Gaunt Summoner Familiars and Balewind Vortex

[themortalgod]

So came into an interesting contradiction and was wondering what everyone thought? A Gaunt Summoner's familiars must remain within 1" of him at all time but if he summons a vortex it states that no models can be within 3" of the vortex. Which rule take precedence? Or would this mean a Gaunt Summoner with Familiars cannot summon a vortex? Thoughts?

[Jharen]

"Whenever the Gaunt Summoner is set up or finishes a move, place each surviving Familiar within 1" of him."

Note that it does not say they must remain within 1" of him.  So...

When summoning a Balewind Vortex you are neither setting up nor making a move so the Familiars would not 'follow' the Gaunt Summoner.  Now because the rules for the Vortex state that no models may be within 3" of it you must move the familiars outside of 3" to the Vortex.  The next time you are able to move the Gaunt Summoner they would return to within 1" of him.

See @TheOtherJosh post concerning this, it is the correct interpretation, mine is not.

[TheOtherJosh]

In this case you are performing a "set-up" of the Balewind vortex (and the casting wizard who happens to be the Gaunt Summoner). And placing the Summoner as part of that set-up. (This is because the Summoner was removed.)

 

After completing the set-up, you would then place the familiars within 1" of the Summoner. (Which likely means on top of the balewind vortex with him.)

 

"If successfully cast, remove the caster and set up a Balewind Vortex where they stood. You and your opponent must then move any models so that none are within 3" of the Balewind Vortex if possible to do so. Then, place the caster on the upper platform."

 

 

[Jharen]

4 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

In this case you are performing a "set-up" of the Balewind vortex (and the casting wizard who happens to be the Gaunt Summoner). And placing the Summoner as part of that set-up. (This is because the Summoner was removed.)

The Balewind Vortex is being set-up, not the caster.  The caster is simply being placed on top of the Vortex from where he previously stood.

Set-up indicates that something is being deployed.  The caster in this case is not being deployed (set-up), but simply repositioned.

From the FAQ:

Q: What is ‘set-up’, exactly?

A: ‘Set-up’ is typically when a unit is placed on the table during deployment, but can also refer to a unit being deployed in a location other than on the battlefield, or being put into play once the game has started (a unit using the Stormcast Eternal Warrior Chamber’s Lightning Strike, the Chameleon Skinks’ Chameleon Ambush, or the Treelord’s Spirit Paths ability, for example). Models can set up within 3" of the enemy, even if they are set up in the movement phase, unless noted otherwise in the rules for the ability that allows them to be set up once the battle is under way.

[TheOtherJosh]

The Summoner is specifically removed from the board, anything not on the board is not in play. Which requires that they be put back in play.

 

These functions occur as part of the spell.

 

The set-up action occurs.

 

Part of that setup is taking the summoner that was removed from the board and placing it on the vortex. This moves the Summoner into play.

 

The Summoner has now been put into play. As the Summoner has been put into play from the removed from the board state that would seem to qualify as set-up. Based on the exact description from the FAQ.

 

[Jharen]

I see your point.  Most of these types of repositioning abilities I've come across state to "remove the model from the battlefield" or "remove the model from play and set it aside".  This one does not state that and simply says "remove the caster", which I sort of glazed over due to brief its wording.

[Terry Pike]

I've used this at the Heat 1 tournament. It was ruled that you just put the models there with him as there is no reason they wouldn't follow him up there.

Hopefully this was added to the FAQ if they are doing a Tzeentch update.

[Arkiham]

On 2017-6-16 at 3:20 AM, Jharen said:

"Whenever the Gaunt Summoner is set up or finishes a move, place each surviving Familiar within 1" of him."

Note that it does not say they must remain within 1" of him.  So...

When summoning a Balewind Vortex you are neither setting up nor making a move so the Familiars would not 'follow' the Gaunt Summoner.  Now because the rules for the Vortex state that no models may be within 3" of it you must move the familiars outside of 3" to the Vortex.  The next time you are able to move the Gaunt Summoner they would return to within 1" of him.

I feel this is wrong, as they are of his warscroll and not separate entities like the hellcannon for instance