[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Ok seeing the points I have the following opinions (assuming the new warclans book doesn't come out with 3.0)

Ardboys once again become the shizz. They went DOWN by 5 points and are battleline at 5 models, super efficient.

Brutes are once again useless, are boys are just better with that price split. As is the footboss.

GGs are still solid with only a 10 point increase. Mks/Big G are about the same as before relatively.

Warchanter 10point increase is expected tbh.

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Gordrakk (580)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 1965 / 2000
 

So so tempting...

EDIT:

Or This

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)

Battalions
Battle Regiment
Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000

3 Drops...not terrible 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

3 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Are we taking bets on Frenzy of Violence being turned into a CA in the future?

Please god no...

I could see them turning the warbeats into CAs though rather than a 4+ trigger.

[AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion]

18 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

the CP generation command trait has always been iffy, Loonskin is often more reliable anyways, and it also buffs your durability.
The mortal wound ward was useful for the Hag since her other artifact options were limited, but the new generic artifact is definitely better. I'll probably end up skipping the subfaction and running a troggboss with loonskin and a hag with the generic ward artifact if nothing else changes.

Imo the troggboss with grip gets a huge boost with the new coherency rules. Even more so when you consider that +1 save is now so much easier to get for a lot of factions.

The new stormcast look very smushable!

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

42 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Also worth nothing their true main competition, Goregruntas, are hobbled at 6 models by the coherency rules so internally that's also a win for Brutes since they'll be the most efficient hammer blob in IJ.

It is worth noting however that units of 3 GGs will count as 6 models for objective purposes which is a pretty huge boost for them.

As it stands at the moment ardboys look to be the big losers, especially with heroic recovery pushing bravery increases up in value.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

58 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Then they should rewrite it to not be so broken instead of just squat'ing it and throwing the model people have paid for out with the bathwater.

It still functions as a small terrain piece since that's what it was originally sold as 😋 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

I like the idea, but not being able to use Mighty Destroyers more than once per hero phase kind of killed the fun of double-cabbage lists.

Double monster trigger is really nice and they are still a huge threat. Heroic actions are also amazing.

I'd use them for different roles with one being hyper aggressive and the other playing more defensively. I've always favoured a control by threats and high pressure type game and a damage based mawkrusha slamming into you is just as scary as it always was. Especially now that it's pretty easy to get them to a 2+ save. Add in the reduced board size and fact tjey coubt for 5 on objectives suddenly they are pretty damn terrifying.

Mystic shield, +1 damage, mighty destroyers, normal move, reroll charge if failed. That's ~31" threat range on a 40" board for a model with 8 attacks at 2+/3+/-3/3 and 2+/3+/-2/4 who also has a native 2+ save and -1 to hit.

As far as "deal with it" moves go that's pretty much the top end right there.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

37 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

For double Cabbage running Gordrakk + MBoMK is probably a good option depending on points, and you're only increasing your list to 2-drops if you're trying to minimize them.
One battle regiment with Gordrakk + 2 troops and the second with MBoMK and 2 troops, and then that gives you room for up to 6 more troops and 4 more foot heroes while staying 2 drop.

That's why I'd potentially go Big G, is if I wanted the drops to be lower. The previous list would be for the double CP+Enhancement though.

EDIT: Honestly though I wouldn't bother for low drops with a double cabbage list. If they give you first turn you bum rush with the damage cabbage while trying to kill stuff, then blow finest hour on theirs.

If they take first turn you're fine anyway. It's the big power of Ironsunz.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Gordrakk can't take mount traits anymore, but otherwise yeah things don't look to bad for Ironjawz.

One bash forward two smashes back.

Personally I was contemplating something like this

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (260)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (130)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (130)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Malevolent Moon (40)

Total: 1880 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 180 / 400
Wounds: 110
 

The fungoids there because flying brutes is still one of the greatest things I can think of and Ghostmist is super nice, not to mention Mystic Shield on the Sunblessed cabbage is one of the best things I can imagine. using all out defence it has a 2+ save vs -2 rend which is nuts. 

I have to admit though I've always had a thing for double cabbage lists 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Now that I've had some time to think on the AoS3 core rules I thought I'd give a run down of my thoughts.

