that could have the rules of an Empire army and the appearance of maybe English Civil war with tartans and ogham-punk (I never thought this could be a thing), and another one that's essentially Sylvaneth with human followers, let's say the rules of Empire archers and the like. Probably with some Kharadron ships and flying artifacts thrown in.

 

[Orsino]

I'm not familiar enough with end times lore to contribute but may I say this thread is great and there are some really interesting ideas.

I particularly like the take on Albion and the idea of an Everchosen Skaven. 

[VBS]

Random thoughts, but when AoS got out I thought about 2 alternatives for the Old World that I feel like writting down.

1 - WHFB is still its own thing and the ET never happened (Retcon, GW's favorite thing! ) Fear not stale and boring stories because the Old Wolrd had a load of things still to explore (unlike many people erroneously claimed). All the East was mostly untouched, from Cathai to Ind or the Darklands (Chaos Dwarves!). Also the South Lands (more belligerent Skinks) or Araby. All those High Elf advance posts/colonies or a more fleshed out northern lands with barbarian tribes (further development of the "non-chaotic" Chaos and relation with civilization would have been cool!). Border Princes stuff, with a proper Mercenary release too. Or Naggaroth was basically empty outside the DE cities. Or push further the Dark Shadows/Albion stuff! Or "Antarctica" being a demonland, but no other info given? (as per the 6th ed. HE book map). Or how about delving into all those "ancient civilizations" that were often mentioned (like when during Malekith's quest to recover magic items and such things....).

It's not like the possibilities were lacking and had to remain stale with the endless Empire vs. Archaon struggle.... Also, one of the coolest things were those WD series about old conflicts (Von C. Wars or the HE vs. Dwarves war of old...). Many of these conflicts could be explored, like the Sky Titans War with the Ogres and the likes.

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2 -  If keeping the ET fluff but changing the end to preserve the Old World setting, albeit altered... The Incarnates close the rift, but the winds of magic roam free and raging over the world. This completely changes all the landscapes, which basically become a "realm of chaos". But not a hellish/infernal type of realm like the Dark Gods, because magic can be manipulated and molded into whatever those that control it want to.

Enter the new world order. The Incarnates are each at the head of a faction, with certain alliances such as a tandem Sigmar/Gelt in the Empire (SCE are created and the destroyed empire is fashioned into a low-key Azyr). The Malekith, Alarielle, Tyrion, Teclis form a massive elf alliance that still has many tentions and stuff going on. Possible to develop fluff concerning this, as resentment or external influence should be common in the form of Slaanesh (he/she got chained here too), Morathi or Caledor being brought back, etc.... Ungrim, Grimgor, Caradryan or whatever other Incarnate are still around (if they died or not in the ET can be changed of course, and give the Wind to some other notable character).

With their new god-like powers or full blown divinity to rival with the Dark Gods, the Incarnates fashion the land to resermble their apprearance. Much like in the Mortal Realms, Loren would still be very similar (like Ghyran), the Eastern Steppes/Darklands or whatever become savage x100 (like Ghur), Tyrion/Teclis recreate the Tower of Hoet but more massive (like Hysh), Nagash makes Uber-Sylvania (like Shyish). Or if Ungrim survived, some sort of hellish pit-crater realm in the abandoned dwarven halls with lava and all the Fyreslayers blingbling (like Aqshy). You get the idea, some sort of more over the top Old World that mirrors what was later done in the Mortal Realms. As the Incarnates "manage" their respective Wind of Magic and magic being saturated due to Ulthuan/Lustria/Poles collapsing, I can see this being very plausible.

All factions still endure in different forms. Dwarves being nomads that got expelled from their holds. They move on to conquer the skies (hello KO). Complementary to the 4-Elf alliance, the sinking of Ulthuan hides secrets, as the souls of the drowned elves are reborn into a more sinister elven race, heirs to Nagarythe and all so full of hatred (Deepkin, not happy to have been left behind, still thinking in "civil war" terms and creating "Atlantis" in the sunken Ulthuan, etc....). Lizardmen still around too, orbiting in space in their Spacehulk-Temples and teleporting when required below, desperate to still instaure or at least influencing a bit the original Old Ones plan. Destruction factions are pretty much the same (they didn't evolve much, but you wouldn't expect otherwise right? ).

