I Hate My Kharadrons

[Freejack02]

3 hours ago, Vextol said:

The setup above is how the game starts usually.  He's not moving into that position, he starts in that position.

I know that example you drew up isn't to scale, but I assumed the lines to either side of center were the 12" deployment lines (cannot start any models closer than 12" to the center line in this scenario). If it's not, then what are those lines?

 

3 hours ago, Vextol said:

The relictor is typically 32 inches or so away from my territory and he almost always gets placed last.  How are you guys getting in range when you talk about killing him early?

Don't try it - the Relictor isn't really a threat, he enables threats. He's too far back to try and take out early, just accept he's going to attempt to LR the Protectors in... because there's really no way to realistically take him out with that setup. It would be great if you could, as that would basically leave the Protectors stranded in the back most of the game, but I don't really see an effective way of doing it. 

 

3 hours ago, Vextol said:

As for killing the judicators, again, I can't get in range.  They are usually 15 inches off center, meaning I'm looking at a 27 inch gap for my closest unit.  How is everyone moving that unit of 40 arkanauts?

When I face KO, the majority are loaded onto 1-2 ships (Iron, Iron/Frig, or Frig/Frig) and *I think* a hero-phase move from something. Then a 3" disembark, then normal movement/shooting. It's likely that was either a battalion or special skyport ability, so that's probably not realistic to expect from every army. However, if you start units embarked on a ship which is directly on your deployment line, you can disembark for free and get 3" closer. That puts you 9" away from either center objective and 24" from the Judicators. Move 4", you are within cap range of the point and 20" from the enemy - well within range to shoot the Khemist buffed skyhooks at them.

 

 

3 hours ago, Vextol said:

And for the other option of moving to the center (12 inches away) and holding, don't you need big units to hold?  Same question. How are you getting there turn 1?

Maybe this is part of the issue - you don't need large units to hold. All you need is to have more models within 6" of the objective marker than the enemy does. Now there's a special provision for this scenario that allows a unit of 20+ models to automatically take priority and capture against any number of enemy models (provided there is not an enemy unit of 20+). It's sort of confusing, but really just comes down to getting more models within 6" of the point than your opponent - pure SCE will not likely have a 20+ unit of anything. This should be trivial on the first turn, as you only need to move up 6", and the models do not need to stay in range to retain control of the point in later turns. This means if you cap them early, he is forced to come and take them back - he can't just turtle with his shooters all game while sitting on his point. 

 

It's a tough matchup (I rarely lose to KO while playing SCE) but you should be able to just play the scenario well and at least have a shot at winning. 

[Vextol]

9 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I know that example you drew up isn't to scale, but I assumed the lines to either side of center were the 12" deployment lines (cannot start any models closer than 12" to the center line in this scenario). If it's not, then what are those lines?

 

Sorry-yes, bad drawing and very not to scale.  I was trying to quickly remember the exact setup and he was 12 inches from deployment plus a little to avoid getting shot.  Everything should be backed up a little.

[Vextol]

 

12 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

When I face KO, the majority are loaded onto 1-2 ships (Iron, Iron/Frig, or Frig/Frig) and *I think* a hero-phase move from something. Then a 3" disembark, then normal movement/shooting. It's likely that was either a battalion or special skyport ability, so that's probably not realistic to expect from every army. However, if you start units embarked on a ship which is directly on your deployment line, you can disembark for free and get 3" closer. That puts you 9" away from either center objective and 24" from the Judicators. Move 4", you are within cap range of the point and 20" from the enemy - well within range to shoot the Khemist buffed skyhooks at them.

Biggest unit you can load up is 25 and that makes your ship really slow (so realistically 20).  I never thought about the free 3 inches turn one.  That would help guarantee getting in range to shoot turn 1.  I'll try that, but unfortunately I can't get more than 20/30/40 (but it would take 900 points of ships) within range using that trick because I can't fit 40 guys on a boat.

[Freejack02]

24 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Biggest unit you can load up is 25 and that makes your ship really slow (so realistically 20)

That's true, but your biggest unit threat is your 20 Company with 6 skyhooks. That's 12 after Khemist buff, shooting twice with the Urbaz trait. 24 shots at 4/3/-2/D3 means 16 expected damage against 3+ saves - 10.7 wounds (so 5 dead). Couple that with another one of your 10 companies shooting and that can likely wipe out a unit of 10 Judicators with battleshock. Hitting the 12 wound mark will mean 6 dead, which means they lose a straight D6 more to shock. If you don't want to gamble on shock, the Ironclad cannon given the 2nd Khemist buff can try to pile it on as well. 2 shots at 4(rr1)/2/-2/D6 means 2.3 damage after saves, and one threat should be toast. 

