Malakree

Sorry I thought that was assumed given that the discussion centred around 30 hearthguard sat in the middle of the board on 2 starstrike objectives (for me it was all 3 🤮). Ultimately the issue becomes that those other things you listed are tarpits. They are annoying and take ages to kill but I can and will just pin them in place while I score objectives and over 2/3 turns we can grind them down. A unit of 30 hearthguard is NOT a tarpit. It's a steamroller and if you try to pin it down it will kill whatever you put into it, even if that's your entire army...

I've just realised that I used mystic shield as a +1 to save which it isn't anymore...so yes you're correct. I'll leave the post as is because clearly they will always have cover saves amarite! More srsly having done it i might aswell leave it and i prefer not to remove my mistakes posthoc. Battlesmith, prayer, runesmith on magmadroth. I'm focusing on commonly avalible selfbuffing which you can generally assume to be active. Yes they could theoretically hit you with a mass of -hit through geminids but those are not going to be active on the turn you go. On the otherhand a fyreslayers player can and will be able to force the fight under their buffs. So the difference is that Phoenix guard "can" rebuff you to hell but hearthguard "will" he running all the ton of buffs. Ofc all of this ignores the fact those hearthguard will pile in and brutalize you before you get to activate and they will reliably obliterate anything you put into them.

@broche Universal Basis 6 Goregruntas: Buffed with +1 hit, RR1's to hit, +1 damage, +1 attack, Charging (4 cps required to guarantee, I get that turn 1 with most of my lists). Vs 3+ save Savage Orruks. Vs Phoenix Guard with -1 Wound Aura active Vs Buffed Hearthguard 2+(RR1) to save - Note they can get RR all saves for 1 set of turns. They are not even in the same league let-alone the same ballpark. @PlasticCraic Vs 3+(RRA) save with Mortek Guard Assuming +1 - from both Mystic Shield or the stupid temple thing they have Vs 2+(RRA) save with Mortek Guard Assuming +2 - from both Mystic Shield or the stupid temple thing they have So altogether not great. It's the 2+ RR save that really dicks us, if they start becoming a major force in the meta we'll probably end up adding more MW into the army, ie. Wrath of Gork and/or Da Blazin' Eyes. That said our best bet would probably be to add a Wurrgog prophet in for it's horde killing and 4+ CP gain.

The thing is, if I put a unit of 10 ardboys buffed with +1 damage they will grind through all of those. If I put a unit of 6GG's buffed up with +1 damage they will grind through all of those. I put both of those into a unit of hearthguard at the same time I might kill 5/6 if I'm lucky. It's not about points per wound or anything else. It's about the fact that you straight up cannot fight the unit of hearthguard, if you try it will destroy you. All the rest are a problem, but they are a problem with answers. You pop out fanatics in front of an MK/GG's I will happily MW them off the board for you. 30 savage orruks with 3+ save, a unit of buffed GG's should kill between 11-18 on the charge, enjoy that battleshock. 30 Phoenoix guard, that unit of GG's should kill ~18 on their own. Having done that your opponent is now scrambling to catch back up from the enormous amount of damage they just took. That same unit against a buffed unit of hearthguard? You do 5 wounds if you're lucky and they will wipe you in return. That's assuming you even get to attack. There is absolutely nothing in the game which can be compared to hearthguard, if you think there is then whoever was using them when you played against them make a whole bunch of massive mistakes. You beat 30 hearthguard by either killing ALL the characters, something we don't have the reach to do, or you don't fight them. If the battleplan lets them turtle on objectives you've lost.

