Malakree

Screen. That's it. You put a basic screen up and the IJ Alphastrike dies on it's ******. A line of 40 skeletons 3" ahead of the rest of your army so that he wipes them out and can't pile in past the line. You then use Magic and the fact he's crippled in his own turn to neuter his army, spend a CP to bring your skeles back, bog him down in never ending combats and grind him into dust. With SCE and Deepkin you can set the core parts of the army up off the table then bring them on to snipe his key bits. DoK, Idoneth, SCE, LoN should all have a pretty solid win rate against the list you are describing if they are built properly. Sounds like it's mostly just poor deployment.

The GG's are fine in the weirdfist, you just don't want blocks of 6 in it. Swap to 6x3 with 3x3 in the Weirdfist, gives approximately what you are after while allowing the bigger unit to skirmish around the map next to your cabbage. In my head I always see the army being split into multiple parts, the weirdfist portion is purely stationary and the job of every model in it is to form a 10" buffer zone around the Weirdnob. The rest of you army then has to be highly mobile in order to compensate for the huge wad of points you have which is tied up and is conceptualised as smaller cavalry blocks which can operate more independently. When you look at it like this you can probably see why I'm not so keen on the Rogue Idol, it also goes into the Weirdfist portion which is just concentrating my army even more seriously. Ironnically at 2.5k you can actually spare the 400 to make it even more vicious. The ideal Weirdnob block would actually be 10x10x10x10x10 all Ardboys with shields. This gives you the most bodies, wounds and meat for that single block, it's easily the equivalent of 80 skeles if you can get it on an objective before you enter siege mode. Given you don't have a 2nd cabbage I'd look at something like this. Or if you have the GG's ****** you are correct, so used to seeing her run in GA:Destro. Good catch.

So rogue idol definitely makes the weirdnob far more reliable, the difference between 8+ and 7+ is huge. If you are going with that list I would split one of the units of ggs so you are 10x10x10x3x3 as the weirdfist acts as a single more stationary block. You don't want 6 ggs tied up with it when 3 is good enough. Depending on if you have the points, I didn't, and models I would seriously consider swapping your fist ggs for 2" range brutes. The extra threat/models is very nice. Biggest thing for me is ensuring that you aren't completely locked into one big expensive block. It's why I wanted the double cabbage rather than the idol. You have a massive anvil which is designed to turtle on an objective, what's lacking there is the mobility aspect. If you want to use the hag I'd say she needs thermalrider cloak, at that point daubing or ignix scales on the cabbage is obv.

Yep it's +2, getting the Arcane terrain is obviously huge but it's alright even without. It's why game 3 the green puke did the majority of the work, I wasn't getting the continual stomps. Ironically being entirely in terrain with a Balewind gives the weirdnob a 3+ save and is at -1 to hit from shooting, combine with the massive bubble wrap and the only game he died he was the last model in my entire army to die. The balewind is definitely a key part of the build as having 2 spells a turn makes a huge difference. As to the army being stationary, obviously the weirdfist portion is, use the 30 ardboys to bubble wrap him and that's their entire job the whole game. Generally I had the GG's just tagged in at 10" and they were my variable unit. Either staying with the block or pushing up to support the cabbages, it's why I went with 3x3 rather than a 4th unit of Ardboys. On the other hand the cabbage portion of the list was definitely not stationary. While I didn't use them optimally the broader strategy is definitely right. Having them both with an artefact worked exactly how I wanted it to, they have the speed and punch which the rest of our army doesn't. Honestly I suspect it's a similar win rate to a good Bloodtoofs list, which is to say that IJ are bad atm and we are primarily out to steal wins. Whether you do that with Aetherquartz or Foot of Gork is much of a muchness. I enjoyed the list way more, that's my takeaway and the big thing I want to stress. Right now if you are playing IJ and want a hyper competitive version, it's probably got Sequitors or Eels in the list. What I'm doing is putting out fun lists which you can 3/5 with or even 4/5 if you get lucky and play amazingly.

If it's not specified its the hero phase. You use it in the hero phase then the effect happens at the start of the combat phase. You're correct.

Yes purely for fun if nothing else. After playing with the bloodtoofs at b&g I decided that I wanted lists I could enjoy, part of that is from now on I'm putting 2 monsters in every army. Other than that the list essentially runs as 3 blocks, which you no doubt saw if you watched the stream. In that regard the cabbages are essentially my cavalry units. Having 2 means that that even though one invariably is killed the other is left doing naughty things. Also being 3 drops is really nice, except for the 1 drop sylvaneth I got to take first turn every game. With proper deployment it gives me a good chance of removing something key turn 1. In game 5 I faced 4 of the stormcast heroes with bows. 3 of them died in my turn 1 before they could fire their started arrows. Suddenly the cabbages were both in his face and impossible to deal with while the weirdnob only took 1 wound the entire game. Turn 2 I did ~50 mortals. Turn 1 I did 18 to Arkhan, was super nice.

