[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

16 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

I was super underwhelmed when I saw the realm artefacts. Everything is rerolling ones by the first glance. Super easy solution by GW compared to all the other recent greatness:/ Such a waste of cool artefact ideas.
How easily they just tossed all of those artefacts in the trash, makes you wonder how easy they can toss other stuff.
Mortars? Why did they go? They were not OP at all? 

I mean yeah, but at the same time they had way too many choices before and there was maybe 1-2 good ones per realm anyway. Many armies didn't even bother with their own artifacts and always chose one of those, which is what they didn't want. Of course that hurts those armies because their artifacts aren't exactly great by comparison, but ah well. I would still say it's a net positive since now I don't have to worry about 2-3+ save ethereal monsters running around 😉

The mortars are.. odd. They were clearly in the pictures for our tome yet didn't show up. The issue with all those sculpts was that they came from IoB\SoD and were all mixed sprues with (now squatted) High Elves. I would assume it wasn't worth producing any of those Skaven models if they knew the High Elves would be squatted in a year anyway and they had to do them both together unless they re-made those molds. I really do miss those Mortars.. that was back in the day the Warpspark would double their damage to 12 and they were cheap enough to always take 3-4 of them as long range guns 😅

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

1 hour ago, Darkhan said:

FFFFUUUUK! That's true! SoJ is no more, and I just bought a Corruptor😭
Have 3 Verminlords for the magic list, now its all gone!😭

Yeah, it's a shame because I bought a Warpgnaw about a month ago but now he'll never see the table.

A potential alternative so he isn't totally useless is the Incandescent Rageblade from Aqshy. Gives exploding 6's to hit which could work with the MW's on 6's I think? Other than that maybe Brooding Blade or Blade of Corruption but.. yeah, no option will equal the damage potential of SoJ unless you take the Corruptor in Legion of Chaos Ascendant to get the Fourfold Blade. A Warpgnaw would probably be the better option now (even without Ghyrstrike) but in doing that you lose an anti-horde spell. If you're bringing Thanquol though, that probably won't matter.
 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

1 hour ago, Num said:

Also @Gwendar do you think that there is no hope for magic anymore? I've got a Balewind Vortex sitting around and enjoyed the times where I threw 6 spells a turn 😢

If your local meta spams Lumineth, Seraphon or Tzeentch then.. nah, probably not going to go great. Against anything else and I still think it's "okay". It still suffers from the fact we only get the +1 to cast from the Gnawhole which are spread around the table. I would definitely say Thanquol is more of an auto-include in that setup now, especially if you're taking WLV.

I honestly think the 2 biggest hits to my magic based list is losing SoJ and only having 3 Endless Spells allowed in a list. Without SoJ for the Corruptor and the Warpgnaw also losing Ghyrstrike as an alternative, it kind of gets rid of that 6" deepstrike hero\horde assassin that was integral to the list. Only having a max of 3 Endless Spells kill it a bit as well. That said.. yeah, an AW on a Balewind with CWL and his innate WLS is still a fun combo.

34 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Warpseer with Skavenbrew and Master Moulder with Rapid Crown 🤩🤩🤩🤩

Bingo 😉

[AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion]

14 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

20 Pinks is a thing of beauty.

I also didn't want to build or transport 100 models worth of the stuff but.. here we are, with that as the best option.. or more Flamers but less bodies.

[AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion]

2 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

I think you need a VERY good reason not to.  Not wanting to "Be that guy" is good enough but that does sort of fall away in a tourney.  Not that we've been doing many of those as of late...

For events, I bailed on CH when I wanted to go all in on Multidunious Host.  Casually, I played it a couple of times against a couple of  mates and then shelved it.  

For anything local I would always be bringing the Summoners list.. anything beyond that I would consider #2 as my local players are a bit on the casual side except for a handful of guys. Not to say I wouldn't run #1 in a tournament setting as I think it can potentially work pretty well there.. it just doesn't have the drop count or visual threat of 12 Flamers and 20 Pinks 😉.