It's scenario dependent. Buffed up 30 Hearthguard is basically the only thing in the game I would say we have no hope of killing, I was forced to slam everything into it and managed to kill ~22/23 of them at the cost of my ENTIRE army. He moved up the middle, first objective landed right in the middle of his blob, my objective landed right in front of it (about 3"...) and his landed just behind it. I either sat there and stared at him or hoped I could kill him, honestly if forced to play it again I'd do the second, score my secondaries and then handshake. Had the objectives landed in vastly different areas of the board then I would have been able to play the objectives and nullify his unkillable block. I had moved so that if they dropped anywhere than in the middle of the board they were mine. Sadly the RNG favoured him. None of those replace Hearthguard in that scenario. I would have butchered all of those, hell I played a game on the friday before hand and killed something like 50 Phoenix guard. Hearthguard are the only things that we totally bounce off, especially since he can activate them at the beginning of the combat phase, then activate as his first activation during the combat phase. Starstrike should be 1d3 to determine which 1/3rd of the board then 1d3 to determine which part of that board. As it is starstrike is one of those battleplans which should just never be used in tournaments. As it is I was relying on either a 55.5% chance (2-5 and 9-12), ideally a 33.3% chance (2-4/10-12), followed by the second and third not landing by the first AND not by each other. If any 2 drop next to each other you lose vs hearthguard. I'd say it's about 90% odds in their favour. Biased Battleplans In my opinion the Battleplans which are bad for tournaments. Knife to the Heart Starstrike Relocation Orb Blood and Glory Gift from the Heavens Take and Hold Two battleplans which should probably also not be used are Places of Arcane Power and Three Places of Power. This is because Escalation is basically a better version of them.

Since I'm basically always going to use a clan I'll never be running that setup. Mine atm is sunblessed armour and Weird Un. Still weak to generic mortal wounds but still a massive problem for the opponent to deal with. I'm weighing up Ironjawz Waaagh! Against just having a weirdnob be the general for d3 command points. I guess my biggest reason for running one general over the other would actually come down to the extended range on the different CAs.

I'm of a similar mind with Mean 'Un, although I do really miss it a ton...having a 2 damage MK fist is so depressing Personally though I'm leaning into the Weird 'Un as my default trait. There's quite a few nasty spells kicking around with CoS being a thing among others that were already floating around. Weird 'Un makes the Cabbage a less appealing target and gives you a 50% chance to just ignore it if your opponent does decide to chance it.

I wouldn't take the move artefact 😆 I just had a spare artefact and used it, I was commenting on how nice it actually was. @Gothmaug is right. Game 5 at Bloodshed it triggered 5 times in my first hero phase. So I spent 1 command point to basically have an entire extra move phase for free...

Aetherquartz Broach. Ie. The mandatory artefact...

10 brutes is 280 points, 15 Ardboys is 270. I would take the 15 ardboys everyday with the only two exceptions. 1) your entire meta is gristlegore and Ogors. 2) you're running a brutefist.

One thing I have enjoyed over the weekend is a Warchanter with Get 'Em Beat and The Sash of Ten Paradises (+2" move). It meant that I could run him, make it a 6 and be going 12" when you combine that with the 12" bubble it's actually really easy to get off even with the long bomb engages. While it's very unreliable 😑 it can be game changing when it goes off. Honestly I'm in 2 minds as to whether I make the cabbage the general and/or give him the artefact. I can just make the warchanter the general and have him take the d3 command points instead, same thing but better. Sure I lose the Waaagh! but if I'm honest it's so hard to get to make a difference now I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have a potential 2 extra CP's. Equally you could just take the 4+ CP on the weirdnob and grab hand of gork as a threat tool. (again if you don't protect your backline I'm going to TP stuff into it). That said I really like the Fungoid tech, it's got the 4++ and the CP for free without the artefact. Plus the 20 points into a triumph which is super sweet. It's how much do I value hand of gork...realistically though I've been playing without it since forever so it's not like I'm losing something I'm not used to playing without. So yeah I'm totally onboard with that fungoid train. Great shout there @Hot Peanut love it 🤩

