broche
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Posts posted by broche
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14 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:
The dispel needs a natural 8 though, right? It's not an easy dispel. I've been holding off from running it because I'm nervous about armies like Seraphon or Lumineth unbinding it
My bad, i tought it was a 5 to cast lol. I'm getting old my memory is failing haha. In that case it's not bad (but hard to cast your you too so it's unclear).
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@PlasticCraic I'm curious, i'm guessing you use the spider rider as your main screen? Not a bad idea considering you deny an easy battle tactic for your opponent.
Like mentionned in my post, i'm not a big fan of the big stabbas in Icebone. I would personnaly favour more pigs / morboys. Between the 12 big stabbas and spiders, it's almost 900 pts that don't benefit much from Clans ability.
About Shackle, each time I read it i like the ability. Then I realize it will just get dispel almost every time and move to something else so I guess i'm voting for option B lol.
I'm also dubious about amulet on the Big boss, doesn't seem that usefull?
Good luck
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9 minutes ago, Shirtripper said:
Forgot the mega in mega-gargant--I'll be using a kraken eater for kicking objectives.
I'm curious what's the mechanic to include a mega gargant in BS? i didn't know you could!
edit: NM found the rule in SoB tome. Really nice!
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1 minute ago, Shirtripper said:
Thanks for this! I'll be playing a Bonegrinz list with a gargant and 30 arrowboyz next weekend and trying for the triumph each game. I'll report back how it goes!
You use the Aleguzzler Gargant?
Not sure of your exact list, but if you go for triumph you might consider using an extra enhancement for the immune battleshock one. Since we have low bravery, and you can use it after failing a battleshock it's much better than Inspiring presence (and it give you redundancy for 1 turn if you need it)
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So I now had the chance to try every sub-faction. At first, it seemed evident to me that Icebone was the way to go (unlock a good battleline + nice army wide ability). Yesterday I elected to try Bonegrinz for the good old Arrowboy ( I won't report because i was playing against squig and it's almost an autowin), but i did some math hammer before the game to analyse the weight of subfaction, and give rationnal to wich unit fit better in each.
Obviously we all know Icebone now and I will use it as my baseline. To measure the expected damage increase from the allegiance, i've use the simple metric of expected damage against 4+ save, and calculate the increase in damage per attack for different scenario. Depending of the hit and rend of unit, you get a value between 0.0185 and 0.555 extra net damage per attack.
Translate into a more gamewise aspect, you would get the following value (in extra net damage after save)
- 10 charging boars (assuming 8 in contact): 2.66
- 10 charging morboys (10 in contact): 2 (2.66 if you give them +1 to hit)
- 4 big stabbas: 0.22
So Icebone basicly act like a flat damage increase for all your army. The better it get the higher the save you're up against. It also lose value on high rend unit (big stabbas, Rogue Idol)
Now let look at Drakkfoot
Drakkfoot is hard to analyse because it can be very good against some army, but useless against other. So you need to consider it first to unlock Morboys, who are IMO plainly better than savage orruk. But to put a value on their ability is quite tough. I think it safe to assume that most army will have at least 1 ward save (amulet of destiny is everywhere). So let's take an army with no ward except the amulet (like Ironjaw or Son of Behemat). So against a Maw Krusha with amulet it can worth an extra 10 damage spike (assuming you're going for the MK kill) or even 20 damage against a Megagargant. But i think that right now the biggest argument for Drakkfoot would be the high prevalence of Lumineth in the meta (they have a 5++ ward save bubble).
High rend value (Big stabbas and Rogue Idol) gain value elect to go Drakkfoot.
Finally Bonegrinz
Bonegrinz is interesting as it allow you to go for a 30 arrowboys block (as well as boosting them). But how does it translate into damage efficiency? Fortunatly it's relatively easy to calculate.
Imagine you don't want to use bonegrinz, but still want some shooting and elect to use 30 arrowboys (20 + 10). Assume you use all out attack each shooting phase, you're 30 arrowboys will output 11.25 net damage against 4+. That is an extra 4.6 damage per shooting phase over your 20+10 unbuffed arrowboys (with a +1 to hit on the 20 block as well). Moreover, you need to consider the extra potential you'll get from Unleash hell. Sure it's just 6 up, but 90 shoot will still net you 3.75 net damage after save (or 2 more than the 20 arrowboys shooting), or an extra 6.5 per battle round. Not to shabby.
In the list I was using yesterday, I was betting high on triumph for the +1 to wound as well. So the first Arrowboys volley of the game can do 30 damage before save. That is a nice damage spike and will put pressure on lot of army. Since early game damage as more value than late game damage, this can be enough to justify this allegiance over Icebone.
In summary, while Icebone is still the default clan to go (simple overall bonus, good in most matchup), both Drakkfoot and Bonegrinz avec their niche as more specialized list.
Thanks for reading, and hope you learned something
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Nice report!
