Malakree

There is an enormous difference between a 2+ unrendable with a 6++ and a 3+ unrendable, it's not a +3 wound difference either.

By that you mean makes Ardboys expensive objective holders Really need to see what other rules are on there, seems like the dual choppa could be in line for one of the classic dual wield abilities. EDIT: Gotta love how the megaboss STILL only has -1 rend. It's just blows my mind, here's hoping the riptooth puts him back to a 3+ save because if it's at a 4+ with no ward save then those 3 extra wounds are functionally meaningless... Fists should be -3 rend, the glaive made -2 to match the brutes and the choppa+riptooth left at -1 but improves his save to 3+ (not +1 to save). That way the cabbage would have realistic rend and a choice between offence and defence.

It's both the special and the 2" ranged weapon. Holy gods those 2" range brutes are unbelievably good now. EDIT: Also you aren't supposed to post leaks on this forum.

I would personally say that prior to the new book Big Waaagh! is just better purely due to combination of Brutish Cunning (so you get your 1 mighty destroyers for free anyway) and the 6++ being ridiculously important at the moment. Outside of that Big Waaagh! has the general throughput advantage but the Ironjawz tricks bag is extensive, especially when you add in the clans. That said it's basically meaningless at this point with the new book coming out. As I said if the 6++ goes or IJ get access to it aswell then the field is wide open and I'd even say that for lists which are more "pure" then IJ is better.

You get the 6++ turn 1 and the rest of them turn 2. That's how any Big Waaagh lists should be designed. I often won't waaagh with BW, there's no need and the bonus waaagh points get sunk into casts/unbinds instead. Against some armies the +2 to unbind is the only way you'll stop key casts. 2x Warchanter, 40 Orruks, wurrgog+wardokk. 10+d6 per round. Alphastrikes are essentially none existent at the moment and are so easy to stop with good deployment so it's super rare your support characters get nuked. Since most turn 1s are both players shrugging at each other you end up with so many spare cp's round 1 it's ridiculous. He was bad before, with the reduced board size he's even worse. Problem is his warscroll is so awful that you're paying 120 points for a blank warscroll which won't get the HoG off most of the time (CV7 vs all the heavy wizards out there atm). Even in Big Waaagh where it's much easier to get it off it the playstyle is slower and doesn't even want the turn 1 alphastrike. Combine with how small the boards are, the objectives being closer together and heroic willpower you're realistically not getting off at any point it matters. Hopefully the new book actually fixes his warscroll rather than it being a bad version of the wardokk which costs 35 points more...

I found that I was only fighting with 2 units a turn and most (due to WC buffs). Compared to Smashing and Bashing the 6+ ward was basically mandatory while the +1/+1 makes your units so much more effective and reliable. I've heard a rumour we might lose the 6+ ward in which case I'd seriously consider going back to straight IJ unless I'm running a proper IJ/Kruel combo list.

There's 2 big tactics you can use with this. Charge a unit then retreat, you are no longer within 3" so the enemy unit cannot pile in and attack until your own unit has already done so. You're essentially removing that combat from the activation priority. The other is to charge a unit then hop over it so you are now in a gap in the enemy back line. You then pile in and attack onto a high priority target having bypassed the enemy screen. This is way harder now you can't just add +6" to the retreat using a run as it makes the move a lot tighter.

To be fair the thing we really need is updated warscrolls rather than rules. The weirdnob is a great example of something which is to expensive to be a basic magic include but is to cheap to actually bring magical power to the table. Green puke is shockingly bad, it's got 1 cast and the free green puke requires a double reinforced 285 point unit. If it was given 2 casts or had it's warscroll spell/ability improved with a bump to 150-170 it suddenly becomes more than just a 120point hand of gork tax. The same is true of a bunch of our warscrolls.

It's not new or changed at all.

If it gets going and the opponent doesn't have tools to deal with it then the MK will go nuts. The tools do exist and there are a bunch more which can deal with it if used properly, this really comes down to judging your friends and the quality of their armies/play. Much in the same way anyone playing a casual game against lower skilled players shouldn't be taking gotrek. If we're wish listing All "Ironjawz" (ie. brutes and ggs) to go to a 3+ save, from the lore perspective Ardboys aren't actually "Ironjawz". That or give them all reduce rend by 1. a 6++ ward save built into the book as a whole, it's basically mandatory for any form of elite army to compete properly now. Increase the bravery of everything but Ardboys/GG's by 1. Ironjawz Waaagh! to be board wide. Warbeats to automatically work rather than a 4+. Maybe make fixin beat 1-3 heal 1, 4+ heal d3. A bunch of our redundant hit modifiers to be reworked into useable stuff, thinking Ironjawz Waaagh going back to a MB warscroll thing would be fine with 3.0. Return of Foot of Gork. Would be such an amazing invocation. Reintergrate the MK buffs which were stripped out to make traits and give us real options. Really annoys me that they took our 4+ impact hits, nerfed it to 5+ then said "here's an amazing mount trait that makes it 4+".... Then for real wishlisting Swap the Brute +1 to hit vs stuff with 4+ wounds to something which makes them actually scary. "If this unit makes an attack against a unit with 4+ wounds then that unit cannot make wards against any damage inflicted. If that unit has has 10+ wounds then increase the rend characteristic by 1." Megaboss weapons increased to rend 2. I could probably go on but we're running into brain wracking territory and true wish listing.

Every 5 models should be 1 drummer, 1 banner/icon, 2 shield orruks, 1 normal orruk. When you play them on the table every icon is actually just a banner with a different aesthetic, icons are bad atm. Subject to change as of the new book later this month.