Basic Stuff

• Mass CP's is amazing for Ironjawz, we have a bunch of good abilities with solid targets for them.
• The inability to use a single CA more than once is horrible for IJ, means no multiple Mighty Destroyers etc.
• Smashing and Bashing just went through the roof in value, Lots of small units means that combat priority is now way more important. Plus lots of small units makes it that much easier to trigger.
• Unit champions can now issue CA's on their own units. Considering every unit we have has a champion that's unreal.
• Rally is stupidly good if it goes off on a key unit, we should probably be using this every turn due to the quality of every model we have.
• The battalions are a little awkward for us. The best one require 3 heroes which is very limiting.
• All-out defence is so so so good.

"Enhancements"

• Limited access to these is painful.
• Brutish Cunning dropped in value quite hard.
• Armour of Gork is now unusable due to not stacking with Rip-tooth fist. (not that it was ever good)
• The Boss Skewer weirdly got better because it gives your hero +1 to it's heroic recovery..?
• Having extra mount traits and artefacts competing for limited enhancement slots now is painful for double MK lists.
• The spell lore enhancement is so so good if you're running a lot of wizards. We've always been limited by the mandatory nature of Hand of Gork.
• Ironclad is really mediocre due to all out-defence existing.

Sub-Factions

• All 3 of the Clans became better far better, I'd almost say that having any clan is now strictly better than no clan.
• Each of the CA's became way more usable and far more impactful due to overabundance of CP's.
• Sunblessed Armour is amazing now that all-out defence is a thing. Means a 2+ save is easily a thing for your Megaboss.
• Da Choppas is now awesome. Smaller boards means Vandal Hordes comes into play much faster.
• Rabble Rouser helps counteract having more small units and the CA abundancy makes it way more usable.
• Checked out go the same buff that The Boss Skewer did. Having Bravery 10 for Heroic Recovery would be damn nice.

Units

• Big G got a pretty large buff. Voice of Gork has always been damn good.
• Limited enhancements actually helps him a lot. Not having access to a Traits or Artefacts is no longer a real downside.
• There's a solid argument to be made for taking Big G as your MK and a different hero as your general as the only thing he needs is the mount trait.
• Universal Enhancements also help because you can now take your warchanter as your general and not be punished.
• GG's now count as 2 models for the sake of objectives!

Overall I'm actually happier with the new rules than I was when I started this. We get a lot of benefit from a couple of different things and the CA flood is amazing. All the extra CP's combined with Heroic Actions and Monster abilities are really solid while the boosts to the subfactions are super nice. Big G is probably the main winner just due to being unique.

Just hoping the points changes aren't super unreasonable. I'm really looking forward to using more double MK lists!

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

Just now, PJetski said:

Yes, since it changes the Characteristic

That's what I thought /facepalm

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

Question.

A Megaboss on Foot has 7 wounds. They also have strength from victory which causes them to gain a wound at the end of the combat phase if they killed one or more models.

Does this mean if a Megaboss gains 3 stacks from Strength from Victory, thus now having a wound characteristic of 10, suddenly loses the look out sir bonus?

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

6 hours ago, Dracan said:

 

Ooph I missed that the same CA couldn't be used twice. That's a massive nerd for ironjawz compared to big Waaagh!

[AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Itd be nice for us but I dont think they really need it. Everyone is going to be running low enough number that 6 rockguts shouldnt have issues shifting.

Also the new pile in rules combined with the rockguts attack range is super sweet for them. Makes coherency meaningless to 6 rockguts.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

38 minutes ago, HostilSpike said:

Flaming Weapon buffs the caster's weapon it's not a targeted buff

Take it on an MK with Metal rippers. 8 attacks, damage 4, rend 3...

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

But it does say that, though. In the last sentence of your snippet.

Nope what it says is it cannot be further from it's starting location than it's move. Hence why I specified an oval doing a move around a unit, specifically something which can't fly.

In this case say you have a move of 18" and the path moves around a unit due to the orientation the oval itself is rotated at the end. Now because you've moved in an arc, your whole base is within 18" despite the fact that a part of the base has, in doing so, moved ever so slightly further than it's move distance.

As I said it's splitting hairs and I'd not even bother trying it in a tournament however rules as written the technicality exists...

2 hours ago, TheCovenLord said:

Not really that huge if you take into account new coherency rules. It seems like its mostly to keep the combat doable rather than a nightmare under the old nearest model rule.

