Jamopower

It's not a good business plan to have everything fixed. It would mean that they couldn't release anything new content after that. Even new battletomes will shift the whole game balance concerning competitive gaming, as the list building is dependent on what you can face, and thus the good units will change according to that.

It was said in the article that the spells are available for the games happening on the realm: So similar to what we have now, but expanded.

Hoping that we'll get some gluttony inspired Slaanesh models in the next release, although don't think it's likely.

If you think about medieval combat, the clash would rarely be an affair where another force is standing on the open and the other force runs over them. Most of the time both parties would charge against each other, or the unit charged would be in a defensive position, both of which are not represented by any specific rules in AoS, but are common in many other "more serious" wargames, but is covered by the alternating activation. Though it is just a simplification for gaming purposes, it makes the game more interesting as there is more things to consider while you are charging, i.e. on the battlefield whereas protecting your weaker stuff with screens is something that is done during deployment and in the list building phase. A simplification is to say that list building and deployment are strategy, while the stuff that is done midway during the game to counter opponents moves and surprises would be tactics.

Of course the natural counter is to protect all the important parts of your army with layers of chaff screens. Possibly leading to micromanagement of the formation of your army. The chargers go first would in my head lead to a game similar to old fantasy battle, where the first few turns both players would try to remove each others chaff units while keeping the heavy hitters back and whomever gets the big charge in wins. That was of course in a game where there was charge diverting and the armies were in overall bit slower. Without diverting, the charging is a lot more safe, especially with monsters such as the Zombie dragons. The game dynamic with chargers going first is so different, that the exact effect is hard to even figure out. In 40k the whole dynamic is very different as most of the close combat units are so bad in dealing damage and the whole retreating mechanism is so much more useful due to the amount of firepower (especially from close range due to rapid fire etc.) each army has available.

Or strategic, sounds for me that the strategy points cane be used for it and perhaps the draws go to the player who won the previous initiative. The tidbits they have released for now sounds reasonable, but the combat will be the main point for me. Hopefully they don't change it.

I suppose that has more to do with the Stardrkae he is currently facing in Scgt, than the new edition...

Guys, it might be that the competetive AoS is pointless, but if it's the thing that the local scene is interested, then Karol's outlook is reasonable. You probably don't want to get beastclaw raiders as your army if everyone is playing the most efficient forces. They just don't cut it. No matter how fun they are to play, if you lose 2/3 of the games just because of the list, it isn't fun in the long run and you might feel bad that you have put your hard earned money into them, especially if the local wages are such that the models effectively cost double. As said, there are many ways of playing. I'm all for casual gaming, but I can understand that kind of view very well.

Spending money for an army that can't be used for matched play is bit of a misleading thing as they sell those models that don't have an up to date AoS scroll only during this week... Of course there is the second hand market, but you can also buy stuff second hand that has had official rules last time in 80s..

Yes, my own beginnings were very much the same, but that sort of happens anyways most of the time when the people are very excited about the game and the knowledge is not on the same level.

In contrary to what is the normal way of thought, I would say that Open gaming is primarily for the experienced gamers while the newer gamers are better to start with the matched. The precondition for having reasonable open or narrative gaming is that both players realize that it is their responsibility to make the game interesting for both participants. As said, that'll include discussions before gaming and making the army lists in some part together or even better, by a third party umpire. Open gaming is actually pretty much the same as what is done in the historical wargaming all the time. You can look at the Perry miniatures facebook page or an issue of Wargames illustrated to see how successful it can be. It's not too hard to make reasonably equal armies by experienced gamers just by adding stuff together in fashion of a hero is worth 10 regular guys and an elite warriors are worth two guys, while the big monster is worth 30-50 of the regular guys. In similar fashion as you need to balance the armies out when using points, as two armies with the same total point cost can be very different in prowess due to additional special rules of the newer armies and with some armies just being very good against certain armies (that's why there are discussions of tournament metas). That said, for many the main interest in the GW games is, and always has been, the making of the army lists as in the end these are more of an army building games as the army lists have a huge difference and the game itself is pretty simple, at least compared to some other games in the market. For those players that especially are in the hobby because they like that, the open or narrative gaming doesn't offer much and it can be hard to get to the mentality. Luckily there is the matched play that has perhaps the best balance ever in a GW game for them.

It's also good to always remember, that the points presented in the general's handbooks are designed with the matched play scenarios in mind, and in different kind of scenarios, they might not result to any better balance than using old points or eyeballing. They are just tools available to players to organize their games. Good example are the batallions in a scenario where the attacker takes the first turn. The "one drop cost" doesn't make much sense in those. Similar cases are scenarios that put lots of value to certain units, like the priests that have important role in many of the Realmgate wars scenarios. Having less/none priests should be somehow compensated if the winning condition is strongly dependant on the amount of priests in the army. On top of the scenarios, the terrain has also a strong influence. In a cityfight the long range shooting units might be overcosted and some other units undercosted etc.

Aren't the WH Legends just that, the rules for Old world setting for playing with the AoS rules? The made to order campaigns are theirchosen way to make money out of it in the tabletop world.

