Chariots chariots chariots

[bottomfeeder]

I've been prepping for a small event in May, but haven't played enough games to get a strong feel for my chariots.

(At this point I play pure Tomb Kings with no snakes as I never picked them up)

In the games I have played with chariots a group of 3 seems too small to be effective.  Is it typically better to bring a group of 6+ or to go with the Royal Legion of Chariots battalion?  

As a devotee to (as Arkhan put it) the Nehekharan way of war.  What can I do to make chariots work effectively? 

Are they an "all-in" selection when building a list?

[Sception]

3 chariots is a good unit, but they're not a solo damage source.  What they are is a cheap-ish battleline filler, with the speed to go after unoccupied objectives, enough resilience between their 15 wounds and 5 wound recursion (10  wound recursion if you have a herald in range) to take some concerted effort on your opponent's part to remove, and enough offensive impact on the charge to chase off enemy objective campers or offer some meaningful combat support if your actual melee bread & butter units (tomb guard, necroknights, big skeleton warrior blocks, etc) are getting a bit bogged down.

A unit or two of these offer decent utility, and are a good option for filling battle line slots after your first big block of skeletons, but you shouldn't expect them to break harder enemy units, let alone formations, on their own.

Yes, you can up the unit sizes to get a bit more out of them - two units of six for instance, within range of a herald or two, and maybe with a necromancer for vanhels, can do a fair bit more, but the lack of rend and their inability to keep the damage up after the charge really stands in the way of running them as backbone combat units.

If you really want to run chariots as your main-stay offence, then their formation is the way to go.  It doesn't fix their difficulties with the turn after the charge, but the mortal wounds on the way in can help a lot with their lack-of-rend problems.  Unfortunately, it's a rather expensive formation, and that's on top of having to field the royal chariot, who isn't a complete waste but isn't something I'd recommend taking if you weren't required to, either.  If you could opt to field settra in place of the royal chariot, then you might be onto something, but as it is I'm pretty skeptical.

 

Again, I don't think chariots are bad units by any stretch, but they really do work best when thought of as support and utility rather than a primary offensive vector.

[Squirrelmaster]

Yeah, chariot's aren't really a hard-hitting unit no matter how you buff them, but they are pretty resilient. They make for a good mobile tar-pit. They're okay for harassing the enemy and supporting your troops. They just aren't what people expect "chariots" to be.

[bottomfeeder]

I think I've been looking at them in the wrong light.  I've been blinded by the double their attacks ability rather than considering them a tarpit that can get there swiftly.

Taking that into account it sounds like a unit of 3 is the best investment, and I just need to be choosing their engagements more carefully.

Would you consider Skeleton Horsemen as an inferior unit that does the same job then?  Or does the added speed grant them anything useful?  Versus soft targets or as an objective grabber does the resilience of chariots give them a better purchase on usability?

[Sception]

Horsemen are cheaper and faster, but they don't tank hits nearly as well (especially when you consider the effects of a tomb herald), nor do they hit as hard.  Chariots won't break hard targets on their own, but they can sweep isolated, msu infantry squads off of objectives or lend support to a combat that's bogging down in a way that horsemen just don't.

So while they're both cheapish, fastish units that chase objectives, chariots have additional utility that horsemen can't provide.  I would definitely rate chariots higher than horsemen.  Would only field horsemen if you have exactly 100 points and one required battle line slot left and no way to shift things around to get something else out of it.

[swarmofseals]

I can't help but wonder how things will shake out after GHB 2 hits, assuming the provisional point changes stick. Right now it's pretty silly to take chariots over necropolis knights, but when it's 240 points vs 140 points it may look a lot different. Gonna do some math! For offensive efficiency, chariots are 37.33 points per rend 0 wound, 18.67 points per rend 0 wound on the charge. Necropolis Knights are 31.53 points per rend 1 wound plus 320 points per mortal wound. Chariots are 5.19 points per effective wound (assuming deathless minions but not ruler of the night), Necropolis Knights are 8.89 points per effective wound against ranged and 6.67 points per effective wound in melee. 

Just for reference, rend 1 wounds vs. rend 0 wounds:

• same against - save
• 20% better against 6+ save
• 25% better against 5+ save
• 33% better against 4+ save
• 50% better against 3+ save
• 100% better against 2+save

So offensively:

• Against no save, charging chariots are 69% more efficient than Necropolis Knights, while Necropolis Knights are 18% more efficient than non-charging chariots
• Against 6+ save, charging chariots are 40% more efficient than Necropolis Knights, while Necropolis Knights are 42% more efficient than non-charging chariots
• Against 5+ save, charging chariots are 35% more efficient than Necropolis Knights, while Necropolis Knights are 48% more efficient than non-charging chariots
• Against 4+ save, charging chariots are 27% more efficient than Necropolis Knights, while Necropolis Knights are 57% more efficient than non-charging chariots
• Against 3+ save, charging chariots are 13% more efficient than Necropolis Knights, while Necropolis Knights are 78% more efficient than non-charging chariots
• Against 2+ save, Necropolis Knights are 18% more efficient than charging chariots and 137% more efficient than non-charging chariots

Note that those numbers don't include the small amount of mortal wounds the Necropolis Knights deal or the ranged offense provided by the chariots. Against low armor targets those extras are vaguely a wash, while against medium and high armor targets they are increasingly more significant (representing a 15% increase in offensive output against 4+ save and a 30% increase against a 2+ save)

Defensively:

• Chariots are 71% more efficient in terms of raw points per wound and in terms of effective wounds (non-combat)
• Chariots are 29% more efficient in terms of effective wounds (close combat)

 

This all pretty interesting. The picture painted by the numbers is quite ambiguous. It looks like both units will be useful going forward.

 

 

[Sception]

Well, it certainly looks like necropolis knights will be less useful.  Whether chariots will be more useful kind of depends on what is done to the points costs of other units in other factions.  I rather expect tomb kings and fyreslayers will be the only factions to see significant points changes, otherwise they wouldn't have been put out in advance with instructions to play them alongside other factions at the current point values.

[swarmofseals]

17 minutes ago, Sception said:

Well, it certainly looks like necropolis knights will be less useful.  Whether chariots will be more useful kind of depends on what is done to the points costs of other units in other factions.  I rather expect tomb kings and fyreslayers will be the only factions to see significant points changes, otherwise they wouldn't have been put out in advance with instructions to play them alongside other factions at the current point values.

It's definitely possible, but I'd be surprised if we didn't see points increases for other outlier units like Thundertusks/Stonehorns, Kurnoth Hunters etc. 

Chariots become more useful by virtue of Necropolis Knights becoming less useful. Aside from being battleline, they are pretty well dominated by NKs now. Looks like that will no longer be true, but they also won't exactly dominate NKs either.