It's massive because some of the old tricks you could do which prevented an opponent moving around in combat no longer work. An example being that the 3 points of contact which would prevent an oval from moving no longer works, as long as the model is in base to base with a single model from the enemy unit it is "as close" to the unit as it started.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

That's pretty huge, nearest enemy unit not model. Doesn't say what happens if 2 units are equally close though.

Technically doesn't specify that part of the models base can't move more than it's move distance.

If you have an oval base, move around a unit and end up behind it, you could then pivot so that one of the "oval" bits is moved further than technically allowed but is not further than it's move distance than it started in. Real semantics there but eh, could potentially be funny.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

29 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Does this mean curse and exploding hits are incompatible?

Coming from nurgle which has quite a bit of to hit 6 shenanigans and there being multiple triggers this is quite sad.

But sensing some urgency from GW to make this edition the non cascading effect edition.

Interesting side effect is that a megaboss with Rip-tooth Fist should now never take the artefact which reflects mortals on a save roll of a 6 as you would have to choose between the two (they are the same effect).

You get CPs for your general being on the field in your OPPONENTS turn. That's pretty fricking huge right there. Puts you up to ~3/4 CP's a round.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

58 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Unfortunately as written that means if I have a defensive effect (players must reroll sixes to hit for example) and my opponent has an offensive effect (mortal wounds on a 6 for example) then my defensive effect will never work. The player rolling just gets to ignore my effect because they have their own bonus and pick their triggered effect instead of mine. Absolutely magical writing on GW's part.

In that example your defensive effect triggers before the roll is finished. It's a reroll not an effect that triggers on a 6. 

Your defensive triggers DURING the roll where as the mortals triggers based on the outcome of the roll. Same way that reroll 1s doesn't interfere with anything which triggers when a 1 is rolled.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

45 minutes ago, Aturox said:

Would be an odd number though. You basically wouldnt be able to play the other 5 models if you dont purchase two boxes.. 

They might leave it at 5 and make them battleline at 5, they used to be 10 before the warclans book dropped.

@Fred1245 @Zappgrot

What will probably happen is people will get a vague idea of what the correct formation looks like then do then "This is what I'm trying to do" like we do with teleport etc. Atm.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

2 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

As someone with a ton of chaos warriors you bet I will waste my points on ineffective units, and I have lots of fun trying to not get them smashed. I am not a big fan of the change in unit size but only because of the way I have already built my units 2x5 with dual weapons and 1x20 sword and shield. But I think having the mimimum unit size matching the models being sold is a great idea. I am concerned what that will mean for Warcry models though as they were initially sold in the size of a unit but the box got doubled upon later releases. 

Same with a number of Stormcast units that initially started in groups of 5 for start collecting boxes and starter sets but sell 10 in their individual boxes. 

It will be interesting to see what they do with ardboys being in boxes of 15. I imagine they will up the min size to 10 and increase the unit cost to ~220

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

42 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

Some people said they same stuff in the run up to 9th and it wasn't really true then either.

Fact is, the people who run events and most of the people who play at events are absolutely not going to be willing to move off of 2000pts so you can fit an extra Gargant or whatever.

We'll take the blissful first few months of more people finishing their games on time before point drops inevitably creep everything back up.

I've not had a problem with finishing games at tournaments for ages, if anything the points cost increase would be to counteract how much longer the new rules are going to add to the time required. The coherency rules especially are going to be a real time consumer until we get some specialised movement trays for them...

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

1 hour ago, JonnyTheKing said:

I don’t see it, saw the same conversations in the 40K crowd when 9th was getting shown off and nobody did it, turns out the increase in points doesn’t change too much and actually helps players stay in the 2 hour limit at tournies

Tournament games are 2:30? It depends on how severe the points increase is and the actual impact it has on list building. It's would be equivalent to building a 1750 list at the moment which is highly restrictive for some armies and essentially forces standardisation of lists on those armies.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

If stuff really is going up ~15% we might see some tournaments transition to 2.5k as the base size. It would even bring the board size up to ~ the current standard.

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I would expect a mention of a point cost somewhere on the leaked battalion page if they were not free. I think odds are good that they don't cost any points.

Oh dear God.

Welp my army now has 2 vanguard for every list...

[AoS 3 New Rules Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Depends how you look at it. You certainly won't make good use out of Unleash Hell and All-Out attack if you bring multiple small units of ranged attackers, since you can't spam them more than once per phase.

Aye it's more to do with how ranges armies suffer less from split units due to no combat phase priority and how smaller units let you waste less shots into targets which are dead.