Enoby
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Posts posted by Enoby
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6 minutes ago, Rachmani said:
So I don‘t see that going away anytime soon.
I think Depravity Points as a concept work very well, but I do think summoning is the thing our book does best. Unfortunately, summoning at the cost of your initial army (e.g. few buffs, middling warscrolls, expensive points) doesn't feel fun or thematic.
Depravity Points, as they work now, would work well for a group of niave cultists. They'd have rubbish stats and poor buffs, but they'd summon their masters to bring about the real army. In an army that was thematically about weaker mortals getting tricked by powerful daemons, current depravity points would be great. To be honest, it would make lore sense for Tzeentch to have the best summoning.
But currently the lore is that our army is full of supremely skilled warriors who value perfection of their craft. Even Blissbarbs, the lowest of the hosts, have good skills with a bow. Summoning is seen as an honour and a blessing, but it doesn't really play out that way. Instead of a powerful army of knights who prove themselves in the name of their god to receive some support from daemons, it's a medium-skilled army of very few knights who need the help of daemons to do much of anything.
Summoning should stay, but it should be toned down to allow the army to stand on its own.
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Thanks for the other White Dwarf info @Neil Arthur Hotep and @Rachmani
It does look like most of them are proportional to their armies, with Khorne being the exception (maybe Slaves to Darkness too, but they didn't really need much help - they have some bad warscrolls, but their allegiance abilities are mostly fine if not a bit restrictive).
If we get something proportional, then being one of the worst armies win rate-wise, we should theoretically get something at the Beasts of Chaos level. On the other hand, Beasts of Chaos were infamously bad for a very long time and they attempted multiple fixes before this one, so it probably won't be on their level.
I don't want to presume too much, but the loudest complaints have been "too many points" and "too much of a focus on summoning" (and "Slaangors suck" but that may be a GHB fix).
They can't fix the points but they can do something about the summoning. Even if it it, as mentioned before by others, a bonus for storing depravity over spending it.
In all honesty, I'd love this and it'd go a long way to fixing an army if the rules were good enough.
Even if it was a "spend X depravity for Y buff this turn", that'd still be a nice alternative.
Things like extra rend, run and charge, automatic Locus of Diversion, always strike first on one unit - all would be thematic buffs.
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1 hour ago, Jaskier said:
I think unique heroic actions make a lot of sense for us.
I agree - it'd be a nice boost, especially for some of our lesser used heroes. Even if it was one per host, it might breathe life into things like the KoS.
I'm just wondering, what have the other White Dwarves been like? From the ones I've seen:
- Ossiarchs: Big changes to their command abilities, including new ones. Overall, a good change to make them more in line with other armies. I think it gave them one or two more heroic actions too.
- Slaves to Darkness: Very small, pretty disappointing changes that just allowed some of the least used heroes to take marks and let cultists be battleline sometimes. A good narrative section though.
- Beasts of Chaos: A pretty huge change which upgraded their herdstone and gave them interesting monstrous actions.
- Khorne: I think this has been considered the worst so far, giving this already rubbish army just a 6+ save against spells, which is worse than one of the Cities of Sigmar armies.
So far the results have been pretty mixed, and there's not really a general pattern to it.
You may initially think "oh, Beasts of Chaos were so bad they just wrote loads to make them better", and that would be sensible, but then Khorne (who has been struggling for nearly just as long) got one of the worst updates.
The absolute best case scenario is that the writer looked at the survey and took in as much as possible for this update. This, however, is pretty unlikely due to the sheer number of changes.
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I'm cautiously optimistic, but we should definitely keep our expectations low just for our own sakes.
I thought it'd be helpful to go over what isn't likely to be improved, mostly on the basis that these changes would be too large or would be in the GHB.
Things that are very unlikely to be changed:
- Points reductions as they're almost always restricted to GHB and December updates
- Warscroll rewrites, again as they're usually restricted to GHB and December updates, and GW may think this would be too hard to keep track of in a White Dwarf
- Allegiance ability overhauls. While we may see tweaks and additions, the core of the book will stay the same. On the bright side, small changes/additions are pretty likely if not certain
- Similar to before, but changes to our summoning is unlikely. Perhaps there will be additional rules like "if you have more DP, your army is stronger so you don't need to summon", but the summoning table itself unlikely to change and I doubt they'll make any changes to the depravity rules.
On the bright side, I think the below are possible/likely to change:
- Changes to each host to reflect the fact that warscroll battalions are no longer used; even if this is just a removal, I hope it will be replaced with something else
- An additional allegiance ability, though no clue what it could be. It may be a small change, but we can hope for Excess of Violence to work on shooting, a benefit for not summoning, and a way to buff our units (perhaps tied into the previous rule)
- We will almost certainly get more core battalions, battle tactics, grand strategies. They probably won't be good but who knows.
- If we're very lucky, and this seems to only happen rarely but it's possible, we may get our own unique spin on the core rules such as BoC's monstrous actions and Ossiarch's command abilities. It would be great if chariots had their own set of monstrous actions
- If we're very lucky, but I do think this is unlikely, we'll get a new host
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Just now, Max Baumann said:
Any chance we can get the other images too (at the bottom)?
