DanielFM
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Posts posted by DanielFM
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4 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:
I’m anticipating the morrsarr nerf in GHB19 and trying out aggressive builds without them. Two Eidolons of the Storm are actually pretty decent and have some advantages. Running tidecaster fuethan they get to retreat, run and charge on turns 1, 3 and 5. On turn 4 they get a 2+ save if you don’t want to charge (cast mystic shield for further fun). They hit consistently strongly (especially if buffed with artefacts) and, given retreat and charge, they can charge every single turn and are more flexible than the eels. They heal on the charge as well and don’t degrade at all with damage. With artefacts they can be given mortal wound protection too which eels lack. Finally they still have rend even if charged, which is a real problem for the eels.
I have been experimenting running 2 x of the storm plus namarti corps (for second artefact). Tool one up as an absolute beast in damage output (I like e.g. Blade of Symmetry on the spear or sword of judgement on the stormshoal) and the other one with mortal wound protection (mirrored cuirass is good fun). Build the remainder of the list to get a semi-reliable Isharann ritual (I aim for 6+) and you have two beasts healing 1+D3 every turn, rerolling all failed hits, rerolling 1s to wound, punching out damage 3-4 attacks on -2 rend. I have charged the mirrored cuirass Storm into 9 eels and wiped them (reflect mortal wounds back, a few lucky-ish rolls followed by failed battle shock)
You get 6 and 9 Morsarr for those points. Are you sure you wouldn't be better with them? Only in wounds, that's 60 over 24.
Yes, it can change if Morsarr get nerfed (and hopefully Eidolon get cheaper) but right now I don't see the point.
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Pure Morrsar spam just came 2nd in Throne of Skulls.
I hope it's not sending GW the wrong message. Spamming our best unit is still competitive, yes. But the rest of the army needs help.
So when GHB2019 comes, let's cross fingers they don't just nerf Morrsar and leave the rest of the army as it is.
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1 hour ago, Deepkin said:
I dunno man, would making the other units morr viable even do that much? If you have 12+ morrsarr or 9+ allopex, what is really the difference in playstyle? Its still fast moving cavalry that hits hard with a lot of attacks buffed by an Akhelian King. It would be cool to swap out the models (he says, as he paints up his growing collection of eels) but it would end up playing pretty similarly.
If units were balanced (ideally) people would not lose much by using a split of those units, and most people tend to prefer model variety so they would go for it.
Even then, the real incentive for variety is not (only) balance but slightly different roles. People still field some Ishlaen (not many, though) as they offer something different to Morrsar. Allopexes don't really offer anything substantially different to Morrsar (mediocre shooting?). Making them cheaper could help to see them on the tables, but it wouldn't be enough.
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2 hours ago, Deepkin said:
Allopex at 110 points (30 point drop) has a comparable wounds-to-point value as Morrsarrs, and comparable attacks: a unit of 3 is 330 points, outputs 30 melee attacks (15 with rend) and 24 wounds. A unit of 6 morrsarrs is 320 points with 24 wounds and 24-36 attacks (if you roll straight 6s for the d3 tail attacks), of which 1/3 have rend when charging.
So Allopexes at 110 points might be worth it.
Also Daniel, youre talking about Aspect of the Sea. Storm is the cheaper choppy one, not the spellcaster.
Yep, meant Aspect of the Sea, sorry.
440 minus the proposed reduction (by DantePQ) would be 400.
2 hours ago, DantePQ said:II doubt it
Eidolon has many things going
- it's not a monster
- can take magical item
- isn't losing anything with wounds take
-has access to fantastic Allegiance Abilities
- 14" move with fly
I don't expect nothing dramatic from GH 2019 my bet is
Eidolons - 40
Reavers - 20
Leviadon - 80
Soulrender - 20
Shark - 20
Morssar +20
Battalions - 20
Most things I mentioned can have magical artifacts. They also get their own useful allegiance abilities. And some of them are as fast or faster, even flying (Aspect of the Sea, the overpriced one, moves only 10). Once again, only thing it has going for it is Forgotten Nightmares and access to cover and LoS.