As a player I am very aggressive. If you leave a gap or I think I see a weakness I will just initiate and try to punish as hard as I can. It's one of the reasons I struggled so much playing Big Waaagh! you need at least 1 turn to hit critical mass Waaagh! points before you can really go. I'll try to hit broad points and keep the answers easy easy to understand as possible but this is going to dip into both my strategical, tactical and general gameplay very quickly. To reiterate though, if you go and watch the honest wargamer coverage of Bloodshed in the Shires, leo is a perfect example of a conservative Ironjawz player, I am literally the opposite end of that spectrum I'm about as aggressive as it can get. To give an example, since their release earlier this year I've killed 4 archregents before they got to summon, I've also got a few GK heads on the list aswell. One of the key points to bring up early is that I am NOT running alphastrike lists, they look like it but they aren't. What I'm running is shock lists which rely on the lists aggressive potential to force the opponent to play as if next turn I'm in their face forcing the fight. This causes such a massive amount of problems and potential threats that the opponent has to deal with, is there a gap in the screen, can I punch one with shooting/impact hits, did they leave enough space for a Maw-Krusha to land in all becomes serious considerations for the opponent. More importantly they are serious considerations while I'm sat 25" away, I can literally be halfway across the board and they are still have to protect against me. I will just go at the drop of a hat from 24-28" away. Game 3 at bloodshed is a good example of my mindset and how I play, my opponent deployed under the assumption that I would either give him first turn or try to fight on objectives. My response was to go first, ignore the objectives kill his archregent, put a cabbage into a terrorghiest while throwing 3 pigs to kill the screen allowing me to potentially pile in and attack the one with doppleganger. End result is that on my turn 1 I've his archregent and the ghouls on one side of the board, forced the terrorghiest to blow his doppleganger without actually engaging it and triggered a cabbage attacks on the second terrorghiest (it wiffed in spectacular style ). The reason I brought that up first is that it's crucial to how I deal with the problems you're facing. An endless spell for example is hitting at most 24" away? So I'm actually out of range of them, Despite that I'm still well within threat range for my opponent, so they are forced to choose from three really bad options. Either they don't cast their spells (I played vs Nagash today, he cast 1 offensive spell over the entire game), they move towards me in the hope that they get next turn or they throw them out into the wild and pray. On the screen issue, depending on what army I'm playing against I will often just swing for the double turn so at worst I'm running a 41.5% chance to win off a double turn. It's really complicated to go through because it varies wildly by army but it's combination of trying to force my opponent to make errors, making charges in order to clear screens while also screening myself from to much potential retaliation, throwing some units away to clean up screens opening up potential in later turns or just using my charges to pin the opponent while I win on objectives. Another example from last week I played against sylvaneth he moved forward a bit and I slammed into his screens clearing them off. He then attacked into part of my assault with his hard hitters, so I threw the rest of it EVEN FURTHER into his line threatening his heroes that he needed for his teleports. By the end of his turn 3 he had cleared both cabbages, 6 gg's and a unit of 5 ardboys, he'd also lost the game because I was so far ahead on points he couldn't get back into it. I know I'm not going to hit his good stuff, I know that it's a suicide attack but I also know that while he's dealing with it I'll be busying scoring a ton of objectives. Then it really comes down to how well you pick your moment and can you delay/capitalise enough to win even if you die doing it. Lastly is other alphastrikes, this is such a complicated question because I have literally never faced someone who could alphastrike me...Theoretically you screen in such a way that if they hit it you can retaliate and brutalise them. Realistically almost no army is running a 28-32" threat range AND a player who is aggressive enough to actually risk it. Even Bloodthirsters are running a max threat range of 22" and that's considered huge. This then brings us back round to my first point. It's VERY rare that I actually alphastrike, maybe 4 games in the last 25. Most of the time I threaten without actually allowing my opponent to engage, this lets me build up command points and stall the game out on an even footing meaning that my eventual assault is even stronger. If you spend 3 turns wiggling forward on your objectives while I dance just out of range I now have 2 extra CP and you have 2 less turns to push me off your objectives ASWELL as take my objectives to actually equalise on points. So yes, the list looks hyper aggressive because that's how it's meant to play and how I play as a player. The idea is that my opponent is so busy shitting themselves of whether or not I'm going to kick their teeth in next turn that I don't actually have to do it to win the game. They are looking at the bear knowing that they can't attack it forced to wait until it attacks them and if they trip or stumble it WILL pounce and will eat them. Control through aggressive potential. If all else fails you can fall back on the old "Here's an army, catch" then play the "can you deal with it" game.

