Sception

forgive the blurry low res picture, snagged this from a corner of a page shown in the white dwarf preview. I just wanted to say that I didn't realize until now how much I missed battle reports with pictures that looked like this - they're just so much more legible than top-down pictures of loose models or clusters of circles.

I want that model for D&D. Perfect figure for a paladin/hexblade of the Raven Queen.

some classic vamp counts heroes I never got around to painting as Soulblight Gravelords, ready to be re-re-based back to squares for the Old World.

Thanks! It's been a major flurry of work over the last several days, taking up all my available hobby time and then some. They're not even ready for priming yet, I still need to apply texture paint first, and I might go for a round of paint stripping on the skeletons with bows. Then again, that celestra that's on them isn't too far removed from the vallejo grey primer I plan to use as an undercoat for the skeletons going foward, so maybe it's fine to just leave them as is. In the mean time, though, I'm way ahead of the local gaming group at this point - My room mate's still choosing his army, others have only just gotten their initial pre-release orders - so this lot's probably going back on the shelf for a few weeks to give people time to catch up. That also gives me time to finish some other painting projects that were supposed to be done before the big old world push. ... I do again have to recommend the txarli factory bases & unit trays, which I picked up from coveted forge. They're very nice. One minor nitpick - the magnet slots on the 60x100 bases were mishapen (looks like somebody resized a 50x50 to the new proportions but forgot to go back and tidy up the magnet slots back to 5mm circles), but it's really no big deal, the depth is still right and superglue holds the magnets in fine even if the slots aren't snug. ... Also, the metal bowshabti are great. Just, so, so, soooo much better than the resin they used to be in. Obviously I wish we got new plastic ushabti instead, but until that day comes these are very nice, and I'm absolutely on the email waiting list to get more when they're back in stock.

1k Mortuary Cult, all on their new bases.

Re: earlier discussions about Frenzy, the recent FAQ's notes about being allowed to attempt yo reform after wiping out & overrunning a unit makes feenzy a good bit better. Still as much a detriment as a buff, imo, but not as bad as I was making out before.

The first batch of Txarli Factory bases & unit trays have arrived from Coveted Forge. The arduous process of re-rebasing my Tomb Kings can now begin! These are the plain top design, pre-fited for 5x1mm disc magnets (which I purchased from Apex Magnets). If you have a 3d printer you can purchase the print files from Txarli Factory. If, like me, you do not have a 3d printer, then you can purchase them printed from Coveted Forge for a reasonable price. The prints are high quality, & the packing was efficient & secure, using environment friendly packing material. Pre-modeled bases in several styles are also available, which was tempting, but these were cheaper, plus I want them to match my existing AoS bases for some limited crossover use. It only took a couple weeks for this lot to arrive, which was faster than expected, though I suspect I got my order in just before the Old World rush, so if you place an order right now it might take longer. I'm very happy with these & will be ordering more soon. If you're looking for basing options for The Old World, Coveted Forge def has my recommendation. Some minor nitpicks: the 25mm squares are just a tiny bit shorter than the larger bases. Not a problem, but if you stick a unit filler on a 50x50 or 50x75 in the middle of a unit of 25x25s, the filler's base will sit ever so slightly higher than the rest. Also a few of the bases had some plasticy fibers around some of the edges. Again, no big deal, but you might want to rub the edges on some sandpaper to clean everything up. It's still less cleanup work than the old gw plastic bases with the sprue nubs.

They know in their hearts that they're in the wrong. 😛

I don't think multiple instances of extra rank attacks stack, but I could be wrong. List looks pretty good. The only thing that feels off is the lack of scouts & dark riders. Maybe its my previous edition / old wood elf player showing, but I have a hard time passing up on skirmish scout & fast cav harassment units. Just a lot of utility to those. Then again I do skip skeleton riders in tomb kings, but that's more of a model quality issue than a competitive choice, and imo dark riders still look fine. Anyway, I'm not sure what I'd recommend dropping to fit them though, so it might just be a case of not being able to fit everything one could want in a limited game size.

Eh, longer potential charge range is just giving frenzy more rope to hang you with. I played some dark elves back in the day and my singular witch elf unit constantly had me pulling my hair out, even with dark riders and harpies to help focus their attention. More than that, I played a lot of wood elves against various frenzied units, and they always felt like free wins. So long as your army is fairly maneuverable (or at least has access to maneuverable elements) then you can use the opponents own frenzy blinder units to protect your vulnerable targets from the frenzied unit, and as long as your army is fairly shooty (or at least has access to some shooty elements), you can clear those blinders right when you need a frenzied unit to make the worst possible charge. Lizardmen are not my faction (despite my apparent decision to die on the hill of 'saurus warriors don't suck in TOW'), but just from reading their pdf they seem to have access to both maneuverable units and shooty units enough to really punish frenzy hard. If I were a lizardmen player, I don't think Khornate chaos warriors (or witch elves for that matter) would be high on my list of troublesome match ups. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm basing too much of that opinion on experience with a different army (mostly wood elves, admittedly probably the best faction for punishing frenzy in most editions of the game) in different editions (mostly 5th through 7th, 8th is when I switched over to all undead all the time).