The blurring between the Chaos territory and the rest (reality) would also give the occasion to push the struggle between factions on an equal level. The forces of Order can now assault the Realms of Chaos, and the Dark Gods no longer have that dominant "untouchable" status. Back and forth fights and more over the top situations all over the place.

In a way this wouldn't be to different from the AoS setting as a whole, yet in a more "micro" approach. Bringing the old and the new together, and like that everyone is happy (it's all about that....). But all the room for new development too. Both options would have been awesome (my 2 cents, of course).

[Cèsar de Quart]

19 hours ago, VBS said:

Random thoughts, but when AoS got out I thought about 2 alternatives for the Old World that I feel like writting down.

1 - WHFB is still its own thing and the ET never happened (Retcon, GW's favorite thing! ) Fear not stale and boring stories because the Old Wolrd had a load of things still to explore (unlike many people erroneously claimed). All the East was mostly untouched, from Cathai to Ind or the Darklands (Chaos Dwarves!). Also the South Lands (more belligerent Skinks) or Araby. All those High Elf advance posts/colonies or a more fleshed out northern lands with barbarian tribes (further development of the "non-chaotic" Chaos and relation with civilization would have been cool!). Border Princes stuff, with a proper Mercenary release too. Or Naggaroth was basically empty outside the DE cities. Or push further the Dark Shadows/Albion stuff! Or "Antarctica" being a demonland, but no other info given? (as per the 6th ed. HE book map). Or how about delving into all those "ancient civilizations" that were often mentioned (like when during Malekith's quest to recover magic items and such things....).

It's not like the possibilities were lacking and had to remain stale with the endless Empire vs. Archaon struggle.... Also, one of the coolest things were those WD series about old conflicts (Von C. Wars or the HE vs. Dwarves war of old...). Many of these conflicts could be explored, like the Sky Titans War with the Ogres and the likes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 -  If keeping the ET fluff but changing the end to preserve the Old World setting, albeit altered... The Incarnates close the rift, but the winds of magic roam free and raging over the world. This completely changes all the landscapes, which basically become a "realm of chaos". But not a hellish/infernal type of realm like the Dark Gods, because magic can be manipulated and molded into whatever those that control it want to.

Enter the new world order. The Incarnates are each at the head of a faction, with certain alliances such as a tandem Sigmar/Gelt in the Empire (SCE are created and the destroyed empire is fashioned into a low-key Azyr). The Malekith, Alarielle, Tyrion, Teclis form a massive elf alliance that still has many tentions and stuff going on. Possible to develop fluff concerning this, as resentment or external influence should be common in the form of Slaanesh (he/she got chained here too), Morathi or Caledor being brought back, etc.... Ungrim, Grimgor, Caradryan or whatever other Incarnate are still around (if they died or not in the ET can be changed of course, and give the Wind to some other notable character).

With their new god-like powers or full blown divinity to rival with the Dark Gods, the Incarnates fashion the land to resermble their apprearance. Much like in the Mortal Realms, Loren would still be very similar (like Ghyran), the Eastern Steppes/Darklands or whatever become savage x100 (like Ghur), Tyrion/Teclis recreate the Tower of Hoet but more massive (like Hysh), Nagash makes Uber-Sylvania (like Shyish). Or if Ungrim survived, some sort of hellish pit-crater realm in the abandoned dwarven halls with lava and all the Fyreslayers blingbling (like Aqshy). You get the idea, some sort of more over the top Old World that mirrors what was later done in the Mortal Realms. As the Incarnates "manage" their respective Wind of Magic and magic being saturated due to Ulthuan/Lustria/Poles collapsing, I can see this being very plausible.

All factions still endure in different forms. Dwarves being nomads that got expelled from their holds. They move on to conquer the skies (hello KO). Complementary to the 4-Elf alliance, the sinking of Ulthuan hides secrets, as the souls of the drowned elves are reborn into a more sinister elven race, heirs to Nagarythe and all so full of hatred (Deepkin, not happy to have been left behind, still thinking in "civil war" terms and creating "Atlantis" in the sunken Ulthuan, etc....). Lizardmen still around too, orbiting in space in their Spacehulk-Temples and teleporting when required below, desperate to still instaure or at least influencing a bit the original Old Ones plan. Destruction factions are pretty much the same (they didn't evolve much, but you wouldn't expect otherwise right? ).