Quick note, I managed to ****** up the copy paste (I was knackered last night). I was big waaagh! With Big G as the general (corrected it). A little bit but the only unit which isn't a threat with +1 damage is the 5 ardboys, even a unit of 10 or the block of 5 will mince stuff with it. My biggest issue came down to how slow the army is without mighty destroyers, brutes limping across the battlefield being mopped up after the game is over etc. The only way I'd play big waaagh! Over IJ is if I was running a true hybrid list. Honestly my biggest complaints were the 15 brutes rather than spells etc. I'd swap them out for 6 more GGs and possibly even another unit of 3. My next list will probably be something like this. Allegiance: Ironjawz- Warclan: IronsunzMortal Realm: HyshLeadersOrruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour- Mount Trait: Weird 'UnBattleline6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)- Pig-iron Choppas6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)- Pig-iron Choppas10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)BattalionsIronfist (160)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsExtra Command Point (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 133 2 big blocks of GGs, cabbage, weirdnob (maybe as general with 2 spells?) Hand of gork. I don't think you can overdo it on GGs they are just that good.

You're right, yesterday was a long day so my brain was frazzled. It's charge at the end of your opponents charge phase.

The list Leo went 5-0 with to win bloodshed in the shires had a Footboss and no megaboss.

Dw is strictly better at 5, 2h and dw are equivalent at 10 so yeah really it's better to have the dual Choppas. Sadly brutes are a bit overcosted given their lack of extras compared to ggs/ardboys. GGs are amazing and ardboys are solid buff targets. There hasn't really been THAT much exploration of brute lists because most of us don't own that quantity of brutes and those that do haven't really tried out a brutefist list I believe. We're to early into the book release to have actually explored the less obvious lists. If I had to guess it's either a brutefist in ironsunz or something in da Choppas. Maybe something wonkey like this. Allegiance: Ironjawz- Warclan: ChoppasMortal Realm: HyshLeadersOrruk Megaboss (150)- General- Trait: Checked Out- Artefact: The Golden Toof/Boss SkewerOrruk Warchanter (110)- Artefact: Aetherquartz BroochOrruk Warchanter (110)Battleline10 x Orruk Brutes (280)- Pair of Brute Choppas10 x Orruk Brutes (280)- Pair of Brute Choppas10 x Orruk Brutes (280)- Pair of Brute Choppas10 x Orruk Brutes (280)- Pair of Brute Choppas6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)- Pig-iron ChoppasBattalionsIronfist (160)Total: 1970 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 169 So you can pop the CA to buff up all your brute units, combine with the +2 bravery trait, maybe boss skewer, you're now rocking a reasonable bravery stat. Honestly though it's tricky, they needed to be ~10/20 points cheaper to be solid. EDIT: The issue really comes down to the fact GGs are just so much better for 20 points. +1 Bravery, +5" move, MW impact hits, lose the 7 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/2 but gain 12 attacks at 4(3)+/4(3)+/-/1. Brutes are just sitting ducks for both shooting/magic and opponents charges, GGs will basically always be initiating the combat which combined with SnB gives you such a massive advantage.