I'm playing Skaven anyway for the next 2 tournaments.. but definitely wanted to give these 2 lists a shot before the next ones start so all the advice is appreciated.

[AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion]

5 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

I can´t see a single reason to not run MSU with Flamers. There are no unit buffs what so ever which are good on larger Flamer units. Or did I miss something?

Nah, you just missed me being used to trying to keep big units together (Stormfiends for me) which is obviously irrelevant in a 1-drop setup with no single unit buffs 😉

I think after other discussion I'll probably go the Changehost route after all. Both lists have their merits and play pretty differently.. the Summoners one had a bigger question of Enlightened vs Skyfires.

[AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion]

I've decided to get back into Tzeentch.. although I'm trying to avoid Horror spam outside of maybe just running 1 unit of Pinks. Anyway, couple of ideas I've throw around with others with tournament settings in mind.

GoS:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Be'Lakor (240)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Contemplated swapping Skyfires for Enlightened instead and using those 60 points leftover for another Endless Spell.. Pendulum or BW for the Changecaster or Blue Scribes maybe? That way I have more spellcasts on top of a high speed melee threat.. not that Skyfire's can't do decent in melee with the discs, but the Enlightened needing to go 2nd for the RR's is what worries me about using them.


Conflag Shooting:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 76
 

Changehost or no Changehost... kind of the question I've been asking myself. I'm sure the answer is likely a resounding "Well yeah, always you idiot?" but I wasn't sure. If I did that I would obviously drop Kairos but wouldn't be able to squeeze in another 10 Pinks without being 1 under the minimum of 8 Daemons, not to mention I would be negating my only rule of not having more than 1 unit of Pinks.. guess I could just do more Flamers.. or split what I have into MSU's of 3 😉.

But hey, that's why I'm asking here to see what you all think. I know there's been lots of list talk but I'm definitely looking at testing some stuff out on TTS for a couple months before anything is bought.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

28 minutes ago, Predien said:

You mind sharing the lists you've been playing recently? I'm a collector of armies but when I play competitively I usually find myself coming back to Skaven or FEC. I've got a good amount of Skryre stuff but I'm missing the weapon teams, jezzails, and acolytes. Might have to revisit Skaven in the fall and round out the collection.

You're 100% right about the AW/Engineer getting blown off the table. That is a real concern in this meta and I know when those stormfiends aren't buffed they aren't doing anything but taking up space and they are wayyy too expensive to not be doing anything. The Vigordust + giving them rr1s to hit helps a little bit but nothing compared to what MMWP does for them. If I was playing against Seraphon there's no way I'd ever get MMWP off and even if I did my AW/Engineer is dead by turn 3 - 2 if my opponent is lucky. Acolytes are a unit that I've been wanting to mess with but haven't pulled the trigger due to the age of their actual models. If I ever want to get some I'll just convert plague monks or the Blood Bowl box.

Oh I've got way too many, all with varying degrees of success, although it hasn't helped that I've been playing against Seraphon more than anything else which, no matter what is a horrific matchup unless he uses less magic\shooting based lists (he doesn't competitively). Submitted this as my list for the 2 TTS tournaments I spoke about this weekend\next week:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & Shield

Units
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)

Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (420)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 186

I took it from Dan Brewer (which I made sure he was aware 😉) but I definitely have reservations about it since my version was Fiends and 6 Jezzails over the Acolytes and the Bell. I had another one knocking around in my head that uses the classic Fiends with Bridge with Monks for melee, which I still think is a wonderful choice against our good matchups (IE, anything that can't dispel it easily) but can be used quite well against the bully armies if you manage to get it off. Which, generally I could since I bring Thanquol in that list for that reason.

The idea with the above is just to dampen the blow if the Engineers get taken out since Acolytes can still go after units of 10+ with pretty good effectiveness despite having no buffs. I think units of 6 Jezzails are just fine and have been running that with good success, but had nothing else worth 140 points I felt I could replace them with so kept the 9. I love Stormvermin, but I still feel they're too expensive since they're really 500 points due to needing that Clawlord for the extra attack. Regardless of that, I want to try them in a tournament since the last one with 80 Monks didn't go great for me. Monks still get most jobs done with the benefit of not needing support and being incredibly cheap. They're going to bounce off anything with a 3+ or better save though most of the time.

