Eshin Clawpack Question

[Deathmaster Snikch]

Hi, 

Just a dispute I've had about the Eshin clawpack formation with a friend. The formation is a Skaven Assassin, 3 units of Nightrunners and a unit of Gutter Runners 

The formation lets you reroll failed to wound if you outnumber and either run and shoot or run and charge instead. The nightrunners and gutterrunners can already run and shoot from their warscrolls (The Assassin can't which is why run and shoot is an option). Therefore can I run, shoot and charge with nightrunners and gutter runners as they'll be shooting because of their warscrolls but charging because of their formation 

Any help appreciated. I'm arguing that you can do both as you're running and shooting as a result of the warscroll not the formation, he's arguing the word instead means I can't do both. My counter argument is im gaining the ability to run and charge instead of run and shoot because the nightrunners and gutter runners already have it, the assassin however would have to pick one or the other 

 

thanks in advance 

[rokapoke]

At first read through, I would've thought you could do both. However, based on the "or" in the formation's Sprint and Strike ability, I'd say you're restricted to just one or the other. Of course, if it's not a tournament talk with your opponent - I'd allow it as long as the game is still fun. 

[Deathmaster Snikch]

28 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

At first read through, I would've thought you could do both. However, based on the "or" in the formation's Sprint and Strike ability, I'd say you're restricted to just one or the other. Of course, if it's not a tournament talk with your opponent - I'd allow it as long as the game is still fun. 

It's basically a narrative army, I wouldn't consider using it in a tournament 

I understand the argument against but even with it I don't serie dominating the tournament scene anytime soon! 

[Flood]

Although i would not pretend I know for sure what im about to say is correct, I would argue you can run, shoot, and charge. Here is my reasoning. 

These are listed as abilities that the unit is using. We choose a unit, use 1 ability and deplete its ruleset, then we move on to it's next ability. Let's choose the night runners. It uses the ability "Sprint and strike," giving us the option to do 1 of 2 things. Our choice is to run and charge. Ability complete. Moving to their next ability, we declare we will use "running death," which goes off automatically allowing us to run and shoot. Two separate abilities were declared and activated and no rules were broken the sequence. 

[Deathmaster Snikch]

30 minutes ago, Flood said:

Although i would not pretend I know for sure what im about to say is correct, I would argue you can run, shoot, and charge. Here is my reasoning. 

These are listed as abilities that the unit is using. We choose a unit, use 1 ability and deplete its ruleset, then we move on to it's next ability. Let's choose the night runners. It uses the ability "Sprint and strike," giving us the option to do 1 of 2 things. Our choice is to run and charge. Ability complete. Moving to their next ability, we declare we will use "running death," which goes off automatically allowing us to run and shoot. Two separate abilities were declared and activated and no rules were broken the sequence. 

That's how I interpret it too 

It's not likely to get FAQ'd though because it's such an unusual army. GW needs to give Ninja's some love. I'd love a clan Eshin battletome or even just allegiance abilities in the next book. One can dream. Hoping shadespire might result in a few units or characters for them 

[Kugane]

Sprint & Strike is a different ability than Running Death. So I would say you can use both, but you may have to specify specifically that you run & shoot because of Running Death and charge because of Sprint & Strike.

[Deathmaster Snikch]

On 03/07/2017 at 2:03 AM, Kugane said:

Sprint & Strike is a different ability than Running Death. So I would say you can use both, but you may have to specify specifically that you run & shoot because of Running Death and charge because of Sprint & Strike.

Talking to my group that seems to be the consensus 

 

I wanna take it to a tournament but guess will have to consult the TO about it 

[Kugane]

5 hours ago, Deathmaster Snikch said:

Talking to my group that seems to be the consensus 

 

I wanna take it to a tournament but guess will have to consult the TO about it 

Awesome! Tbh Eshin needs all the little buffs it can get to stand a chance to win! So I hope they let you play it like this :).

[Deathmaster Snikch]

The one person amongst my gaming group that led to me posting this question is a TO at a tournament I wanted to bring this too so unfortunately that's not the case. What's disappointing is he also seemed to think it would be too powerful which I can't say I agree with or more people would be using it. If I could submit it to the rules team I would as I'm 100% certain I've interpreted it the right way 

[Deathmaster Snikch]

1 hour ago, Kugane said:

Awesome! Tbh Eshin needs all the little buffs it can get to stand a chance to win! So I hope they let you play it like this :).

The one person amongst my gaming group that led to me posting this question is a TO at a tournament I wanted to bring this too so unfortunately that's not the case. What's disappointing is he also seemed to think it would be too powerful which I can't say I agree with or more people would be using it. If I could submit it to the rules team I would as I'm 100% certain I've interpreted it the right way 

[Jpdorrian]

I don't think it's possible, more to the point I don't run it that way. The few times I've used it it's been either or for me. My reasoning being you run in the movement phase and I declare what ability I do in the hero phase. It's the way our local club and TO likes everyone to play. I agree that although the formation isn't great the ability to move run shoot and charge in the one round with most of the formation is frightening.

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[Jpdorrian]

Sorry bit about TO hasn't been a ruling I'm aware of. It's to do with gaming etiquette, talking through and discussing, rolls modifiers and the likes.

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[Deathmaster Snikch]

3 minutes ago, Jpdorrian said:

I don't think it's possible, more to the point I don't run it that way. The few times I've used it it's been either or for me. My reasoning being you run in the movement phase and I declare what ability I do in the hero phase. It's the way our local club and TO likes everyone to play. I agree that although the formation isn't great the ability to move run shoot and charge in the one round with most of the formation is frightening.

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That's the issue is it's non definitive yet also not likely to get FAQ'd 

I personally don't agree. You're using running Death to run and shoot which is a warscroll ability and using sprint and strike to charge. They're still frail but hey ho. Maybe one day it'll be defined. Hopefully some Eshin love comes our way in GHB2!

[Jpdorrian]

Agree non definitive, you just need to get agreement with your local gaming group. Since no one in my group has run it that way I can't say for sure how it would be ruled at a local event. I tend to air on the side of caution, if something looks to good to be true it's usually is wrong or will be FaQed

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[Deathmaster Snikch]

On 05/07/2017 at 8:00 PM, Jpdorrian said:

Agree non definitive, you just need to get agreement with your local gaming group. Since no one in my group has run it that way I can't say for sure how it would be ruled at a local event. I tend to air on the side of caution, if something looks to good to be true it's usually is wrong or will be FaQed

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This is where I disagree as I genuinely don't think it's too good to be true and I don't think it's an exploitable loophole, I've genuienly believe it's how the clawpack is meant to be played