I have a scheduled painting session of 2 to 3 hours once a week. Sometimes I can do more than that, but not often.

In terms of default positive attitude about Old World and a reflex to reject criticism, I do have to acknowledge that bias in myself. I think it comes from the fact that I'm an 'any undead all undead' player. If damage is down across the board leading to less rocket tag and more grinding battles of attrition, that absolutely favors undead with our recursion. If base leadership matters more, then that also favors undead with our immunity to psychology, unbreakability, and access to leadership penalties. Even if sphinxes or blood knights or whatever have been knocked down a peg or two (and with the available support spells and healing I'm not sure I'd agree with that in the blood knights' case), 9th edition still seems like a great time to be undead, for both official and legacy factions.

Great weapons would be amazing on them, sure, probably too good given that initiative 1 is a key weakness to the unit balancing out those 2 attacks base on a compulsory core unit. I'd probably happily pay points for great weapon saurus out of special, though I don't think kroxigor are an entirely terrible substitute there. I don't know, haven't run the numbers on them, mostly I just like their silly skink rules. Saurus can take spears at +1 attack per frontage, exactly the same bonus that chaos warriors get out of additional hand weapons, and saurus don't have to give up their shields to get them. Yes, the warriors do slightly out-fight saurus then, 3 attacks instead of 2 isn't as big an advantage as 2 instead of 1, but still not by much AND the chaos warriors are more vulnerable to shooting now, something lizardmen can certainly take advantage of. And yeah, great weapon infantry will out-fight saurus typically, but great weapon infantry are again more vulnerable than shield infantry to shooting AND suffer a strikes last penalty that hurts in many match ups. Not so much in the match up against saurus specifically, but are you suggesting that great weapons are going to be the automatic choice for every unit that can take them? I mean, you might be right if so, I haven't really considered it broadly. EDIT: While Lizardmen aren't getting direct balance updates any time soon, if Great Weapons in general do turn out to be way better than other weapon options, such that non-great weapon units are always worse than great weapon units, then we might see a general nerf to great weapons in the future that could help Saurus out against those opponents. Again, I'm not trying to say saurus are amazing, just that they aren't *bad* when you compare them to other non-limited core melee infantry, and most of the arguments for lizardmen as a faction being bad that I've seen so far leaned a lot on how bad saurus are, and I don't really see it. Especially compared to other compulsory/tax units, the requirement to take one block of saurus just doesn't seem faction-destroying. Anyway, if that was your last post on the subject, thanks for chatting it out with me @Kitsumy. I'm really not trying to be blindly optimistic here or stamp down any nay saying or criticism at all, just the bit about saurus specifically seemed off to me.

Chaos warriors have to pay for shields. And I've spoken of khorne warriors in two other posts already. They have frenzy, which makes them bad. They will charge out of position, waste charges on tar pits and distraction chaff, charge into things that will beat them in combat (causing them to lose the frenzy rule that they paid extra for), charge into forests and be bogged down half the game, block off lines of advance from other units in your battleline, etc. To have any hope of using them in a reasonable fight you have to buy entire separate units just to block off line of sight to units they don't want to charge, which you then have to consider in their points cost. To the extent that warhammer fantasy is a game of maneuver and positioning, and Frenzy is one of if not the worst penalties you can hand yourself in that aspect of the game, essentially handing control of your unit to your opponent. As for comparing to dwarf warriors with additional hand weapons... I'm not seeing 2 hand weapons as an option for dwarf warriors? Am I going blind? Chaos warriors can take additional hand weapons instead of shields, in which case they do beat saurus warriors, though they now have a worse armor save to defend against shooting, meaning more likely to take more casualties on the way into the fight. And saurus warriors can take spears to more or less even that out again (though now they do cost a bit more per unit, unless the warriors are also taking a mark), and the saurus don't have to give up their shields. I'm not trying to say that saurus warriors are amazing or anything. But they are compulsory core troops, and compared to other core heavy infantry, at least those that don't have extra per-x-points limits, I'm just not seeing where they're so bad.

addressed in the other post, but khorne has frenzy, which forces charges even when the only charge option is disasterously stupid. if the warriors have mark of khorne they should never be fighting on their own terms or on equal footing. I guess i could account for that by giving the saurus a free flank charge, but honestly it's just not an apples to apples comparison.