Some have began running 2x20 Acolytes and 2-4 Doomwheels with\without Jezzails it seems to be working fairly well. We've never had the resilience to tank a double turn against us, so lists like that can generally play it back for a turn with Clanrat screens or run up with the Acolytes and Doomwheels and take stuff off and I'm very intrigued by these types of lists. Someone linked Doom & Darkness' latest batrep where he played against a Skaven player doing just that and it was great.. of course 1 bad priority roll and the Skaven player would've lost by T2.. such is the way of life for us though.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

40 minutes ago, Predien said:

I deployed with the idea of having 2 major threats - Grey Seer + Clawlord + 40 stormvermin and 40 Clanrats + 6 fiends + arch warlock. I brought the doomwheel for fun because the model, in the past, has done cool stuff whenever I field him. During this game, the DW brought Belakor down to 2 wounds and then he proceeded to blow himself up by doing 11 mortals to himself. I love that little ******. I really wanted to try a bunch of stormvermin fully buffed. They never got a chance to really fight because most of the damage came out of my stormfiends. Also, I was being too conservative with the stormvermin so next time I'm going to get them in there. In the right scenario, they would have 4 attacks each on 3/2/-1/1 and fighting when they die.

Not having access to the realm artefacts really makes you think differently about your lists. I think it's going to let people try out a lot more tome specific artefacts and I really like that.

I ended up losing by 1 point but realized later that evening that I would have been getting 1 extra point each turn from the Grey Seer holding an objective making me the winner in the end. It was a really fun list, a really fun game, and I'm looking forward to trying it out again with some tweaks. I think I would drop the doomwheel and fit in some more clanrats + an endless spell but I'm not sure yet. I could also drop the doomwheel and batallion and fit in a HPA, more clan rats, and an endless spell but I don't have an HPA yet and the less drops + extra artefact and CP are pretty important. I really feel like Skaven are in a good spot to not only be a competitive army but to be something that isn't giving bad play experiences to the other person (even though 6 stormfiends fully buffed hit like dumptrucks still).

At least you didn't play against the "60 Blightkings" meme-lists people are starting to run with their points drops 😅

Nice to see how it went for you overall. I never really considered the battalion so my quest is the same as Skreechs. I feel in this setup you'd be fine running Skavenbrew or Vigordust but having both isn't super worth that huge price tag on the battalion. I'll say that losing the realm artifacts is probably a net positive for us as everyone is losing their big Ethereal monsters (although, RIP Warpgnaw with Ghyrstrike). I'm mostly settled on my Acolytes\Fiends+Stormvermin\Monks+Jezzails lists, but seeing so many new options from everyone is refreshing.

I would agree about our competitivity. I do overall think we're in a reasonable spot (sometimes it feels worse, however), but against some of the new power creep it's generally going to be incredibly hard or impossible to do well. Having that AW\Engineer get blown off the table right away instantly makes the Fiends do nothing which is why I've gravitated more towards Acolytes as the points difference takes away the sting if I lose the hero and they generally do better than Fiends without buffs.. but not by much. I usually prefer being the underdog so I'm fine with where we sit.. it's just that those bad play experience armies seem to be coming more numerous.

Being the only local Skaven player, people know what my stuff can do and hyper focus heroes if able as the units tend to be subpar without them. I really feel a good change would be to only allow heroes to be targeted if they're the closest model like 40k, which I suggested before. Perhaps making it an army specific ability as I imagine most Skaven heroes are narratively surrounded by hordes of Clanrats anyway.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

13 hours ago, Sartxac said:

Hi team, i want prove this list. Arch Warlock (with the pokeball that kill any enemy except Gortrek with a +6) +Warlock engeener in order to do stronger Stormfiends and Vermintide so as to foiling an enemy charge againts a horde of clanrats. One unit of stomvermin before a second line of clanrats.