Sorry, I got this off a Whatsapp so only have this image
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Also, good news for Slaanesh fans
Let's hope for a Beasts of Chaos over a Blades of Khorne.
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Oooh some big (hopefully) news for us...
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For those wondering, Sigvald looked like this:
It's an incredibly impressive and technically brilliant paint job, no doubt - I would say it shows more raw skill on this model than number one (this isn't to say the painter is more skilled, just model vs model).
However, as an entire piece, Sigvald seems to be less well composed than the Skink. It's technically incredible but it's very grey/metallic, whereas the skink is classic colours and clean.
While I think Sigvald is overall more impressive and more technically demanding, the Skink looked better as a whole piece.
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1 hour ago, Lucentia said:
The instakill ability is kind of interesting in that, unlike most other abilities of its type that we've seen recently, it works even on higher wound heroes, I'm sure we've all had situations where a tough monster hero has survived on 1 wound at an inopportune moment! Of course, the odds of what I assume is a 5w 5+ save model remaining alive within 1" of an enemy monster hero to actually attempt the coup de grace is not high!
Am I correct that it's effectively D3 mortal wounds with three key differences:
- No ward saves allowed (or damage caps).
- If the model isn't or can't be killed (not enough wounds allocated yet) it does nothing.
- It triggers instant kill protection, but this is very rare anyway.
A smaller difference would also be that it doesn't interact with anything that requires you do wounds; e.g. Depravity Points.
I like it - it's different than just D3 mortal wounds at the end of the combat phase, though still reletively similar in function. It's probably weaker than just a straight D3 MWs at the end of the phase as the MWs will likely always do something whereas this may not, but I prefer this as it's a cool way around just doing more MWs.
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2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:
It wasn't announced but the writing was largely on the wall. In the last big survey GW did they asked the question "do you find the painting guide on the back of boxes/instructions useful" or something along those lines and the general social media consensus was most people just didn't use them. The painting guide in battletomes are actually pretty decent now, plus you've White Dwarf and GW's YouTube channel. The citadel colour site (and app) does need a bit of love in truth as I don't think it really adds anything you can't get from elsewhere.
I think this is an interesting point to bring up - at the moment I don't use the painting guides on the back of the box, so I would have probably answered with "no, I don't find them useful".
However, when starting the hobby, I did use them a lot - it might just be that newer players who do find the back painting instructions useful weren't into the game enough to know about the poll.
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2 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:
Interestingly, it looks like ethereal has stayed the same - not that this is necessarily bad, just not interactive with All Out Defence and Moment of Glory. But they may have their own command abilities and heroic actions to compensate.
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I wonder if the 'matched play' part might be referring to updates to some armies like Broken Realms - even though those updates can be for every style of play, they do involve matched.
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9 hours ago, azdimy said:
Why is Sigvald not a Deamon? The locus would be nice on him so that s probably why
I think, lore wise, he's just not a daemon - he's like an exhalted mortal, more like Archaon.
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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:
It is a change since 3rd, before, warscrolls were freely available. You could play the game with warscrolls and basic rules.
So they were there, but have since regressed.
While not everyone likes using the app, the warscrolls are still free on there (including for the new books); I think this is the same model as Malifaux (I don't think their cards are on their website).
Of course, this may change, though I hope it doesn't. I have a feeling the backlash from last time may have made them too nervous to fully pull the trigger yet.
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I'm really looking forward to the narrative book, especially as I'm playing a Path to Glory game in Ghur. One of my big hopes is that they blend Anvil of Apotheosis and P2G together so that you can use renown to upgrade Anvil heroes (with more Anvil points - even something as simple as "each 5 renown is worth 1 Anvil Point").
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I actually really like the rule that lets the ghosts shoot through walls - I've always preferred flurry rules, rather than mortal wounds/pluses to hit/pluses to wound/rerolling etc and these seem to be a good compromise, giving a useful benefit without it being samey.
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9 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:
Ultimately, we're overcosted and under-synergized. We were clearly designed for 2.0, when low rend mattered and we had 6" pile-ins from the seeker cavalcade. All that's left is unreliably effective summoning for mediocre units, in an army that doesn't start with enough on the board to create enough momentum press the advantage.
Unfortunately so - it's a shame that they focused so much on summoning to the detriment of other parts of the army, leaving it feeling quite bland and very hard to balance for.
There are good points of the army, but the summoning caused a good chunk of issues for the designers:
- If units are cheap and decent, and the more decent units you have the more you summon, then summoning can get out of hand quickly. Thus, they need to artificially inflate the points, which doesn't feel good for anyone.
- They may feel restricted on the power of the summoned warscrolls, not wanting anyone to get something amazing for free.
- Every mechanic in the army has to account for summoning, ensuring it doesn't break it, and thus often leading to over-balance and lack of synergy.
For players, summoning causes other issues:
- You have to buy more than other armies, and things like a KoS are expensive.
