Hollow

I'd love to see this. Beastmen units that are inspired by the different realms. In fact, It's something I'd love to see across many of the factions. How is a Ghyran-Gor different from an Uglu-Gor? Using the realms themselves to inform the design of miniatures is a great idea.

I could see something like Necro having a better ROI for sure. If you invest £1 million in Necro and generate £3 million, that is a massive 200% return on your investment. Then something like AoS invests £25 million and generates £50 million, which is only a 100% ROI. At the end of the Day though, Necro only generates £2 million total and AoS generates £25 mil, even though Necro is more "profitable" in terms of ROI. Are you saying something like Necro is more profitable than AoS in absolute terms? Or in terms of ROI percentages?

Whilst I have no insider knowledge, I do think that parts of the internet over-blow the potential "bad blood" between different designers and departments at GW PLC. I also think that some conflate the incompetence and peculiarity of the Kirby years and the explosive growth and systemic changes seen under Rountree's reign. GW is a very different company from what it was pre-2015. Rountree took over as CEO On Jan 1 2015. (GW was trading at approximately 500p per share) today it is trading at approximately 10000p per share. The company has seen ENORMOUS growth, and like so many companies it is struggling to fully understand, cope and navigate that growth. The diversification of products, the explosion of growth during the pandemic and its IP penetrating the cultural zeitgeist have all contributed to more people than ever looking to buy their products. There have been so many outside factors regarding shipping, inflation, conflict etc that they are just struggling to adapt and they are also a company that is terrified of over-expanding due to what happened regarding the LOTR bubble. I think some in the company are waiting for the other shoe to drop. I just hope that they take some of those stacks of cash they have and get to work ASAP on new manufacturing, storage and logistical capabilities.

The quality of the stuff from the ToW so far has been great. I do think the way it has been released has been pretty poor. They should have had a combat patrol-type mini-game as part of the rules similar to 40k and pumped out 9 Battleforces for the 9 core factions to begin with. Then started with secondary waves of resin, single kits and MTO. It would have allowed people to pick up the faction they want and to get building, painting and playing. They seem to consistently leave so much money on the table. There is clearly a conservative aspect to management that is terrified of overproducing. I believe this was all but debunked when various Youtubers jumped on the rumour only for GW and Amazon to release a statement just a few days later that completely contradicted it. The rumour was ridiculous anyway and didn't have any connection to how a PLC operates. I just do not believe that this can be the case. Which other possible systems would AoS be trailing? HH?

I think that depends on how they approach 4th edition. If it is a reset similar to what happened in 40k 10th edition. Then the order in which we see new battletomes could be completely detached from the order that factions received an update in 3rd. I do not know, but I suspect that we will see a launch of AoS 4th very similar to what we saw for 40k 10th and all 3rd edition Battletomes will be for 3rd edition and we will have Battlescroll packs for each of the factions to kick off 4th. TBH I think a few lighter weeks regarding releases is a good thing if it means that GW can focus on sorting some of their stock issues.

There is a difference between disagreeing and searching out every single post a person makes to put a sly passive-aggressive reaction next to them. Not one or two to express genuine confusion or disagreement, but literally on every single post over and over again. But I suppose the easy way to stop it is just not to post.

Not for some apparently. I'm a little confused as to why some people are confused (Although not Doko, he is perpetually confused regarding everything it seems) Do people seriously think that the BoC range will remain unchanged and available as is, in AoS and ToW simultaneously throughout the life span for ToW 1st edition (however long that is) and AoS 4th edition? Like... come on. It's like a big flashing neon light that some are just refusing to see.

Yes, and like the other Warbands from Beastgrave, they are no longer available.

I wasn't making a reading. I was just stating the exact situation with Grashrak's Despoilers in reply to a question about them. They are not available on Warhammer.com and that is a direct quote from the Element games website. Make of it what you will, but this is the current situation regarding the kit.

and the fact we have just had an entire edition called "Era of the Beast" with no Beasts. 😅 Just how many tea leaves does a bowl need to have?