A few things I see wrong here, but if your goal is casual and not some kind of tournament list then ignore me 😉

Hoping to get the Brass Orb off on a 6+ and also to be in range of something that it wants to kill is a bit fleeting. More often than not it isn't going to work and thus it's a bit wasted.. but you don't have many options with what you're running. As for the Fiends, that's really the only threat you have in this list, except maybe for rolling well on the Doomwheels movement and shooting to kill a support hero. Once those Fiends (or the AW\Engineer) are gone, you have no hitting power whatsoever as they do next to no damage without buffs (around 4-5 times less damage, going from ~34 damage vs a 4+ save to ~8).

You have a lot of points tied into Clawhorde and it isn't doing anything for you; I just don't think a few less drops, a CP and another Artifact is worth 180 points in any way. I would much rather have 40 Stormvermin or none at all as there really is no benefit to them in anything smaller than that. At that point you would be better off just using Clanrats.

Any competitive list for us really needs to be running 2-4 threats. I do my best to include a long-range hero killing threat (6-9 Jezzails but the 2 Windlauncher Fiends can do this reasonably well too if buffed), something short\mid-range (Acolytes or Fiends) and something close range (Stormvermin or Monks). Doomwheel can work, but I think most of us will agree you need a minimum of 2 to pull anything off consistently. The advantage that we have as Skaven is that we can play relatively well in each phase.. although a lot of the stuff isn't magnificent on paper and rapidly falls off when going under 30 models or losing support heroes compared to other armies.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

5 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

It’s a bit less bodies I would prefer taking

Sometimes I really do wonder if you're joking when you say things like that about a 200+ model list 😂

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

My friend, you might not have noticed (unless I’m mistaken, and there has been an faq clarifying that stuff) but death frenzy allows a model to attack at any moment, when they die.

So yes, death frenzy might not be needed against the more magic/shooting heavy armies, but can help significantly when cast.

Right, I knew that.. I should stop responding when I first wake up with only 1 eye open and half a brain.

I think what I meant (now with coffee) is that it wouldn't be entirely useful in that regard. I've played against 60 Crossbow + 30 Handgunners HH lists as well as 12 Salamander lists and no melee whatsoever.. so in those matchups I generally couldn't care less if DF gets unbound.

2 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Yea pretty much. I'm time poor with two kids under 3, so don't have the time to practise and paint up a whole bunch of new models.

Its frustrating, because every list I make with fiends i just know that any decent opponent with solid sniping (magic or shooting) just has to take off 10 wounds to seriously neuter the output. I wish there was a better way to protect heroes but i guess that would just make buff heavy lists too strong.

Nah I get it, luckily TTS lets me test out a ton of lists.. and with all my tournaments getting cancelled this year anyway, I have plenty of time to test things before I buy and paint any physical models. It helps that a lot of these TTS tournaments have a large variety of armies and very good players to go against.

I've come to terms that it's almost always going to be an auto-lose against a competent player of something heavily shooting\magic focused and that's fine; everyone has their good\bad matchups. I think we used to be fairly competent against almost anything, but we've mostly fallen in effectiveness to the newer hotness\meta, which is also fine. But having my local Seraphon player (who has played against my Skaven for almost 2 years) know that all he has to do is easily take out 2 Engineers that I can't protect because of Kroaks board-wide damage.. yeah, I don't stand a chance in wiping anything off the table at that point.

While you don't need to table an opponent, you absolutely need to be able to play chess\checkers with them and trade threats in order to keep objectives your own. Without those Engineers, Fiends are doing about 4-5 times less damage which is insane and I don't know of many units in the game that suffer that heavily by losing a single buffing hero.. not to that extent. (Maybe Seraphon as quite a few units are bad on paper... except for Salamanders)
 

So.. I don't know. I think if the Fiends were naturally hitting on 3's they would be far better. But if you did that, you should probably make MMMWP only RR 1's or just fails? Maybe if you do neither of these then they need a solid points drop since they're so horrific without that 110-160 point hero that is easily sniped?

Or maybe we get introduced to a new mechanic; something like 40k where you can't even target a hero unless it's the closest model unless you have an ability that lets you ignore this (assuming that's still a thing in 40k.. I don't know since I don't keep up with it).