So just played IJ at chrimbobo, got 3/5 which I'm happy with. Every game I won I tabled my opponent. The list is WAY more fun that the stupid aetherquartz shenanigans and has the ability to go nuts and rekt people. I would definitely recommend giving it a try. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: UlguLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Miasmatic Blade Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Battleline10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron ChoppasBattalionsWeirdfist (180)Endless SpellsBalewind Vortex (40)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 Game 1 they stuck me on the tv vs 1 drop sylvaneth. I was mentally checked out for most of it, forgetting basic stuff and really not in a fit state. Was vs 1drop sylvaneth and he won every crucial roll which was just the nail in the coffin. Game 2 was against grand host of nagash. Went first, deleted Arkhan with foot. Got priority turn 2 and killed every one of his heroes and half his big skele unit with foot. Game 3 faced chaos dorfs, sniped his two smiths dropping the range of all his arti by 6" preceded to green puke over his army continually for a ton of mortals till he conceded end of turn 3 with basically nothing left. Game 4 was mixed order, completely buggered my deployment which meant no spells for turn 1/2 and didnt even try to win on objectives. Game 5 was vs stormcast. Cored his army turn 1, by his turn 2 he had basically nothing left. Didn't bother taking secondaries for the 3 games I won, and tabled, so should have had 4/5 which would have put me 18th, as it was I finished 25th. So much more fun than bloodtoofs and the weirdnob with average 36/42" threat range on the foot just lets you delete key problems before they can do anything.

@Ravinsild If you wanted something more janky, and less grindy, then you could potentially drop the battalion altogether or only go Ironfist. The 9 GG's are going to be one of the most important parts here as they can be used to pin your opponent and/or screen for drops. Realistically this is the way we go now, you either need some funky stuff or at least 140 wounds on the board.

Gildenbane deactivates all enemy artefacts while they are within 3" of the hero. It's great against things like Doppelganger Cloak and Ethereal Amulet.

The big thing is that we can't win fights anymore. Against things like death our units don't do the damage to stop them just grinding us down. Combine that with our units being generally overcosted and the traditional lists suffer. The Ardfist on the other hand just puts a ton of wounds on the board then fights for objectives. You can also do some janky stuff with the summons if you position your warchanter correctly. Take something like this and watch as your opponent tries to grind his way through it. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersOrruk Megaboss (140)- General- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Ignax's Scales Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)Battleline30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)- 29x Choppa or Smasha & Shields- 1x Big Choppas20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)- 19x Choppa or Smasha & Shields- 1x Big Choppas20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)- 19x Choppa or Smasha & Shields- 1x Big Choppas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 9x Choppa or Smasha & Shields- 1x Big Choppas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 9x Choppa or Smasha & Shields- 1x Big ChoppasBattalionsArdfist (170)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 203 Basically an ironjawz variation on the mixed destruction list.

With one wizard drop them and swing for the triumph instead. Any turn you have the time to be casting them you should probably just be trying Foot of Gork instead.

@Ravinsild So I know I'm a bit odd, for a Ironjawz, in that I don't run many Brutes at all. I ended up on this as my "ideal" list for Bloodtoofs. The two wizards are there for realm spells and/or mystic shield. Some battleplans specify a "wizard or hero with an artefact of power" and this list gives me 5! I found the 1 drop to be utterly irrelevant. Difference between 1 and 3 is meaningless. Aetherquartz is mandatory if you are going for a Megabattalion IMO, it's what makes the list work. The Ardboys are there to act as an anvil and grind the opponent down while you setup the Megawaaagh! Boss Skewer is because of the prevalence of death, they have a ton of stuff which targets your bravery and/or debuffs it. Cabbage is tooled up to live until the Megawaaagh! turn. I think the list works and is probably a 3/5 or 4/5 if you are very good, that said it's tricky to get the most out of and punishes you for mistakes hard. It's also horrible to play with/against, you spend the whole game setting up for one super turn then the game is won or lost on it and the Broach rolls. If you get no extra CP's your turn will be strong but not amazing and you will then slowly lose against all the summoning armies in the meta. If you get super lucky on the CP's you get 10+ extra attacks and your opponent gets to stand there watching while you roll hundreds of dice and delete his army. Personally I think this is the best Bloodtoofs list for me. That said it's not the strongest Ironjawz list and it's horrible to play. If you want the best Ironjawz list it's probably a Gorefist or an Ardfist.