At blood and Glory with big WAAAGH! 0-3 on the first day 😥 First game was vs terradan, super close game came down to priorities and he squeaked a major with 1 vp in the final turn. Game 2 was vs 30 hearthguard on starstrike. Stars landed in a blob under the hearthguard, real boring nothing of note happened. Game 3 was against cities, I thought the handgunners were the scary part of the list so activated in the wrong order. Only got 5 attacks from my ardboy boss onto his greatswords not 32 at 3s/2s(rr)/-1/2...got mopped up after they minced 10 ardboys and 6ggs in a single round of combat. Allegiance: Big Waaagh!LeadersGordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)- GeneralOrruk Warchanter (110)- Warbeat: Get 'Em BeatOrruk Warchanter (110)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch- Warbeat: Killa BeatBattleline6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)- Pig-iron Choppas10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)10 x Orruk Brutes (280)- Jagged Gore-hackas5 x Orruk Brutes (140)- Pair of Brute ChoppasUnits5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)BattalionsIronfist (160)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsExtra Command Point (50)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 133 This is my list. Conclusions from day 1. I hate not having MD as a CA and miss SnB so much. Brutes are so mediocre, I'd gladly trade the unit of 10 for 15 ardboys, that +2 to charge is massive. Combine with dropping the unit of 5 for 3 more ggs and I'd feel so much better about the list. I miss the ironsunz hero phase charge. The list I was planning on running was a Da Choppas list but I forgot a weirdnob and 5 ardboys so couldn't run it. Probably last time I play big WAAAGH! Outside of tech lists which are using it for some cheeky stuff. Im definately an IJ player not a big WAAAGH! Edit: Day 2 was utterly irrelevant. 2 curbstompings vs ppl who didn't know how to play the game...I should not be on bottom tables after round 3 anymore 😅

@Fastbear I'm also finding that the standard cabbage is mediocre. I really like big g though. The MW output and ability to knock down cover is really nice. Fyi you can only use 1 of each warbeat each turn just in case you missed that. Is your shaman running the double cast ability? If so grabbing wrath of gork and having a unit of 5 and a unit of 10 ardboys gives you the 2 extra dice but also gives you the small unit for home objective protection. Definately looks solid though, those units of 6 ggs are evil with the +1 dmg! I'm looking at getting a 3rd Warchanter and running a Gorefist with big g 😁

Yes smashing and bashing overrides it. In both cases.

What exactly does it say?

Definately. It was super important for me to be able to clean off screens and/or stuff pinning me in combat. The difference between 5 turns to clear horrors and 2. The ardfist battalion, and others, use the warscroll names not keyword bold meaning they can't be taken in battalions.

Honestly. The changes that Brutes need are Bravery 7. 3+ Save Some sort of special rule to increase their mobility. "If the unmodified charge roll for a unit of Brutes is less than a 7, increase it to 7" -2 Rend Any 2 of the above would make them much better. Then again I'm of the opinion that Mad as Hell should have read. That and -2 Rend would make Brutes worth it. They become the slow moving hammer compared to the speed of GG's and the sturdiness of Ardboys.

The big problem I have with Brutes is the same ones I've always had. Bravery 6 Low model count Bravery 6 Super vulnerable to battleshock Bravery 6 Slow but unlike Ardboys doesn't have a random +2 to charge Bravery 6 The same as Ardboys in terms of buffs ..... Lower survivability due to not having shields ..... Bravery 6

Honestly I think there are two routes with it. You either go all in on the stupid or you don't run stupid at all instead going with a "normal" style ardfist. Trying to do both just leaves you with a version of the stupid list which is less likely to go off. In your case you're averaging 2-6 on the first turn with maybe 2 units over the rest of the game but no CPs for things like mighty destroyers. My list is putting down 4-8 turn 1 and another ~2 every turn. When you look at the difference between the two after that. You have a mawkrusha and 3 Goregruntas. I have a wurgog, 3 fungoids and 5 extra brutes. If you avoid going for the abusive side you can put down something which is going to play a way more "fair" game and has the Ardfist as a option not a strategy. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)- General- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa- Trait: Brutish Cunning- Artefact: Daubing of Mork- Mount Trait: Weird 'UnOrruk Warchanter (110)- Artefact: Aetherquartz BroochOrruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)Battleline15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)- Pig-iron ChoppasUnits5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)BattalionsArdfist (120)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsExtra Command Point (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 143

Gz you made it "Slightly" less user friendly. Now I'll have to Green puke 2 understrength Ardboy units, that way when the first is full I move onto the second. EDIT: Hell even this list to make sure you get the double puke.