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

1 hour ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

This is the list dan brewer was posting in one of the Facebook groups and I think it is a really balanced choice for us, making the best use of our point adjustments. 

I'm personally not a fan of such high body count lists, as i can't play fast enough. I also think getting the acolytes  and stormvermin where you want them will be much harder than our standard stormfiend lists. In the hands of an experienced skaven player though, this list will be very good. 

Looking at the new secondaries, i think it will do a solid job on objective play as well as dishing out some massive damage if given the chance. 

 

Edit: I also like that it won't rely on doing well in the magic phase, which seems smart in the current meta. 

Hey I told him I was going to steal it from him 😉. I had something very similar I was throwing around in the discord but after seeing his rendition, I definitely prefered it. I've been big on 80 Monks but after seeing then bounce off 10 Wardens and do 3-4 damage I feel the need to do something with SV.

Higher counts aren't an issue for me (and yes Skreech, we know you aren't content unless you have 180+ on the table) since playing this army for 3 years has kinda... Developed that fast play skill. Don't get me wrong, I still prefer Fiends.. however I've been really tiring of having both Engineers get sniped off the table with board wide spells and the like, rendering those 520 points useless. I'd be much more okay if that happened and only making 200 points useless... Even without them the Acolytes can still delete hordes rather well.

And yeah.. overall I'm trying to dip away from magic when it comes to Skaven. As I've said before, we do better against Combat armies anyway who may not have strong magic so those aren't the armies I worry about unbinding things like Bridge or MMMWP. But I feel I have a better chance this way overall as Acolytes are less reliant on it compared to Fiends and I have Deranged as backup anyway, while the only thing I'm worried about is Death Frenzy. But if that's unbound by a magic/shooting based army, it won't really matter anyway since it only allows fighting back if they die via melee.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

39 minutes ago, michu said:

Ok, I've adjusted my 1250 pts list. I still don't know if cutting a CP for Clawlord is a good idea...

Well, what exactly is he there for? To buff the Clanrats with +1 attack? If so, yeah I'm not sure that's the best way to spend those points. Assuming you get 30 of them in with +1 attack, you're really only looking at 6-13 damage on average.

At that point I would rather just bring another 20 Clanrats possibly. Obviously it isn't all about max damage.. but with the game being won on objectives, more bodies would suit you better most likely than giving 40 Clanrats a tiny bit more damage that will drastically drop once they go below 30.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

As do I.. though a bit too much melee for my personal taste 😉


Thinking of giving one of these a run for the tournament coming up:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
Clawlord (100)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & Shield

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

Only 2 threats if you don't count the Warbringer.. but a Double DF on the SV will keep pretty much any combat focused army away. Naturally it may not fair as well against pure shooting\spellcasting but.. such is the way of Skaven life.

This however would be a bit more balanced out and probably my top choice:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & Shield

Units
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)

Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (420)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 186
 

 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

8 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Not seen the new GHB myself, but I’ve been reading some of the leaks etc. Just read something about wards saves/ feel no pain not being able to stack anymore.

Is this true? And how does this affect our Skaven?

It is but.. doesn't really affect anything for us unless you were one of those people still running a Warpseer with Suspicious Stone. It still works with Verminous Valor coupled with Protection of the Horned Rat because the wounds are allocated first and then passed off onto another unit via Verminous Valor. Or so is the argument; it will need to be FAQ'd I'm sure to cease any differing of opinions.
 

8 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Ironic a WLV down to 80, SSB up to 100 - no points change when using both.  But no other endless spell pts changes. 

What's even funnier is KO now get to use WLV for even less points and they make better use of it 😉

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Fair enough. And a bell isn’t a bad idea as well. It gets expensive. But I never jumped on the monk train as I dislike the aesthetic. 
Plus battleline, run and retreat, can get the same buffs as clanrats so buff pieces gave more options. 

and I’m not that competitive. 

but again, very valid points. 