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2 hours ago, DantePQ said:
I don't get this complaining about Deepkin they are powerful and very cool army to play with it. I love it as even spamming Morssar in Fuethan isn't auto pilot and forces to pick your targets carefully and plan everything in advance.
Considering points
Eidolons are overpriced a little 20-40 points decrease would be quite handy
Maybe Reavers should get 20 points decrease
Leviadon would need 80-100 decrease to be viable
And Sharks like 40-60
But I don't see such dramatic point changes.
Heroes are fine especially Tidecaster.
The Aspect of the Sea would still be overpriced at 400.
Compare to:
Thanquol- 400. Every bit as good a Spellcaster. Tougher. Close combat/shooting machine
Verminlords-300 or under. More or less what I said above.
Screaming Bell- 200, the same again, but much slower.
Lord of Change- 380, tougher, way better wizard.
I'm sure there are more examples out there.
It could go down to 350 and it would be still fair. Seriously, is being "untargetable" by shooting worth 80- 100 points?
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Almost the whole army except Morrsar needs and deserve a point decrease, at least to compete with the newer, more powerful battletomes.
Well, if GW expect us to play anything besides eels.
Let's hope they realize and gives us at least some of them. And not as part of an "everybody gets cheaper" spree as happened in 40k 🤣
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Speaking of points and Skaven, how is the Screaming Bell at 200 points not a spit in the face for anyone fielding the Aspect of the Sea for 440 points?
13 wounds, not a monster, LoS also in close combat, 5+ negate any wound, two spells/unbinds per turn, two great auras, retreat before CC attacks.
Is there anything besides +4 move and a single spell reroll/1d3 wounds heal justifying double the points/making you feel less stupid for using it? GHB2019 can't come fast enough.
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16 hours ago, Mark Williams said:
I like the shark.
The model? Really cool. The rules? Not for 140 points. It's almost literally deadweight, and worse than 3 Ishlaen in almost any scenario (except being required for the Akhelian Corps).
Compare to the rules of the Ironblaster for 120, for example.
We got 2 sharks in the Battleforce, anyway. No-one is going to need more than that 😆
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I think it's a perfect selection to round up the battleforce. Three battleline with either general (Reavers +2x10 Thralls or 2x10 thralls+6 eels in one unit), two useful Isharann heroes (ok, if you are willing to pick Mor'phann) and a support Shark.
Maybe the competitive meta is eels^10 (not really, though. Look at LVO), but for that you have individual eel boxes. GW was never going to release a discount box with just eels.
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1 hour ago, DantePQ said:
I don't think there is any trade-off, it's just matter of choice obviously Volturnos/King builds are harder to play as there is more moving parts to make them work. But they surely are comeptitive.
There is. You lose the Command Ability, so eels will never be as powerful. But they get a more advantageous Tides of Death helping them with battle tempo. How is that not a trade-off?
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3 minutes ago, DantePQ said:
@kozokus not really, firstly you need to survive until turn 3 - so you got to be quite clinical with deployment and picking your target then you got to have units in combats you want on 3rd turn and there is possiblity for your opponent to play around this.
Fuethan Alpha strike gives you more possibilities as you can go second in 1 st battle round and then attack first in both tuns in 2nd round. With ability to run&charge Turn 1 you can go anywhere on the table especially with Soulscryers
Is it very competitive? Yeah
Is there a big trade-off losing Lord of Tides/Supreme Lord of Tides? I think there is, clearly.
I think both are valid approaches with different strengths.
AFAIK none of the top-10 IDK lists in LVO 2019 were Reverse Tide Fuethan, this shows how an Akhelian King/Volturnos list can be very competitive.
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10 hours ago, Drofnum said:
That is my experience. I've had a lot of games with them to test out Scryer+Morrsarr and thats how it goes the majority of the time. As always picking your targets correctly is key.