I like the addition of spider! I want to test some monster in my BS list as well (toying between Mangler, Troggboss or Aleguzzler as I don't own Spider). I dont dislike the Rogue Idol, but I find it to be on the expensive side for what it does (and I hate that it doesn't fly)
I think it fit nicely to fill the battle regiment slot (and unlocking a battle tactic, always nice). I also like varying the type of model. A problem i've with pure horde is that it's longer to play, sometime leaving you less time to think over important decision.
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12 hours ago, Lucyferiusz said:
Yes
Although, I played only 4 games with them since the book came out, so I'm hoping for some average rolls in time 😉
6-7 is awfully low (is average output is 16-17 with the 4++). As Plastic mentionned it's high variance so a 6-7 once in a while is bound to happen, but 4 game in a row it is quite unlikely.!
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1 hour ago, Iksdee said:
Isnt a Wurrgog Prophet a better pick over a Killbow to get rid of big things now for BW? Or Arrowboyz just because more bodies on the table? I am trying to justify buying these units but i cant find a really good reason at the moment. 2 units of boltboys and a shaman is a decent point sink.
I use a Wurrgog as well. Wurgog doesn't really fill the same role. It's more a defensive mortal bomb. Boltboys provide long range output and overwatch. The two combined will give hardtime to any army to break your bunker. If they charge and kill your screen they are now sitting in front of a 16 mortal bomb, after taking 8 mortal from unleash hell.
20 Arrowboys will do a meager 10 damage (often with no rend) if you use a CP (6.67 without). Boltboy have mortal output (even without a shaman) and their 2+ base hit mean they can snipe small heros (with Shaman it get really consistent). But the true value here is really the overwatch (one of the reason i don't like arrowboys that much). Unleash hell on Arrowboys do negligable damage, while Boltboy can do 8-10 mortal when buffed by their Shaman. Having as much action in your opponent turn is what will separate good from great army in AoS3 as it make armies much more (one easy exemple is double turn mitigation) Boltboys give you this flexibility and is one the reason i would play Big waaagh over Ironjaw for exemple.
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3 hours ago, Iksdee said:
Would any of these be worth it in a big waaagh list without all kinds of support?
I use x6 boltboys and 1 swampcalla shaman in Big waaagh. In my opinion they're almost an autopick in BW. Killbow is much more niche. Reason i would use it would be to fill the Artillery spot in Battle regiment to lower the drop for exemple. But you'll get much more value from boltboyz overall.
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you mean in a Kruleboyz list, or more a big waaagh?
In pure kruleboyz both are usefull.
Boltboyz are much more versatile and stable (ie you'll get a consistent output of mortal/rend 1 each round)
Killbow are much more volatile and specialized. The damage output is really high agains monster. You can reduce the variance by including 2-3 of those.
As a rule of thumb I would say include Boltboyz first, then complete with some killbow.
hope that help!
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15 minutes ago, Shirtripper said:
The way I've explained it is units are deployed, then we can move. Set-up is completed after deployment and after all other pre-first round effects are resolved. So you deployment > move > set-up is completed > objectives captured.
Interesting. Still a bit unclear to me tough. I'm looking at Alpha beast pack, and it's not explicit that end of deployment and end of set-up are different. I feel it could get ruled either way in a tourney.
After armies have been set up but before the first battle round begins, you can make a normal move of up to D6" with each unit in this battalion.
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On 11/14/2021 at 4:44 PM, Shirtripper said:
Before the first turn, players capture objectives that they have models on that their opponents do not. The way most missions work, an 8" pre-game move can let your units jump on an objective and capture them before the first turn starts.
Super interesting. But i'm looking at the exact ruling on this:
After deployment but before the first battle round begins, half of the BONESPLITTERZ units in your army (rounding up) can move up to 5". If both players can move units before the first battle round begins, they must roll off, and the winner chooses who moves their units first.
After set-up is complete but before the first battle round begins, each player gains control of all objectives that are within 6" of any friendly models and more than 6" from all enemy models.
It's nobodies turn, so both effect happen at the same time. After deployement and after set-up seem to be simunaltenous effect? (just looking to have the right argument if this arise in a game haha)
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12 minutes ago, Krule Tyrant said:
While true on the damage and mobility they do bring more bodies for holding objectives and for screening. Something i am at least looking for in the dps check/swamp army
true for objectives. For screening i'm pretty sure you will get more reach with 5 board than 10 orruks tough. For infantry i tend to throw in morboys. Less defense, but cheaper and do lot more damages.
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29 minutes ago, Krule Tyrant said:
Do you think that a more wound heavy foot troop list can work in a similar fashion? I have had great success (4-2 currently) against my buddies just by the sheer amount of ****** i can put on the board but I worry against more serious lists.
Honestly right now i dont' think you can justify savage orruk on foot. They are marginally cheaper per wound than boarboyz (8.25 vs 9.33) but almost do twice the damage with 12'' move + access to potentiel rend 2.
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Tought I would share some feed back. Played a mirror match yerterday, so not that relevant on a strategy perspective. But getting the in game vibe of waaagh point build up might interesting: My list:
SpoilerAllegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Grand Strategy: Waaagh!