Grashrak's Despoilers are no longer listed on Warhammer.com. They are also not available from any of the online retailers. With the likes of Element games stating- "This product is currently unavailable - it is likely that distribution has ceased".

The "evidence" is just inferring from what is happening across the ranges. Fantasy models being removed = squatted, refreshed = update of the same or redesigned High Elf = Lumineth. BoC being out of stock online and in stores. No significant updates or releases for the faction over 9 years. (I don't consider a herdstone, endless spell, warband and single character "significant") BoC being a core ToW faction with a unit roaster and army photography within ToW publications consisting of the entire BoC range. BoC range are all models from Fantasy. There is a clear distinction between factions of ToW and AoS. Add several rumours from various sources and I think there is a pretty strong argument that this is indeed happening. The real question is how it will be done. A complete chop/squatting of the faction and range in AoS completely, moving the current range to ToW and a new AoS-fied Beasts faction to replace it, or for removal of the BoC as a singular faction and more beast units appearing in other chaos factions. What I do not see happening. Is for BoC to stay within AoS as they are and to be launched in ToW using the same models.

Indeed. The BoC model range is being squatted from AoS and being ported over to ToW. What remains to be seen is if BoC as a faction will remain in AoS under a new thematic identity, be removed entirely or be folded into other existing Chaos factions. That's my bet. That is the writing I see written on the wall and time will tell.

Oh, come on. That's like saying there are Dwarfs in each setting which means they are the same! These are iconic Warhammer design "races" seen in every Warhammer setting and two of the most popular, it's completely different. It is just not the same thing. We have also seen through photography and the literal O+G model line that there is a there is ToW Orc and Goblin type and an AoS Orruk type. It's like saying because there are AoS Orks and 40k Orks that the same faction is in each game. It's not. There are Orks in both, like there are humans in both. Also, I don't think there are factions in AoS called Orc & Goblins or Chaos Warriors... are there? Nope.

Eldritch Horror, terrifying bestial monstrosities. Something along the lines of these little dudes I just whipped up on Image Creator.

I have read similar takes several times and think you have it backwards. AoS is the driving decision for ToW. The core factions in ToW are made up of the factions not present in AoS. The legacy factions in the ToW are the factions that are in AoS. Regarding BoC, I don't think it is the case of ToW studio saying to the AoS studio, "Hey, we want BoC in ToW, drop the faction from your roaster so we can have them in our setting" I think it is much more the case that the AoS studio said "Hey, we are going to remove, re-do or completely redesign this faction (we don't know which it will be yet) you can have this "old" one for your setting" It's not that the ToW is dictating where AoS goes and what it will have in its roaster. It's the other way around.

Yes. I actually think that now is the perfect time with AoS 4 launching and AoS 10th year approaching.

Practically it has already begun. The entire range apart from AoS units the Vanguard and Beastord are out of stock. They aren't in stock in Warhammer stores. They generally aren't in stock in Online retailers or FLGS. If you want to start and purchase a BoC faction right now. You can't. 9 years of support since Fantasy is not what I would consider a "quick cut"

Well, I see it differently. I wouldn't say that High Elves are in AoS. High Elves are a Core faction in ToW. Whilst there is clearly a thematic continuation from HE to Lumieth, they are two different factions, with two different model lines, for two different game systems. (The same thing that might happen with BoC) So the HE range was "squatted" from AoS. In the same way, the BoC range will be. The only question is if Beasts will get the Lumineth treatment or not. I would like to see that happen, but I could also see them just folding Beasts in AoS into the existing Chaos factions.

Is there? If the faction name is changed and every model in the line is removed and a new faction with completely different models, units, thematics, aesthetics, characters and play style takes its place? Like... ok. I feel like semantics over terminology are irrelevant at that point.