I found the extra bodies are more useful than the second MK . The endless spell was awesome, the healing is solid but with good positioning you can use it to really shaft charges etc. Curse was a "maybe this will work" spoiler it didn't, I'd just take heal next time. I'd probably drop the madcap, second warlord and the arcane tome. Then use the spare points to swap 5 Ardboys to 3GG's with 5 points spare. Lose 2 unbinds but honestly anybody it would matter against is running stupid shenanigans which an unbuffed unbind is normally worthless against. Would then be a choice between hunters/hunters vs battle regiment.

@Arkahn @Boggler Played Gloomspite, which was a joke. Morathi+Gotrek+15 snakes which I got a bit lucky in, DoT which I made a few minor mistakes and he was....liberal with his movement, then I faced Nagash, got a little lucky but forgot about redeploy and it cost me the game.

Went to London open last weekend with Big Waaagh! It's better than pure ironjawz, the 6++ and 2+/2+ reliability just make everything so much stronger. Not to mention that the wurrgog/wardokk makes the ironjawz wizards into a joke. I'd say that 10 is the sweet spot for ironjawz infantry. It's not so large as to be unwieldy but still represents a large threat to even thinks above it's points value. Also fast un on the cabbage is great.

Well I was also talking about the new book but yeah on looking there isn't a current rule to that effect I can find.

Lumineth, Tzeentch, Seraphon, Snakes of Khaine, Skaven, anything with Gotrek. Gotrek walks into the middle of the board and that's it. With heroic recovery he easily has 14/15 wounds in a game which makes him basically impossible to kill without spamming a huge amount of single damage attacks.

Personally I feel like Ironjawz has all the same problems it had before AoS3 and suffers against all the same stuff it did. After 2 one day events I'd say that Big Waaagh! is just better, the 6+ ward is just so crucial vs any good army. We're also so dependent on the Warchanter +1 to actually output damage that anything which doesn't have it feels underwhelming. The footboss wizard was cool but again has the same issues as an unbuffed weirdnob when trying to use Hand of Gork. I like him I just wouldn't take HoG on him (I don't think we need it) and instead grab something like levitate. Also ran into teclis and a slann so successfully cast 1 spell in 3 games, which was an irrelevant lifeswarm in the last game where I rolled the poor guy with a turn 1/2 double. Still don't like Brutes but they hit the 10 man sweet spot hard for having multiple reinforced units which aren't awful. On the other hand units of 15 Ardboys are good but so unwieldy. I have no desire to spend 10mins optimizing a unit of 15 ardboys to get maximum attacks. Mawkrushas feel depressingly underwhelming for 500 points, they are either glass cannons or super tanky pillows and Gotrek being at 435 makes a mockery of them. Honestly I'm struggling with lists at the moment and need to give it some more thought. Main issue I'm having is lack of models....

Quick point, the +1 hit/wound is melee weapons only. You can apply more than +1 to modifiers you just can't apply more than +1 total to the final dice roll. So if you have +1 and your opponent applies -1 you can add another +1 to cancel his out negative out. As a side note I'm going to a 1 day event tomorrow and I've suddenly discovered the perfect use for a Footboss. Arcane tome + footboss...It's a weirdnob shaman but with 7 wounds a 3 up save and is good in combat! Not to mention hand of gork fixes all the footbosses horrific mobility problems and actually wants to keep up with the MK making the footboss a great caster to maintain the Emerald Lifeswarm. This is the greatest thing since Gorkamorka punched Sigmar!

Since the Kruleboyz have their current MW works in big waaagh! I kinda hope they make Big Waaagh! the only faction but that each of Jawz/Splitters/Krule get extra bonuses related to their keyword the same way as the Gloomspite. Smashing and Bashing for example would work exactly the same in Big Waaagh! as Ironjawz, you can still only activate other Ironjawz units so the restriction is how diverse your force is rather than an allegiance. Then you add in subfactions like Ironsunz which lockout the other allegiances, so if you pick Ironsunz you then become an old-school "Ironjawz" army.

If you aren't using Ardboys then the Krushas are a good alternative around that price point for more defensive/zone control type roles that would normally be 5 man ardboys. As to Rippa's, they are a fast and cheap unit which is always really useful to have to threaten exactly the kind of defence I listed above, small points controlling units which aren't super dangerous. In addition they have a ranged weapon, which is always a benefit, not irrelevant melee damage especially from the mounts. Most important though is the 6" pile in, it means you can run and still pile in/attack, don't have to charge which stops the stand and shoot but it also means you ALWAYS get to activate them before the opponent. For 70 points their only weakness is the drastically low wounds making them super fragile.

It makes them a wizard. The free spell lore enhancement then let's them take a spell. It's then both an Ironjawz and a Wizard so is able to take from the lore of the weird.

What are people's thoughts on a warchanter with arcane tome. If you just want a wizard for hand of gork the lore is usable by any ironjawz wizard. Seems like a solid option?

Plus they aren't battleline.

@Arkahn those 45 points of float are painful. Could you swap 5 ardboys for some sort of bonesplitterz? Savage orruks or boarboys would give more wounds/coverage and spend the points. Boarboys especially would give you some great mobility/screening options given that the warchanters are both spoken for.

I've got a few things I want to try out. Didn't really like the double MK. Want to try 15/15 ardboys and I'm also thinking about running a block of 30 gutripperz with a personal killaboss in big Waaagh! That should be gross with rally and gives a massive block the opponent has to actually wipe out. EDIT: I'm also seriously thinking that an emerald lifeswarm to sit the mawkrusha might be close to mandatory now. D3 heal every hero phase and using it to block some envelops seems so good on paper.