@tom_gore he looks just like my custom Ardboy boss haha

This is the big thing that makes the footboss not awful, it lets him actually do more than just meander around the battlefield before getting bogged down in 40 skeletons.

Personally I would say it's mandatory for the cabbage, the two key parts are the Megaboss to the Cabbage and then Banner which goes ontop of the MB. That banner gets knocked so often it's unreal, having magnetised it means I just pick it up and put it back. Honestly though it and the GG's topknots are horrific for breakage potential.

One of the easiest ways to swap him is to change his weapon for one of the Mawkrusha ones, it's a little awkward but it works. Also, depending on how good you are with making bases, I have a base which is setup so my Mawkrusha Megaboss can be attached to for an extra footboss if I want. Since I have him magnatized to the mawkrusha itself I just match the magnets on the MB base so that it swaps real easy.

Was this at blood and glory? EDIT: Side note, Flesh Eater Courts came 24th at Blood and Glory.

This is all the approximately equivalent Liberator variants, I've separated them into approximate blocks of the different variations based on looking at the warscrolls and approached from a list building perspective. I actually found it really interesting. There are 4 different blocks. Block 1 is best seen as the baseline block, with the defensive and offensive variants. Blood warriors Goreglaives should be 1 per 5 rather than per 10 Block 2 is the most random and ill defined. They lack the special weapons/rules of B1 and seem to just be overcosted Block 3 is your elite block. It's actually a great counterpoint to Block 1, really shows how ridiculous sequitors are Blightkings are a high wound variaint of Block 3 Tzaangors are a stronger variant of Block 2 Savage Orruks are a weaker version of Block 2 When looking at this Sequitors are obviously undercosted while I'd say the massive regiment discounts for the rest of the stuff is probably to small. I don't know enough about the last 3 to really comment on them, they are significantly different enough that it's hard to draw direct comparisons. If forced to I'd probably end up around this. Thoughts?

Dracolines have "Reroll charges and get d3 damage on any turn you charge" At this point GG's should be "If you make an unmodified roll of 8+ on a charge roll inflict d3 mortal wounds on any unit within 1" after you complete the charge." Way more in line with the wording and modern warscroll philosophy.

To be fair goregruntas are our one unit which is well costed!

Just throwing out there that Prince vordrai does exactly this...maybe change them to 6/5/4/3/2 shots at 2+/2+/-3/1. Then add a special hero Thundertusk who has the snowball. Mournfang should be 140 inline with ggs but have a 400 for 8. I'm a fan of unwieldy units like mournfang, ggs and brutes having some nice massive regiment discounts at the point where it IS a pita to use them. Means you could have small units at 70 a model, easier to use and more mobile, or a huge unit at 50 a model but very rarely going to be fully attacking and at much greater risk of being tarpitted.

I just hate the malign sorcery book. It's like it was designed a year beforehand and not updated to more modern design concepts, 6+ 🙄 On a slightly different note, now that a few days have passed, and people who want to make suggestions have, the points changes I suggested. Allegiance: IronjawzLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (400)Orruk Megaboss (120)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (100)Orruk Warchanter (100) (till next hero phase)Battleline30 x Orruk Ardboys (400)5 x Orruk Brutes (170)5 x Orruk Brutes (170)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)BattalionsIronfist (180)Bloodtoofs (80)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Wounds: 153 This would be a legal list. Other note is I suggested 600 for 20brutes and 360 for 9ggs. Any thoughts? How beyond the pale am i.