Oh believe me, I don't care for their aesthetic either, especially with being old models. I'm almost exclusively competitive (as I'm sure everyone has figured out at this point 😅) so I tend to be a bit biased in that particular regard.

I had a 15 minute game with Seraphon yesterday. He wiped my 2 Engineers off the table with the board-wide spell + run and shoot Bastilidons right away and I called the game as there was no way 6 Fiends would be able to kill\get in range of Kroak and his 5 Guard + Astrolith. Nor would they (or the 40 Monks I brought) be killing 2 Bastilidons and a Stegadon. One of the first times I really felt that there was literally no way to compete against a list, no matter what I ran.

Now, all that said... I think the following has a lot of steam, but my above point about being challenged by the meta bullies still stands strong with it:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & Shield

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

I'm not sold on it, and I actually made a different variant that took out the Bell for 6 Jezzails and replaced Bridge with Bell of Doom to give me 3 threats. In this one, you're really only rocking 2 unless you count the Warbringer, but I wouldn't personally.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

16 hours ago, Kramer said:

Have I heard right that it's finally the age of the Stormvermin due to a points decrease? 😅

Because that would definitely get me excited about this army again. 

I think they'll show up more often, but I'm still not certain on their competitive usefulness. 500 points (because I consider the Clawlord essential to elevate them above Monks) for a unit of 40 is hard to swallow, although there's plenty of us that run 630+ points worth of a unit + hero with Fiends so I guess it isn't that much different. They definitely won't make matchups against the current meta bullies anymore even since they'll blow them off the table before they can touch anything. Against everything else? Yeah they'll delete them, but generally 40 Monks will too.

I've been inclined to try them by doing 2x20\1x40+1x20 Clanrats and 1x40 SV as battleine.. but when I can pay 560 points for 80 Monks that will do around the same damage it's hard to make that choice. So, my ranting aside... yeah, they're great, but I still think they need to be around 360 for 40, barring a warscroll rewrite to justify their current cost.
 

4 hours ago, RoyalDachshund said:

Any idea how to incorporate Forgeworld's Skaven Warlord on Your Mom in the army list? Got this model lying around, about to start it but I'm not sure wheter to paint it as a piece of army or for display purposes with some wacky colours.

Well, in my statement above this it would fit pretty perfectly. Matching a Clawlord\"Clawlord on your Mom" works best with Stormvermin present to give them +1 attack. Just a slight more resilient and mobile Clawlord is all it boils down to.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

@Num change all those within\wholly within ranges of 12" to 13" and we have ourselves a deal 😉

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

8 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

@Gwendar how do you feel about the WLV with the point drop. It's one I have been thinking about, especially running thanquol. I keep putting it into lists and then taking it back out.

Seems there are quite differing views on it. Dan brewer was on honest wargamer this week talking about it. Although Rob was going on about how the spell is still broken...which I think is ****** tbh, Dan thinks the decreased range means it going to block our own stuff and might be more of a hinderance than benefit, even with the point reduction. 

I dunno.. It's still one of those things that is great when it works, but when it does 3-4 MW's across 2 phases it feels horrible. It really wants to be cast right on top of a bunch of squishy heroes, but now KO is better at doing that than we are 🙄. I'll take it now and then, but overall I'd rather have another 20 Clanrats most of the time.

The issue is that it left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.. Tom and Vince on WW are also quite vocal about how horrible it still is when it's literally never taken by Skaven armies anymore and always by KO that run Spell in a Bottle or whatever. I find that it's no worse than Teclis + Spell portal or the SC Comet just to name a couple things. He is right though, with the reduced range you're probably getting it out on T2\3 when your own stuff is just as likely to be in range of getting hit by it as the enemy.. and again, with the swingy damage it won't always be something that someone will stay away from if it means they can snag an objective from you real quick.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

17 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Yea I went off the bridge because it felt like it required too much setup and with the amount of magic around at the moment its even easier for it to be interrupted, and its just so many points. 

I'm wary of dropping the extra CP because without the screaming bell, it leaves my army open to taking some heavy losses from battleshock on the first turn. 