Khorne warriors will outfight saurus, sure. But khorne warriors are frenzied, which means generally speaking you should get to pick what they fight and where. Let them fight jungle swarms all game. Let them charge an msu unit of skink skirmishers and end up far our of position. Frenzy is strong, but even more than how strong it is frenzy is bad. they paid extra points to make themselves super easy to exploit, play around it. Mark of nurgle is a more relevant comparison since it doesn't change how the unit plays fundamentally or come with a huge exploitable weakness attached*. Nurgle adds 2 points per model, so the points are a bit off now, but still. Warriors kill the same 0.22 saurus warriors, only now the warriors had 1.14 models per warrior to start due to the warriors costing more. So 0.92 models attack back, x2 attacks each, 5/12 hit due to mark of nurgle, 1/2 wound, 2/3 get through armor, for 0.256 slain chaos warriors. So yeah, point for point at least saurus warriors still outfight chaos warriors even with the mark of nurgle. "But there's no step up now, models won't all be in the front rank, you can't assume wider frontage for the saurus just because they cost less". Fair enough. But even model for model you're looking at 0.217 slain chaos warriors, which is barely any different from their 0.22 slain saurus. So even ignoring points and looking model for model, saurus warriors come out essentially on par with nurgle chaos warriors even accounting for the fact that the warriors will swing first. And you can't call a core unit that on the odds essentially ties combat with nurgle warriors despite costing 2 points less per model bad. For battleline melee infantry, Saurus are Not Bad. They just aren't. *Nurgle warriors do lose the extra resistance to fear, panic, & terror from undivided. their leadership is decent so i don't call this a huge weakness, but lizardmen do have tools to exploit this.

I'm not convinced that lizards are in that bad a state. Certainly not Saurus Warriors specifically. Most damage is lower across the board, T4 4+ is tough enough for a bastic battleline block that you should be getting attacks back in most cases, and 2 attacks a model at S4 and AP-1 is nothing to sneaze at. By comparison chaos warriors have only one attack each. Like again, battleline heavy infantry vs. battleline heavy infantry, same points per model, chaos warriors striking first with hand weapons kill 0.22 saurus warriors per chaos warrior (1 attack, *2/3 to hit, *1/2 to wound, *2/3 get past the saurus' 4+ armor after ap1 for chaos weapons). the saurus warriors fighting back kill 0.26 chaos warriors even accounting for casualties (0.78 still alive *2 attacks *1/2 to hit *1/2 to wound *2/3 get past the warriors' 4+ armor save after ap1 for obsidian weapons). So even allowing for the fact that they'll be fightig last, saurus warriors still out-fight the equivalent heavy core/battleline infantry from arguably the most melee-centric of the official supported factions even after getting attacked first. If a core infantry unit (not special or rare) outfights chaos warriors both model for model and point for point (same points per model makes for easy comparison) even after the warriors hit you first, then I don't think you can reasonably call them bad. You may need something extra to deal with special or rare melee threats, or core threats with hero support, but you have your own heroes and your own special and rare threats to draw on for that, plus a really fantastic tar pit in jungle swarms to delay anything you just don't want to deal with directly.

I've mostly been pretty bullish, "things aren't as bad as they first look compared to 8e," "try the game out," kind of sentiment, but admittedly witch elves do look pretty iffy. Very vulnerable to shooting, very reliant on their cauldron buffs which can be shut down, and frenzy is more of a vulnerability than a strength - though that's always been the case. There is counter play - dark elves have their own shooty units and forward ranging units to hunt archers and war machines, and the first turn, when shooting is the biggest threat, your cauldron could be out of dispel range, especially if the opponent puts their wizard behind the front line. If they put the wizard in a front line unit, then dark elves do have tools to try to assassinate them. IF we end up in a 1999 point meta you might not always see a mage lord, since most factions would have to choose between a mage lord and a fighty lord. .... So there are probably ways to play around their weaknesses, and maybe formats where their weaknesses don't hurt as much... but yeah, at first glance I'd agree witch elves don't look super competitive. They're at least not too pricey, so you probably aren't shooting yourself in the foot by taking one or two small units of them, but witch heavy armies built around multiple large units with the cauldrons seem more a fun narrative choice than a tough competitive one. That said, you can always run them as DoK in AoS, and a non-witch based dark elf army does seem like it has some other options that look a fair bit better.