So the issue with all of these isn't so much the artefact themselves, it's what you can do with them. Obviously. As an example, the WC SoJ bomb, probably one of the most ridiculous things in the game at the moment. It has other "less extreme" examples such as the tenebrael shard SoJ, it goes from a threat to squishy heroes which it probably won't trade equal on points with to something which can easily assassinate 400+ points of general. Jade diadem is a problem on anything which can stack heavy save buffs, just because sacrosanct is OP as sin doesn't mean that the old classic of Stardrake with save stacking wouldn't love the ****** out of this artefact. Ethereal amulet breaks a whole variety of monster heroes, it makes a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon absolutely horrific. You add on either a slow time cogs or a mystic shield. Suddenly it's a 3+ rerolling 1s (or all) save followed by a 6++, heal a wound if it kills something in the combat phase, heal d6 wounds once per game, -1 to hit. Totally not utter filth. The reason that things like Exiletorch etc. aren't used is because the Cloak is a strictly better version of them. It has a very real chance of making a hero functionally invulnerable during the combat phase, if the broach wasn't mandatory for us we would be running cabbages with this while laughing our asses off. With the Thermalrider Stonehorn, you say it makes him "playable". Take a moment to realise what this means, it means there is a character who is bad enough and expensive enough to be considered unplayable. A character which the Thermalrider cloak makes part of a top table list, better than all the other destruction options which would normally be considered better than it. -3 rend For the -3 rend I agree it's slightly tricky to see why it's a potential issue, it comes down, again, to the potential interactions with other things which exist in game. There is a huge difference, for example, between the Verminlord Doom Glaives 4 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/3 and 3+/3+/-3/3 or the Corruptors 10 attacks of 3+/3+/-/1 and 3+/3+/-3/1, a Dragon Ogor Shaggoth gain -3 rend on his 3 damage attack. Hell our own Megaboss going from rend 1 on his axe to rend 3. Frostlord Frostspear, an Ogor Tyrant weapon profile looks very different if you make everything -3 rend. A Skull taker becomes the equivalent of a mawkrushas fists for 100 points, only with RRhit/wound vs heroes, Lord of Slannesh gains -3 rend on his 4 3+/3+/-/2 attacks and can activate twice a combat phase for 140 points AND his mount still gets to attack. Shadowblade Assassin becoming a 6 attack 3+/3+/-3/d3 is suddenly terrifying for 80 points. It probably feels like I'm pluming the depths, it's because I am. That's where the broken ass stuff is going to come from, that's the stuff which is not going to be accounted for when balancing or designing. Tenebrael Shard+SoJ is the perfect example of this, you think GW were considering this or the Warchanter bomb when they designed the SoJ. Since the ideal is that every allegiance is equally playable, an unrealistic aim but one which as to be the aim, you have to consider that there are heroes with wonky weapons profiles which are designed around having minimal rend, bumping them straight to -3 makes them seriously perform beyond their points. Conclusion Is it fixable. The only artefact in the book which can't be fixed imo is the doppleganger cloak, everything else can be FaQ'd or rewritten into a more sensible item. For the -3 rend weapons that is making them increase the rend of a weapon by -1 instead, similar idea but doesn't have that potential for a massive swing. Aetherquartz Broach. At the start of your turn roll a dice, on a 3+ add a command point to your command pool. Ethereal Amulet. Failed saves can no longer be rerolled for any reason. SoJ. Unmodified rolls of a 6. Jade Diadem, Unmodified rolls of a 6. Thermalrider cloak, Grants fly. At the start of your movement phase roll a dice. On a 1 reduce your movement by 2" on a 6 increase your movement by 4" on anything else increase your movement by 2" Exile Torch etc. Once per game, with conditionals based on the str of the effect. Doppleganger Cloak. Once per game at the start of the combat phase you may make a 6" flying move as though it were the movement phase but you cannot run. All the +/- to hit/wound just need an errata which says "whenever an ability or warscroll says on a roll of a X+ it instead reads on an unmodified roll of X+" Sorry for being perhaps a bit argumentative, I do honestly enjoy this kind of a discussion and find it to be the best way to reach a fair conclusion. 😄

I mean they give access to tools which break some heroes. Thermal rider cloak stonehorn, ethereal amulet VLoZD, jade diadem frostheart Pheonix, SoJ bombs, doppelganger cloak are all ridiculous. Next you have the exiletorch, amberglaive, hypersnare seeds and arboreal stave. Four random "oops I win the game" relics. Exactly the same sort of awful that the aetherquartz broach is but stronger and less consistent. Lastly is the two -3 rend which warp the power of some heroes weapons. A example of this being the Cabbages weapons, it turns the no rend option into -3, this has game breaking potential on an overlooked heroes weapon, all hero attacks have to be designed under the knowledge they could be -3 rend.

Sunderblade, Ghyrstrike, Aboreal Stave, Hypersnare Seeds, Jade Diadem Amberglaive, Rockjaws, Beastcaller's bones, Gryph-Feather Charm Rune Blade, Crucible of Molten Silver, Chamonite Darts, Gildenbane, Argent Armour, Hydroxskin Cloak Ruby Ring, Magmadroth Blood Vials, Purefire Brazier, Exile Torch, Essence of Vulcatrix, Thermalrider Cloak, Ignax's Scales Wraithbow, Splintertooth, Ethereal Amulet, The Ragged Cloak, Goblet of Draining Miasmatic Blade, Blade of Folded Shadows, Dimensional Blade, SoJ, Spellmirror, Doppelganger Cloak, Betrayer's Crown Luminary Rod, Prism Amyntok, Aetherquartz Brooch, Lens of Refraction, Guardian's Coronet Bolded has to go, they alter the game in to much of a serious fashion to stay. Italic is all to do with yet more mortal wounds. The rest are -hit or +hit which are also bad for the game in it's current state. Specifically the amount of stuff which does extra things on a 6+ means they are bad, once the 6+ has been fazed out completely for unmodified roll of a 6 it becomes way less egregious.