- A lot of people only like the mortals, but daemons are manditory to play with. Imagine if Iron Jawz allegiance ability was focused around summoning Bonesplittaz - they're both orks in the same book, but they look so different that fans of one may not like the other.
- It's hard to transport the army - not only do you need to bring 2000 points, you probably need another 1000 at least for summoning if you want to take full advantage of it.
- Playstyles often have to play to maximise summoning, which isn't always a bad thing, but it can lead to samey games.
The more I think about it, the more I'd like summoning to be a small or optional add on and for the army to just function on its own without being pigeonholed to bringing certain models. Especially as summoning isn't particularly tied to Slaanesh's lore moreso than any other Chaos God. I spoke a while ago about why summoning became so prevalent, but I hope they choose to build passed it next time.
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26 minutes ago, novakai said:
know that there was a recent controversy with the AoS meta watch article and the Warcom taking out citation that would have acknowledge work. But I doubt he make a rumor to spite GW for it
I don't think he'd spite GW or anything like that, but rather, if he feels like GW will ignore AoS, he'll say as such.
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30 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:
Shalaxi is just awful though, supposed to be a killer of Bloodthirsters yet with only 1 attack on the spear is utterly unable to actually do that in the game with any degree of consistency.
Shalaxi could really take a thing or two from the Beast Skewer Killabow where it does damage based on the enemy's wounds. Not necessarily the exact same rule, but something that means that one attack is always a brutal one.
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21 minutes ago, Gnawdwell said:
Ok, found the bit where Rob talks about aos releases for the rest of the year and it's honestly just a bit of controversial guesswork and him saying the "rumor" is.....
Wouldn't put too much stock in it, and I would be absolutely shocked if there are no new aos releases for second half of the year.
Nothing against Rob, but while he can be very helpful and an active member of the community, he does come across as overly cynical in some cases. Not that it doesn't make sense sometimes, but when he comes out with a rumour that AoS is getting nothing for a year, I do wonder if this is just him trying to stir controversy because he's dissatisfied with the game.
Perhaps "stir controversy" is too harsh, but in conversations I've had with him, he does prefer to keep pessimistic.
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8 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:
No releases
That'd be very disappointing if true. It would definitely feel as if AoS was truly on the backburner.
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8 minutes ago, Lucentia said:
Whilst we're wishlisting I'd love to see better access to the triple tap 6s from the battle trait, right now only daemonettes can realistically use then, and on their weak profile it only really pushes them up to 'okay.'
I'd like that as well - I think that it potentially could be a bonus given from the hosts. Currently, hosts give you extra ways to get depravity, which is fine but not super exciting.
I'd like it if it was something like (imagine it's worded better):
Invaders: Units wholly within your opponent's table half and wholly within 12" of one of your generals treat hit rolls of 6 in melee as 3 hits rather than 2".
Pretenders: Units wholly within 12" of your general treat hit rolls of 6 in melee as 3 hits rather than 2. In addition, before you allocate a wound or mortal wound to your general, if a friendly Slaanesh Pretenders unit is within 3" of your general, you can roll a dice. On a 1-2, the wound or mortal wound is allocated to your general as normal. On a 3+, you can allocate the wound or mortal wound to the friendly Slaanesh Pretenders unit within 3" instead.
Godseekers: Units that made a charge move this turn may treat hit rolls of 6 in melee as 3 hits rather than 2.
Pretenders gets the biggest buff here, but to be honest, I think it needs it. The other two give benefits to the rest of your army, but Pretenders just means you rely on, at best, a Keeper of Secrets surviving with some middling command traits and artifacts.
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8 minutes ago, Jaskier said:
The lack of Rend -2 or better across the army is a big problem, especially as we can't really splurge mortal wounds like other armies can.
I hope that, if Slaangors get a rewrite, they give them -2 rend and 2 damage. That on its own would make me consider taking them - maybe a few units for tin opening properties.
Now I've thought about Slaangors, the question of "why was the warscroll written to be this poor" comes back...
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3 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
No, I have them factored in. The damage is just lower because it's only 5 models.
Everyone else only gets what's on their warscrolls, though, so no +1s or extra attacks from outside sources (even though they would realistically probably have them).
Oh yeah, that would make sense! I think I've just defaulted to 10 because I never use five - oops!
Edit: With this in mind, I don't think the rend would be too bad - like I said, I mind-blanked when doing the stats and just included 10 as if that were normal numbers, so it's not quite as bad as I thought it was.
I'm hoping we see a White Dwarf soon. I'd almost like to wait on a book, if only because I'd like the maximum amount of feedback and testing to go into the next book.
It does look like most of them are proportional to their armies, with Khorne being the exception (maybe Slaves to Darkness too, but they didn't really need much help - they have some bad warscrolls, but their allegiance abilities are mostly fine if not a bit restrictive).
AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion
in Hedonites of Slaanesh
Posted
Does anyone have an estimate on when these White Dwarf entries are written? I know the criticism with the GHB and some books is that they're written so far in advance that they don't touch on as much as they should. I would hope White Dwarf has a quicker turnaround.