You know what? You are actually right. Six Morrsar with +3 attacks for each weapon (and reroll 1's from AK) cause 28 wounds against a 4+ save unit on average. Ok, it's not the carnage they would unleash if they had charged (46 wounds), but when are you realistically going to need that much damage? Or as you said, how often will you able to line up such a charge until it's too late to decide the game?
It's a shame Lord of Tides is not one of the many "use at the start of the combat phase" Command Abilities, as it would have been very useful to pop it during High Tide if the opponent got first turn. In such situation, when your turn comes and you can use it the unit will have been depleted significantly. Well, it is as it is.
There is so much finesse to learn to play IDK right!
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4 hours ago, Drofnum said:
...even without the charge Morrsarr with +2 or +3 attacks have a massive damage output.
Really? Their stats are pretty mediocre without the charge buff.
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6 hours ago, Drofnum said:
Yeah, you dont keep them off til High Tide, you have to bring them on before that.
If you bring them on the turn before high tide you generally want them to wipe whatever unit they get in to. If they dont you still have high tide going for you and they will attack first in that phase no matter what. Its not a big deal for them to spend one turn on the table if you position decently.
It seems a bit of a waste of their great mobility to spend the "outflank" slots and have them wait a turn on the table when the slower Namarti could really benefit from the added movement.
I guess the case is for them to charge the turn they come (2nd) against an easy target so they are free to charge a beefy target next turn under High Tide. Getting stuck second turn and losing the chance to charge during High Tide wastes all the potential of Lord of Tides on Morrsar, and so would consider it a big mistake in one of my games.
Yet, I see Morrsar + King in ambush at least as an option to consider now.
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14 hours ago, Drofnum said:
I tend to play fairly aggressive with mine, my list isnt really the super competitive list though as I include an Eidolon of the Sea. I am usually in combat first turn but I try to keep the King/Volturnos safe for turn 3 to use his command points. I like bringing a big unit of Morrsarr out of the sea as well, keeps them protected until you bring them on. There is a game up on Frontline Gamings twitch of the LVO finals with Deepkin vs Stormcast, it would give you a pretty good idea of how to play that kind of list.
I thought keeping a big Morrsar unit+King on ambush was a good idea to have them intact before the charge. Then I realized the command ability is used in the hero phase (if it's not specified it's like that by default, by FAQ), so you can't come up turn 3 and buff the Morrsar. This tactic is a lot worse if they must spend a turn on the table before charging.
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35 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:
I think that is a fun list! Looks like it has enough magic to throw around, still has some punch and the eidolon looks like it could provide some good support! Have you thought about bringing realm artifacts instead of the book ones though? like the gyranstrike on the king or eidolon?
There are good realm artifacts, some are great! But the Cloud of Midnight brings so much utility it's a must.
Shooty opponent? Run the Akhelian king in front of your army and pop the Cloud. Whole shooting phase wasted (thanks FAQ!). Power magic? Pop it in the hero phase and he is immune.
You don't even have to waste its close combat potential by using it in the combat phase, even if you can in case of emergency.
I'm still torn between Briomdar and Ionrach, and between 2x10 Thralls and 6 eels or 20 Thralls or 2x3 eels. Every choice has a high cost. Aaargh!
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11 minutes ago, Requizen said:
Hm, I think if you're running Phalanx, you really want bigger units to take advantage of the buffing and what not. I would either drop the Hurricanes to take more Sequitors, or just not take the Battalion, drop the foot Evocators, and run 6 Dracoline Evocators instead. It feels a bit like trying to take a little of everything, and fails to be good at any one thing.
I am interested in the use of a Drakesworn Templar. I love my LCoSD, but the extra 100 points is pretty noteworthy.
Thanks a lot for the advice. The battalion is to lower the drops, get an additional Pack Leader use and to get a useful artifact besides the mandatory one.