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Smelly 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)**
Wurrgog Prophet (150)*
- Artefact: Glowin' Tattooz
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)**
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)**
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)**
- Pair of Brute Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)**
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Savage Big Stabbas (80)
2 x Savage Big Stabbas (80)
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Battle Regiment
Artefact
Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140
Drops: 6
He was playing something really similar, but with Rogue Idol and Kruleboyz balista over Gruntas and Big Stabbas and Wurgog.
So the first thing worth mentioning is that waaagh point from charge and combat are much more important than before (every unit generate them instead than 10-mens units like before). We both had d6 + 3 WP per turn and both rolled a 1 on first turn. I tried the heroic ability and missed (he didn't). By then end of R1 we both each an extra point for charging and engaged unit at the end of the combat phase. On his turn (2.1) he roll a 4 or 5 and had 1 charge (his Maw Krusha) to end the turn at 14, just shy of the +1 to hit. At the start of my turn i roll a 4 as well and are now sitting at 13 WP, with most of my army in good position to charge. I managed to charge with 5 units (18 at the end of the charge phase good for the +1 to hit) and 4 engaged unit at the end of the combat phase, triggering the +1 to wound for next turn).
So my reflexion was that round 1 should be pretty conservative for Big waagh army. The objective is really to minimize your loss so ensure you head into round 2 and 3 with as much unit as possible. Unlike in v2 where you could rush for turn 2 +1/+1 (using the command ability) in v3 we have to rely much more on combat. On the other hand, the fact that we have easy access to mighty destroyer really boost the army mobility compared to v2. With that in mind my overall game plan with the army would look like:
turn 1: Spread and put pressure on objective (watch out for enemy shooting by checking distance and deepstrike). Grind some stuff with shooting. Don't overcommit big point chunk (ex. Maw Krusha)
turn 2: Charge if you can trigger the +1 to hit. If not redeploy wait 1 more turn.
turn 3: Fight
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On 11/9/2021 at 5:39 AM, Kasper said:
I just find it difficult to create a proper 1 drop list - First off you are forced to having "just" 2 Warchanters - I generally like to bring 3. Second you have a cap of 5 troop units and with ours being so cheap, the 4 reinforcement limit is actually a big burden.
An option is to bring a monster. Rogue Idol, mangler squig or aleguzzler giant can take optionnal monster spot (rogue Idol is the most expensive but arguably the best choice)
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Both more solid list I think. Personnaly i prefer the second (i might even drop 1 warchanter for more bodies but it's arguable)
Another variant would be to switch warlord for command entourage. Going from 5 to 4 drop would give you who go first pick against other list with Warlord, at the expense of 1 CP per game
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@5kaven5lave I'm not sure i see the synergy in your list. You have lot of shooting that will not benefit from mid game big waaagh bonus. I think big waaagh objective is play heavy melee with some shooting. With so much shooting you could almost justified Gordrack tough
i also think Wurgog is worth the extra investiment over the wardock.
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On 10/22/2021 at 1:49 PM, Erik Sorbonen said:
really think the army has potential (even arrowboyz without Bonegrinz, being cheaper than every battleline unit without being battleline and thus not giving the battle tactic to the opponent. They are still ok holders, one of the cheapest screens we have and do some poke, being also ok in combat).
Yeah they are not bad. the've increase in my ranking as you can use them as chaff that put some pressure. I don't think it's worth using bonegrinz anyway as Icebone mortal is just superior than extra shot. I currently use 3 units of boarboys as battleline (10-5-5) and a mix of Arrowboys-Morboys and big stabbas. You can deploy in two bubble with stabbas + wurgog acting as support for your infantry. I did a test game agains Ironjawz and he could not really deal with the wurgog's mask. I honestly think army withouth shooting will have a real hard time dealing with BS.
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4 hours ago, AlmGandix3 said:
My question now is, how easy is it to get all 10 into combat?
pretty tough. I think the best you can do is like 7 (7 vertical front model with 3 horizontal in the back for coherency). So to get 10 in combat you would need to squeeze them between 2 or more ennemies units. With spear you could get all 10 rider (6 front 4 rear) but boar in the back row could not attack
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So no change in FAQ mean Glowing tatoo / amulet still work on Wurgog so we are still a good army
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3 hours ago, Scurvydog said:
It now states you can issue the same command up to 3 times in the same phase. The 2nd and 3rd time will just not cost command points in the same phase.
Wow this is better than expected
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3 hours ago, Clanger said:
Anyone having any success with Ard Boyz heavy lists? Or lists without 2 Mawkrushas?
My collection is very AOS2 rather than what we are seeing at the moment.
I think ironjawz currently support a wide variety of competitive list. Classic single Krusha list with mix of ardboys brutes and gruntas are still very good. Beside 2 warchanter in every list, you can really mix up the rest and have success
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@bonzai some nice trick. I like the idea of alpha beast pack with rogue idol combined with restless tracker
AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
The stupid thing with Maw Krusha is that there is a huge power gap between the 3+ and 4+ save. This should be at least a 50 pts difference. I truly hate when they make mistake design as big as this...