I completely disagree. I think a new purge is exactly what AoS needs. With the approach of AoS 4 and the release of TOW, it is the perfect time to further differentiate the two settings and clean up the AoS lines. I honestly think that GW has been too slow in removing, replacing or renewing fantasy miniatures across the AoS line over the last 9 years. I would much rather see the faction lines across the AoS section of Warhammer.com be filled with fully supported, in-stock lines, with older, under-performing kits being removed. Make space and free resources for newer kits and refreshes. I'm not a fan of how bloated and unwieldy GW product lines are. Use MTO for splash releases of older kits. The reality is that I think it is unrealistic to support product lines, that together, are composed of thousands of different products. It's absurd. It's a logistical headache that I think genuinely affects the ability of GW to properly explore new and creative design space. 2025 will mark the 10th Anniversary of AoS. I hope that towards the end of next year, we will have seen a purge of the majority of older fantasy minis from the AoS line. (Of course, there are still some that work within the AoS line, but the older Dark Elf kits? Purge baby purge!) I have thought for a while that Grand Alliance Chaos would be best served with a total of 8 factions. Blades of Khorne Disciples of Tzeentch Hedonites of Slaanesh Maggotkin of Nurgle Slaves to Darkness Skaven Beasts of Chaos (Renamed with a complete aesthetic, thematic and plastic over-haul) Chorfs At the center of the 8 Mortal Realms lies the 8 points. The Chaos Grand Alliance with 8 factions. There is a numerical elegance to that which appeals to me. With those 8 factions, the Grand Alliance would be very well served. 8 factions would allow for significant differentiation for collecting, modelling, painting and playing. They would also have AoS thematics and aesthetics. A more general point regarding AoS and GW model support. People are different and want different things, some on this forum openly state that for AoS they would prefer there wasn't anything genuinely new added to the game, just updates to existing kits. Some think there should never be any new factions and GW should focus on the 24 that exist, tweaking and updating existing factions. Some think that if GW releases a model it should be supported with rules and retail presence until the heat death of the Universe and any attempt to move on from that product is like spitting in their mother's face. I personally do not agree with any of the positions above. I think that GW should be far more up-front and ruthless about the fact that some models will be released, supported for some time and then potentially removed. Done. The expectation that some GW customers have that if GW moves to "squat" something it is somehow a personal attack and they do not care about their customers is utterly absurd to me. A PLC like GW does not just stop selling products that sell well. I also feel as though it would mark a stagnation of the game (and for the designers) if things just essentially stayed the same. With just updates and refreshes to existing concepts. I don't want AoS to just have updates and refreshes year on year. I want GW to explore and take risks within the AoS design landscape. If something isn't working, dump it! move on and try something new. I have said this before but It's a philosophy that I really think would best serve AoS. The game and its various product lines should be treated like a Bonzai tree. Frequently watered, often fed and annually pruned. What does pruning do for a tree? The Tree can stop producing fruit or new vegetation, dead leaves and branches sap energy from the rest of the tree. Too many dead limbs will result in a sickly tree that produces very little fruit or new foliage. Tree pruning is the best way to encourage new growth and increased yield.

I actually don't think it is a bad decision if sales aren't good enough and supporting them as they are is taking potential resources away from exploring new things within AoS. (I say this as someone who owns the entire BoC line)

I don't think they need to justify anything. Having Beast models within AoS can easily be done by expanding the 4 mono-god Chaos factions (Blades, Disciples, Hedonites, Maggotkin) with mono-god Beast-like units. Hedonites already have the Slaangors and Disciples have the Tzaangors. I feel like this move has been signposted for quite some time. I have talked about it a lot and it is clear as day to me that with BoC being one of the Core ToW factions, their models would be repackaged and sold under the ToW banner. I would also argue the point that Beasts as they currently are in AoS are a "popular" faction. I just do not think that is the case. With Skaven getting a big update and rumours of Chorfs on the horizon, I could see them wanting to cut the fat from the AoS Chaos line.

Oh for sure, although my first thought regarding MTO is that they normally come in standard white Citadel boxes rather than ones you might see on a shelf in a retail environment. (Although I understand that MESBG MTO has been like this for a while) so perhaps not.

Not just another wave, but GW confirmed that the boxes would remain as permanent parts of the range.