I think it's more to depower dwarf & empire lists that jump from 3 great cannons max to 6 at 2k points, rather than any of the 0-1 per 1k options. 6 great cannons isn't necessarily game breaking, but it does powerfully discourage otherwise cool & fun big centerpiece monsters. The 1999 talk is mostly just buzz & discussion I've been hearing from some youtube folks, nothing concrete. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some 1999 point events just to test it, though I currently expect 2k to win out. Personally I kind of prefer the harsher trade offs. Having to choose between fighty and magic lords just sounds more interesting for more factions than an easy default choice of one of each. A world where not every army has a level 4 wizard is also one where level 2 and 3 wizards can shine a bit more. But that's just me.

As mentioned by others, this isn't the first edition where vampires have been forced to choose between armor and spellcasting. with their high initiative and 5+ regeneration a vampire might bank on not needing armor, especially if they invest in a ward save. On the other hand, a vampire who really wants to grind it out in combat might want better armor than the hauberk allows, and so choose to give up casting entirely. I like the variety of builds this implies, and how it plays into old bloodline archetypes, with combat king blood dragon types who eschew magic, von carstein esque balanced builds using the hauberk, lahmian builds that try to avoid the need for armor by relying on wards, beguile, and initiative, and necrarch builds that just buy up casting & support items & powers and mostly aim to avoid melee. Granted it would help if there were more powers available, for instance i don't think there are enough non combat options to make a necrarch style support vamp really worth running over a master necromancer*, but still the outline is there and i appreciate that. If vampires could cast in armor by default then you'd just get a singular do-everything build without these interesting trade offs. It's also worth pointing out that you might not want your fighty vampire lord to be a caster to begin with, so that you can pawn off the load bearing roll of army general to a back line necromancer. This will be especially relevant if 1999 ends up being the conpetitive standard instead of 2000 points, as it might be to avoid potential cannon spam, in which case you won't be able to field both a vampire lord and a necromancer lord at the same time. Then again, unless event organizers step in to make a direct exception, iirc 1999 would prevent lizardmen players from running a slaan, so maybe 2k will be more common after all. *frankly, If I had Necrarch vampires, I'd run them as necromancers. While we're referencing older editions, there's something very 'Warhammer Armies: Undead' about not letting vampires be level 4 wizards, creating a trade off where necros aren't just the inferior option to shave points, that I kind of like. It harkens back to a time when Arch Necromancers like Kemmler and Hellsnicht were every bit as feared in universe and faction defining on the table as big name vampires like Vlad or Mannfred.

We just need to decide which is which. I'd say: Chaos Dwarves: evil (chaos) Daemons: evil (chaos) skaven: evil (chaos) lizardmen: evil (scary, eat peope) Ogres: good (friends/allies to all, festive appetite for life) Dark Elves: good (followers of the rightful king wrongly usurped according to canon) Vampire Counts: good (enemies of the evil Tomb Kings, plus Abhorash was pals with Gilles le Breton, I can only imagin the pdf listing tomb kings as allies instead of brettonia was a misprint that will be corrected soon)

There was another thing I forgot. Saurus and temple guard are on 30mm squares now, and there is no 60x60 square base, so there's no base they could give the slaan that would neatly fit into the temple guard unit, forcing it out to the flank even if it /could/ join. Of course, there *should* be a 60 x 60 square, the slaan isn't the only model that wants one (eg, tomb scorpions would much rather be on a 60x60 than a sideways 50x75), but gw didn't want to make any actual new base sizes, so watcha gonna do.

I don't know about that. IME faction discussion tends to collect in individual threads, and you don't need over a dozen subforums with only one really active thread each. Maybe a subforum each for forces of fantasy, ravening hordes, and legacy armies?

I *did* miss something. Flying units can't join non-flying units, and Slaan are Fly 8. Obnoxious. Personally would have not given them flying - even if their chairs can float, I never pictured them zooming around at high speeds. So yeah, I definitely share this complaint. I don't think it makes them bad or unworkable, they're still going to float around behind their units casting spells, and the temple guard are written to protect slann that are merely nearby, but yeah, from an aesthetic and narrative perspective this new way of running them doesn't feel right. Definitely something I'd take the opportunity to rewrite if I were working on a homebrew Lizardmen Arcane Journal.

Yes, though they do have one magic item, the flayed hauberk, which is heavy armor that a wizard can still wear. And they can ride a nightmare, for another pip of armor from its barding. And since strength no longer reduces armor automatically, a 4+ save still kind of means something. Spells or armor is a pretty tough decision for vampire lords. Lots of power and utility in magic, but lack of armor makes you pretty vulnerable. Then again, if you're not a wizard you can't be the general, which lets you take a big expensive killy vampire lord, maybe on a monster, and throw him into combat secure in the knowledge that your load bearing general is a hero wizard safely buried in a second line infantry block.