The blurring between the Chaos territory and the rest (reality) would also give the occasion to push the struggle between factions on an equal level. The forces of Order can now assault the Realms of Chaos, and the Dark Gods no longer have that dominant "untouchable" status. Back and forth fights and more over the top situations all over the place.

In a way this wouldn't be to different from the AoS setting as a whole, yet in a more "micro" approach. Bringing the old and the new together, and like that everyone is happy (it's all about that....). But all the room for new development too. Both options would have been awesome (my 2 cents, of course).

It is a more high fantasy concept than what the Old World was. I try to keep the low-key fantasy of the setting (avoid having gods walking and leading mortals), but yours is just a valid take as any on the what-if future of the WHFB setting.

I like that Teclis and Tyrion manage their domain over Hyish to rebuild the Tower of Hoeth. Nice concept.

The Darklands are an especially interesting place if you can shake them up a bit. Maybe even changing their name for Dawnlands (since they lie at the direction of the sunrise) and the Chaos Dwarves' large empire was broken by the Alexander from Ind. But firsts things first, the cool thing would be to mirror the incredible wealth of culture from our real Central Asia, take the most colorful themes and historical concepts and shake and mix them into something interesting. What are these themes or ideas?

Trade routes, nomads, competition between empires for trade and resources, stubborn isolated peoples who resist no matter what, the long-lasting influence of conquerors like Genghis, Tamerlane and Alexander, the vast steppes, the hard mountains, the endless fields of wheat, the mixture of cultures and languages, and a general sense of its own laws and order. In the vast steppes of Central Asia, usually colonial empires were at peace even when at war formally. It's like a reverse of the "no peace beyond the line" idea.

Also, the Darklands have been a Mordor-placeholder for decades, never having recieved more development than "it's cloudy and gross because of the Chaos Dwarves". Well, let's break the Chaos Dwarves. With Alexander the Great. Aren't the Chaos Dwarves Babylonian-looking?

You have potential for:

- The aforementioned Indian Alexander (let's call him Kandagupta) can conquer a vast swathe of the Darklands, break the power of the Chaos Dwarves and enter the Badlands, whereby his soldier refuse to continue any further into greenskin territory (or maybe even Nehekhara) and they turn back. The army divides, and the half led by Kandagupta vanishes never to be seen again (Nagash may have wanted to take him for himself? After all, Alcadizaar was also modelled on Alexander, as well as  Ramesses II). The Indian generals carve up the kingdom and become diadochi, the successor realms, which may fall one by one until there's just one remaining. But the Indian population Kandagupta brought with him still remain, in cities named after the Conqueror.

- Kobold Khan's greenskin hordes of Ghur-infused savages roaming the northern Darklands, a vast steppe littered with the industrial ruins of the Chaos Dwarves. The broken Gates of Zharr, the humbled temples and towers, the fallen chimneys, the hellish ever-burning fires of forgotten malign industry... now pastures for giant beasts, walking hills and packs of hybrids of all kinds.

- One resurgent bastion of Chaos Dwarves led by the Messiah, the Son of Fire (essentially a Chaos Dwarf incarnate who is kinda like the Firelord from Avatar).

- Gospodar push to colonise Zorn Uzkul, in direct opposition to the Messiah's spreading influence and growing technological power.

- Red grass meadows where the Plain of Bones used to be, now a battleground for expansion between the several land and trade domains present in the area. Aqshy makes the wildlife there agressive and generally firery-colored, as well as fire resistent (redwoods are now a literal thing).

- Vicious competition for control over the spice, ivory and trade routes to the Far East. Some Ogre clans may control the caravan passes directly, while trade chartered companies may want to build outposts (or even patrol them using cogforts), nomads and hobgoblins want to raid them...

- Arkhan or Nagash may want to expand the Realm of Death, which is centered around Nagashizzar, into the now rich Darklands. With Nagash being disempowered, incapacitated or outright condemned to serve as the god of the dead (for real, that would be a nice twist), the Tomb Kings are free to pursue their own agendas again, but with Settra broken, there's room for a new Ramesses to unify the dead cities. I think that we can have a triple party with Apophas, Khalida and King Phar. Besides, if Ghyran has made the River Mortis live again, that would mean renewed interest in reaching for Nehekhara.

Etc. Further ideas? Slave rebellions? Imaginative Ogre holdings? Curious beastmen civilization? Chaos Dwarves turned not Chaotic?