The list is not very focused, I know. The lack of optimization is a mix of "the models I own" and "rule of cool". I will try to do my best with it knowing there is a better verion of it out there.
Any advice for the spells?
PD. Yeah. LCOSD is way better, but those points allowed me to fit it in my list without changing it too much. And I think it will perform well.
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Hi guys! Long time no see!
Reading about the possibilities of Astral Templars alpha-strike, I redid one of my lists and I think I came into something (at least fun!)
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Astral Templars
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline(240)
- General
- Trait: Dauntless Hunters
- Artefact: Godbeast Plate
- Spell: Thundershock
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Speed of Lightning
Battleline
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
Units
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (300)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
Drakesworn, Dracolines and Lord Arcanum rush forward and hopefully combo-charge in the first turn (Lightning speed on the Incantor is for the Drakesworn). Judicators and the Incantor sit on the backfield and the rest drop from Azyr, to support the hammer blow or strategically in later turns to block/kill vulnerable targets/take objectives.
I think it's no tournament winner material but it can sure give some run for their money to middle tiers.
Would you change the spells? It's what I put less thought on.
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On 2/2/2019 at 4:26 PM, DanielFM said:
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However, mine is a bit unorthodox as I will go Briomdar and put the Reavers, chunky Thrall block and Aspect of the Sea in the enemy's face. Tsunami of Terror + Tide of Fear to ruin someone's day. Not-optimal but I want something to spice us up (beside the tried and tested Reverse Fuethan).
...
I know something similar could be done with Steed of Tides and a different Enclave, but I would lose a spell. Plus, this gives me flexibility in case I decide to ambush other units depending on the opponent.
I'm so dumb, I can't believe it. Infiltrating the Aspect of the Sea with the Soulscryer is basically useless, he appears in the movement phase so he can't cast that turn.
So, Steed of Tides it is.
I'm no longer sure if Briomdar is worth it for that list.
-If I keep Briomdar, I can split the Thralls in 2x10 and still infiltrate them plus Reavers (and have the 6 Morrsar together). I could also inflitrate Reavers +20 Thralls +Leviadon for the shock factor.
-Ionrach would give me the free +1 to cast for the Aspect of the Sea (and Steed Tidecaster)
I'm not interested in the other Enclaves for different reasons, they basically don't fit with my idea for the list.
This is the updated list (I can change the Tidecaster for 5 Khinerai Heartrenders and a 20 points Endless spell):
Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Briomdar
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
Akhelian King (240)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony
- Artefact: Cloud of Midnight
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (440)
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
Akhelian Leviadon (380)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Yes, I know noone cares about my ramblings 😂
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6 hours ago, Chikout said:
The comparison to Lord of tides is strange. There is another command ability in the same book that is literally 3 times as good.
In addition the round the extra attack goes off Idoneth all hit first so you can guarantee your chosen unit will use it to full effect. The Idoneth special rule let's you keep your general alive until the vital moment, etc etc
Yes, and it's on a unique character, that people automatically takes over the regular one. Maybe that speaks worse of internal than external balance.
Forgotten Nightmares protect against shooting. Hero phase mortal wounds and spells will kill it just fine (not Volturnos, but I hate the guy! 🤣
5 hours ago, Neinball said:I find it it hilarious that the choice of argument about balance is Idoneth vs FEC. Like you do realize that Idoneth are a top tier army and FEC are no where near their power level, right? You can’t just flatly compare one specific ability vs another specific ability, you’ve got to include the whole package as Idoneth seem to be getting by just fine with that command ability the way it is now, whereas FEC definitely need something to boost them up.
The way things are now that spell alone would not be enough to bring FEC onto the top tables, but it’s a start depending on what else they get. Remember what was said before, FEC have a very limited selection of units and very little variety between those few units. If the army is a one trick pony, then it needs to be able to do that trick better than most other armies, so you will find situations where yes this one spell/command ability is just flat out better than the one in this other army, but there will be other factors in play to help balance it.