Awesome advice though,  confirms what i had been thinking, that list 1 would do what i want it to more reliably. There is something appealing to just rolling the dice with the DW WLC though. 

Just got a new PC so I might give TS a try at some point. I'll hit you up if I do.  

True, but again I'm thinking more about those 3 out of 5 games where I don't play against Seraphon, Tzeentch or Lumineth, which is what I think you're aiming to do; hell if I get top 10 in a 30-60 player event I'm content. In those games against magically inferior armies, you've got a near guaranteed chance of it not getting unbound and even against those armies with Thanquol you can be okay, especially if you make sure you're out of unbind (which I know can be hard if they go first and get closer, but usually we're forced to go first due to our high drop count and Tzeentch\Seraphon\Lumineth generally playing low drops). It's definitely not a requirement anymore like it was with the whole 9-Fiends-across-the-bridge-alpha-strike lists, but it still works well a lot of the time as a utility piece.

This is true, although with proper pre-measuring of the opponents threat range I generally haven't had issues in that regard. At most I'll get alpha'd from them getting a double turn, but then I have the chance at getting one myself and all\most of their heavy hitters are now right in front of my Monks and Fiends that sat behind those 60-100 Clanrats.. even if they get BS'd off at this point, I generally have enough stuff to clear the board and cap objectives for 3 turns 😉

I get your points with all of the above, I just want to give some alternate views. AoS really boils down to deployment and objective control, so bodies and 3 threats minimum works best. You could consider dropping Jezzails and taking a Bell if you're that worried about BS simply because the 6 Fiends can also take out support heroes with about the same statistical likelihood as 6 Jezzails. Of course, I like having both so you can double down on something like Kroak or target 2 separate ones. But yeah, definitely let me know.. I play more than just Skaven so you don't have to worry about a mirror match 😅

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

49 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

List 2 is definitely fun with the WLC and DW. I'm just not sure how frustrated I will get in a tournament setting if one of the other clans has decided to meddle with our machinery and they don't end up performing. 

List 1: Im not sure 6 jezzails is enough to do the job of sniping heroes. I used to run 6 Jezzails but found them a bit hit and miss. Much prefer taking 9 but I just can't fit it in with stormfiends and 2 engineers. I can't justify dropping to 1 engineer either, I think with all the ranged magic sniping and shooting in the meta currently, I feel like the redundancy is necessary to justify the investment on stormfiends. 

What do you guys reckon, is there something i've missed here? Is this list going to be able to handle at least some of the newer armies? 

I definitely prefer 1. I've pretty much exclusively gone down to only 6 Jezzails for the sole purpose of killing support heroes. Even without a Warpspark (but still with RR's to hit) and being on 5's to hit, if only 3 of those go through then you're looking at a dead hero.. and for 280 points, I don't think we have much better to fill that specific role. Units of 9-12 are just able to punch stuff that's a bit bigger, but even then they'll often struggle to 1-shot anything at that wounds\save level. You do have Windlaunchers that could also snipe out a hero so that's another reason I don't feel you need 9 Jezzails anymore, but that's just me.

List 2 you pretty much summed up; unreliability. I've been playing a lot more competitive\tournament minded people the last few weeks and have learned a lot from that and changed a few things I was previously set in. DW's and WLC's are great when they work but that's the problem with them. 6 Jezzails will more consistently work and they're cheaper. I think if you wanted to take DW's or WLC's, you would need 2-3 to justify it.. but again, is that worth the points cost compared to 6-9 Jezzails who could do the same thing for cheaper and more consistently?

Something I've come to realize is that it generally isn't worth building specifically towards countering those 3-4 S Tier meta armies unless the build can work for everything in between. Thanquol is still up for debate for a lot of the top tier Skaven players; generally between himself or just running a Bell with Master of Magic for less (I dislike this as it would mean I couldn't get Deranged Inventor as a MMMWP failsafe). I personally like him, but he definitely isn't in every list. Just like any other big hero, any good tournament player will see what he can do and remove him from the table, keep him outside 8", etc. We work well in that we can be present in multiple phases and don't do any 1 thing exceptionally well... which is why the "classic" 40 Monks +6 Fiends + 6 Jezzails still works well and is what I keep going back to. Oh, and worth mentioning that if you're taking Thanquol, Soulscream Bridge actually isn't too bad and you could take it by dropping a CP + Pendulum.