Another strategy that I forgot about was taking those damn Gimlet Lenses for artefacts, which really throws a monkey wrench into his plans. It would negate all save modifiers, which means no Staunch, no Lantern, no Mirrorshield. You could try a Zilfin alpha-strike list with those on Endrinmasters/Admirals and try to take out the Castellants/Relictor from behind in one swoop. Not sure how that one would play out though - but you would surely distract him away from the central objectives for 1/2 turns. 

[Vextol]

24 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

That's true, but your biggest unit threat is your 20 Company with 6 skyhooks. That's 12 after Khemist buff, shooting twice with the Urbaz trait. 24 shots at 4/3/-2/D3 means 16 expected damage against 3+ saves - 10.7 wounds (so 5 dead). Couple that with another one of your 10 companies shooting and that can likely wipe out a unit of 10 Judicators with battleshock. Hitting the 12 wound mark will mean 6 dead, which means they lose a straight D6 more to shock. If you don't want to gamble on shock, the Ironclad cannon given the 2nd Khemist buff can try to pile it on as well. 2 shots at 4(rr1)/2/-2/D6 means 2.3 damage after saves, and one threat should be toast. 

Another strategy that I forgot about was taking those damn Gimlet Lenses for artefacts, which really throws a monkey wrench into his plans. It would negate all save modifiers, which means no Staunch, no Lantern, no Mirrorshield. You could try a Zilfin alpha-strike list with those on Endrinmasters/Admirals and try to take out the Castellants/Relictor from behind in one swoop. Not sure how that one would play out though - but you would surely distract him away from the central objectives for 1/2 turns. 

Unfortunately the khemist cannot buff the ships.

I don't see how the alpha striking would work with Zilfin.  Inevitably you are still going to need that 9 inch charge and only one of your guys can benefit from the lens.  I see how it would help get endriggers in battle but it seems so risky to drop your admiral and need that 9 inch charge, right into the line of protectors.  I think the protector wall is designed to stop exactly this strategy from happening , at least first turn.

I like the idea of firing off all those shots with Urbaz but don't you need to be 3" away to activate it?  I really need to kill off one of these Judicator units before they can 2+ so I don't know if getting a free shot at 3" will help. 

It may be bad wording in the book.  "One of your units within 3" of an enemy can pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase, or shoot as if it were the shooting phase."  Yet another extremely ambiguous statement.   Does this mean attack if within 3" and shoot however you want or pick whether you attack or shoot if within 3?  The way it's written seems to indicate that you have to be 3" away to use the ability.  First turn that wouldn't help very much and first turn is definitely where I need to lay the hurt.

 

[Freejack02]

17 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Unfortunately the khemist cannot buff the ships.

Right you are - he'll just have to buff another 10 Company unit. I think I might drop an Endrinmaster and bump one of the Companies up to 20. 

 

18 minutes ago, Vextol said:

It may be bad wording in the book.  "One of your units within 3" of an enemy can pile in and attack as if it were the combat phase, or shoot as if it were the shooting phase."

I took that to mean "you have to be within 3" to pile in, or you can shoot from anywhere within legal range". Normally the 3" qualifier is put there to stop out-of-combat shenanigans, but I guess I'm not 100% certain that's the case with this. I know Urbaz shooting lists are a thing, and I don't imagine they would even work if this were not the case. 

[Vextol]

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

I took that to mean "you have to be within 3" to pile in, or you can shoot from anywhere within legal range". Normally the 3" qualifier is put there to stop out-of-combat shenanigans, but I guess I'm not 100% certain that's the case with this. I know Urbaz shooting lists are a thing, and I don't imagine they would even work if this were not the case. 

I sure hope so.  I agree-if it's not the case that particular skyport is really lame.

[Naflem]

12 hours ago, Vextol said:

 

Biggest unit you can load up is 25 and that makes your ship really slow (so realistically 20).  I never thought about the free 3 inches turn one.  That would help guarantee getting in range to shoot turn 1.  I'll try that, but unfortunately I can't get more than 20/30/40 (but it would take 900 points of ships) within range using that trick because I can't fit 40 guys on a boat.

technically if you reaaaaally juice the bases it can be a free 3.9 inches for company and 4.3 for thunderers, wardens, heroes, etc (since only the barest sliver of the models base must be in the 3 inch bubble around the ship)

[stratigo]

on a zilfan iron clad your company has a 38 inch threat range (Well 40 inches, but you usually start overburdenned). That's 12 skyhooks hitting almost anything, and your general uses fleet master to redeploy the ship to where it need to be. Not only that, but you are almost certainly getting a first turn charge with your riggers, which should be in the face of those jduicators turn 1 and killing them all

[Zetsu20]

khemist's buff doesn't stack to the same weapon but i still use it to buff all of my sky warden drill cannon and Company light skyhook.

Urbaz was pretty cool for me.