What it's hilarious is that top tier IDK lists are spam of 1 units (spear eels) with support characters. How is that any different from FEC being limited in unit choices?
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7 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:
If you kill 18 then 8+D6 run away to battleshock also I used Waaaghs as well so more attacks on the Mawkrusha than just warscroll. This was at blood and glory 2016 so pre command points but the premise is still the same.
Basically sometimes the way to beat a new crazy combo is to kill the stuff before it can kill you this is the way of Gorkamorka and works
The remaining 12 get to strike before battleshock kills them, so it doesn't add up to your "kill them before they get to attack". As you say, right now the battleshock can be nullified for 1 command point, all the easier if there is only a single chunky block.
But I guess the general concept is viable. You only need to commit a lot of points to do it reliably. They are only 300 points, after all.
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20 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:
Kill the ghouls before they get to attack I’ve had a Mawkrusha kill a unit of 30 on his own twice in the same game it’s not difficult
Well, average damage including shooting is 17.5 so I hope you played lottery the same day because you were on a rather unlikely streak.
They regenerate 5 models on average if a crypt ghast courtier is nearby, so it sounds even more difficult to achieve.
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6 minutes ago, lord_blackfang said:
So what if it is? It's as daft as saying IDK are broken because Water Cloak Man is stronger than a Varghulf.
You have no clue how the rest of the armies' assets measure up nor how much FEC things cost.
Having individual abilities one-up the previous ones smells of bad balance, power creep and old Warhammer-Fantasy-editions-go-to-hell-as-new-armybooks-get-stronger.
That was a big strawman: you can get almost 3 varghulfs for an Eidolon, and they are collectively better. Spell Vs command ability, one on one, can't be really balanced by points so easily.
We can still wait for the rest of the army to see it context, but a 30 strong Crypt Ghoul unit with an easy to cast +1d3 attacks will be very powerful regardless of that.
5 minutes ago, Dirtnaps said:I'm not saying it's not better, it's obviously better all I'm saying there are downsides to it that help balance it out a bit. You're right they could take Dark Wizardry (assuming they don't change their command traits) and get a bonus to cast but then you're missing out on Majestic Horror, that and there might be other options that are more appealing if they do change their command traits for the book. Personally I think we should all just hold off on judgement of the spell until we see what else they're getting in the book, it could be that they'll get a strong spell lore that'll make deciding to cast Ferocious Hunger on a unit every turn a hard choice for all we know.
Yeah, we must wait. But it doesn't look that good (in balance terms) to begin with.
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1 minute ago, Dirtnaps said:
As you said it's a spell, that means it can be dispelled or fail to cast completely. Where as the Deepkin one is a command ability and guaranteed to go off even if it is only in the third turn and the wholly within 12" isn't going to matter all that much because you're eels will be close by, yes the FEC player can use it a turn earlier (I say this assuming they won't actually be able to get into melee on turn one) and yes it is a strong spell, but there are many ways to deny it.
We don't know if FEC can get bonus to cast. 24" range make it more difficult to dispel it. Plus they can use it turn 2, 3 and 4, 3x more times that IDK. Together with the +1d3 attacks (on average it's as good as using Lord of Tides 2 times), how is it not head and shoulders better?
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AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion
in Order
Posted
Points have already leaked.
The bad:
-130 points Soulscryers. Harsh
-170 points Morrsar. Manageable
-Eidolon of the sea 420 points, Eidolon of the Storm 400. So -20 and unchanged. Still a hot pile of garbage.
The good:
-350 points Leviadon.
-120 points Allopex. Both closer to be useable.
-80 points Soulrender
-130 points Namartis. Nothing groundbreaking, each 10 infantry guys pay for the Morrsar overcost.
Overall? Nothing will change. With a pure eel list, you lose 30-60 points. With a mixed list, you gain maybe 30-40 points. What use are those, an endless spell?
I hope other armies didn't get cuts across the board, because we will be left behind.