Anyway, good luck to you.. just get that practice in. If you want to get some games in via Tabletop Simulator let me know and I can invite you to some discord groups 😉 

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

4 hours ago, Firefrog said:

Laser Cannon Deathsentence

Jezzails are also very poorly, especially if you compare them to the Stormcast variant which can shoot twice and has more range and they got a price reduction.

I appreciate your reference 🤘

I would agree with Doomwheels, which is why I would always take 2 to average them out.. but yeah, is that worth it for 300? Probably not, at least not compared to 6 Jezzails and they would certainly not be something I expect to be in range of (nor the best target for) MMMWP or a Warpspark. And yeah, Jezzails are definitely just worse versions of Longstrikes, but they are our best 5 wound hero killer next to the previously mentioned Windlaunchers. 2 WLC's are obviously good too, but swinginess generally isn't the best idea for competitiveness.

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

6 hours ago, Num said:

I am also wondering about the long range shooting options we have. From what I've read here, I see either jezzails or WLC.

But can 6 stormfiends (2* globes) play that role instead? Is it enough?

Or 2-3 plagueclaws and a architect of death plague priest for 2-3* 2+/3+(rerollable)/-2/2D6 ?

What about a double arkspark battalion ?

I love my double WLC but I've had some bad luck with them and I'd like to try something more mobile like fiends+doomwheels

Yes actually, they could work if you split those 6 shots onto a support hero in the same way you would use the Jezzails\WLC to target them. If you assume the Fiends are getting Deranged Inventor (lets say MMMWP fails to go off and you have this as backup) + Vigordust + Spark then on average they'll do 6-7 damage vs a 4+. The d3 damage can be swingy, but at the very least you would need 3 of the 6 shots to go through unsaved (which at -3 rend is likely to happen) and even if you roll all 1's or 2's you can still kill them with the +1 damage. Not to mention they don't require Line of Sight.

6 Jezzails will do about 5-6 damage, but may be more "consistent" in that regard with a spark, meaning only 2-3 shots need to go through unsaved.

Plagueclaws I'm still on the fence about really. They're very "all or nothing" much like the Mortek Crawlers, but at least those have a flat damage characteristic. The d6 damage in itself is unreliable compared to the above 2 options, though Plagueclaws would give you a small anti-horde option as well as a potential hero sniping option all in one if you get really luck with rolls. The issue is that even when targeting 10+ model units 1 of them is only going to be doing around 5-7 damage on average which seems pretty abysmal for a 150 point investment that's looking to remove hordes of 20-40 models. I don't know that bringing a Priest for the sole purpose of buffing them with RR Wounds is worth it either as it only adds another 1-2 average damage and you can get Thanquol with 4 Warpfire Throwers for about the same when it comes to a horde clearer who brings magic utility that he does.

As for Arkhspark.. I did it a few times, liked it as it made them more consistent but I still think it's overcosted considering the taxes involved. I'd rather see it change to 80-100 points and be 1-2 Engineers\Bombardiers and 1-2 WLC's and not require the "main" battalion with the AW.

2-3 Doomwheels are pretty consistent at support hero killing and give us some mobility. It just sucks when you really need 5-7+ shots and you roll 2-3; although if you get 2-3 wounds on that hero then you can charge them and do another d3 MW's 😅

[AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion]

I don't normally get in on these rumor debates. The last one with the sword could be Skaven, but it could just as easily be Vampires or Elves.

This one is trickier; Could be Vampires, could be 40k, could be who knows what. But I'll throw you all a suggestion Skaven related; flesh-crafted Moulder wings used by a new Eshin flying unit 😉

As much as I want a Skryre+Eshin combination, I think the more realistic approach may be to update both the Moulder and Eshin lines together and combine the two in a way such as this. Who knows.. they may just update every Clan in some little way to show interaction between them.. or maybe it's purely Moulder.