The points gap is exactly what I meant. Even if the scrolls would have reasonable points costs, sticking into Bret or TK allegiance gives you very little in comparison to some of the new armies that get allegiance abilities, spells, artefacts, command traits, house traits and whatnot on top of regular synergies for free. Thus getting a fair fight between the armies will often lead to open/narrative gaming in any case. I believe that keeping the legends without points is a direct learning from the first GHB where the Tomb kings were as good as they were. I can imagine how many complaints they have got about them bring so good and not available to buy. Sometimes the economical realities just mean that something needs to be dropped from the catalogue. I would say that it is a huge favour that they still provide these, and the compendium rules before them, to give at least some options to use the old stuff. Especially as these are completely free. In addition to that, there are still also lots of other games where those models fit. Especially as the Brets fit to historicals in some degree, the horses are just ridiculously huge when ran together with actual historical models.

Aren't the Brets and TK already sort of wiped out of matched play due to their rules being so weak in comparison to their points costs and to the amount of special rules and synergies the new armies have? Warhammer games have indeed been always army building games, but everyone doesn't still build their armies on pure efficiency. Some people also enjoy building thematic collections and have suitably thematic battles with them. This kind of rules are for them and they don't take anything out from the people that enjoy different kind of gaming.

It took about a month for the Diaz Seekers of Slaanesh to arrive. Probably depends on the demand, but I guess it is quite high for this kind of offers.

Hopefully they release more armies soon as this is some of the best stuff they have given for a while. Waiting eagerly for the other elves and dwarfs. Also hopefully the blind Eltharion will be resold when they get to high elves. Have been sad for many years because I sold mine. It's also great that they say that the reason for intruducing these rules is because so many people wished for something like this in their survey. They listen to us!

There seems to be a difference. No "extra special rules" requiring out of game stuff and even some of the unit special rules have been changed. Also the keyword references are to Dark elfs, witch elfs etc. Instead og whatever they were called in the beginning of AoS. What comes to Bretonnia and Tomb kings, as they are now, they are hardly matched play worthy in any case, so updating their rules to Legend status would most likely be an improvement. Depending on the attitude of the local gaming community of course. My biggest gripe with this is that it will probably take ages for all of the old armies to get this treatment and before that, it'll be quite hazy ground.

Well my guess is that when, (or if) it comes to their turn, they just release a bunch of classic metal characters and update the rules. As they did for dark elves. Fey enchantress, Louen Leoncour, the Grail reliquae, The trebuchet are good candidates, maybe even some of the fun stuff like the Robin Hood group from 5th edition.

Well that's the point. These scrolls are for playing with Dark elves in the Old world, the newer are for same models but they are named Aelves, which live in a different world and are split to minor factions. It's good to keep them separate as mixing them together would easilly just lead to all sorts of shenanigans, power gaming and complaints of brokenness. Naturally I assume that every one understands that they don't want to change the new aelves back to the old elves so this is sort of the best compromise.

This is better than I had wished for, as they updated the rules for the whole range. No points, but they are easily derived from the current and the old GHB for friendly games if needed. Waiting eagerly for the wood elves, dwarfs and high elves.

It would be very surprising if Grots and Skaven wouldn't have some new stuff incoming in next year or so, as they have always been very popular and one of the key races in the whole "Warhammer brand". Especially as almost all other classic Warhammer races have been "aosified" already.

Yes, that's for sure. The new factions will make sure that the old ones drop out from the competitive gaming during some duration of time. But it also applies to non legacy stuff. Not much gutbusters or Skaven outside skryre on the tournament tables. I have understood that the relatively new Khorne is also bit on the suffering side as well with the new meta. But that's just how it goes. Everything is still very much playable in any kind of gaming, as long as rules are concerned. The power level is a completely separate thing. Many units in the newest army books won't see much play either. I also think like was said above, that they release these small factions to test water and I wouldn't expect to see more models to most of the factiond released for AoS this far any time soon outside of Shadespire or specialist games.

Do they come and delete the pdf's I have on my computer or burn the printed out warscrolls from my shelf? I'm sure there will never be any new content for those armies, but it doesn't make them any less playable with the rules they already have. That said, I don't believe we are going to see any new content for, say Daughters of Khaine either. At least for many many years. Basides some splash release for Shadespire or a character for some boxed set. They might lose their official status and all, but still the rules are there and if you have a Bretonnian army you can use those rules until the end of days. It's not like a computer game where something can just be removed from the game totally. The people have the physical copies and will use them no matter what. I mean, people around here play warhammer 3rd edition regularly. It's also the reason why it's hard to see them removing stuff they have already made rules totally from the game. Keeping them in with minimal effort gives them a lot of goodwill from their customers for almost free. I have understood that the whole Legends thing was created because a lot of people (me included) wished for more of the old stuff in their big survey they had. The first wave seems to be old special characters and having non pointed warscrolls for them makes a lot of sense.

Yes that was my point exactly. In tournament play, even a lot of the quite new stuff seems to be already out of fashion, but it still doesn't stop people using stuff like Khorne bloodbound armies based on Blood warriors and the Gorechosen back at home. Just like it doesn't stop anyone from playing with their Tomb kings, even if they don't have the perfect counters for the newest flair. The rules still work perfectly and there are the points if you use them. It also doesn't cost any resources from GW to keep supporting them on this level. They just need to keep those few pdf:s somewhere on the back of the webpage. In which they are quite good at. You could find a lot of specialist games rulebooks and stuff like the witch hunter codex from the official pages a long time after they had ended "supporting" them.