Grailstorm

Awesome to see so much activity here! There was some chat about Pegasus Knights a while back. Obviously they are way overcosted, but they do have two things going for them: they can keep up with the king, and they are one of the best units in the game for grabbing objectives. Obviously a King-led Bretonnian army plays around the charge, because we want that +1 to hit with as many things as possible. Pegasus knights can be great for actually managing to get a charge off on the exploding turn. They can fly with the king, shielding him from unwanted charges, and be ready for the big turn. 3 Pegasus Knights can do 10 damage on average charging with a +2 from the King. Bump that up to 20 damage on average with 6 Pegasus Knights. Coupled with their maneuverability, for that one big charge, they’re not completely horrible.

Any army that can make you strike last and generate extra attacks on 6s for free is inherently competitive assuming balanced points, because these are two of the most brilliant abilities in the game. Khorne players have to spend 8 tithe points to get the attacking ability. The summoning is the icing on the cake. I’m sure lots of people would jump ship. But equally, if I was creating an army from scratch and I could choose any allegiance rules from any Battletome, those two Slaanesh ones would be right up there.

Well the points have only just updated so that’s natural. Recently there’s been Northern Invasion, where there were plenty of Sequitors too and that used the new points. But it makes no difference, they’re still cheap for what they are – and in many ways the points increase is inconsequential, because the Arcanum got reduced anyway. Anything that can fight first and fight twice will be better, but that’s a ridiculous mechanic and a whole other conversation 😃

130 points for 10 wounds, multiple damage 2 attacks, 4+ save and complete re-rolls to hit or save is not expensive in the slightest. With re-rolls to hit, five sequitors do more damage than a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster on average. With re-rolls to save, they’re one of the tankiest units in the entire game. As battleline. What more could you want? They would get taken by any army in the game. I’m not talking about Gav – I didn’t mention him at all. This is purely about the effectiveness of Sequitors. They are incredible, in a Stormcast army or as allies in any other army, because they have great stats and innate abilities that work with or without the Stormcast allegiance. In terms of them not being used in tournaments, that’s just not true. The top two Stormcast lists at LVO 2019 had them. There were four Stormcast players in the top 20 at CanCon 2019, including a 5th place, which used Sequitors. In fact 3/4 of these armies used them. The most recent lists I looked at are for the ETC, and they’re being taken there too. The lack of Stormcast armies in the top 10 of tournaments recently has no bearing on the effectiveness of Sequitors as a battleline unit. It is a sign of the advancing game and overpowered new abilities that have emerged since the new year.

They are taken in almost every single competitive Stormcast list for a reason. If your 10 sequitors are getting ground down by 20 clanrats, you’re very unlucky.

I don’t know whether you’re just arguing for the sake of it or not, but probably best to go to PMs rather than derail the topic if you’re interested in this. I love comparing models and will happily chat Keeper damage vs other units (and how it beats most things in the game) – but I made this topic to discuss Slaanesh summoning.

Nothing in the game is as durable as the tank Verminlord, unless it’s a GuO or buffed up Stardrake. As for damage output, the Keeper is far and away better than most things in the game not called a Ghoul King – even before he attacks twice.

There is no situation in the game where sequitors are weak. They’re easily one of the best units in the whole game, regardless of faction.

I find that the Prime is always worth it. From turn 3 onwards he can one-shot most things in the game. His ability to grab objectives is fantastic. From turn one he can be a brilliant mortal wound platform. It’s the versatility that makes him. He will have a job to play in any game you play, and regardless of how your opponent sets up or what they have, the Prime can do something to counter.

I would argue that anything that provides an unfair advantage is inherently broken, and there is no argument against Slaanesh summoning being unfair in my opinion. The comparison between Slaanesh summoning and all the other forms of summoning is important regardless of different mechanics. Fundamentally they are all the same: you earn currency and exchange it for models. Where Slaanesh becomes unfair is that they have such easy access to their currency, get it so quickly, and don’t get punished for bad play. Two of my regular opponents are Slaanesh and Khorne and it’s hilarious how obscene the difference in summoning speed is. Slaanesh can get two Keepers before Khorne gets one Thirster.

You can’t be serious.

I’ve re-read the FAQ, and it looks like you can play them as Everchosen allegiance. The battalions are Everchosen battalions, so as per the FAQ can be taken in an Everchosen army as allies but without using the ally point pool, as you mention. But they’re still completely legal to take. You just cant give any of the heroes an item, as they’re allies. If you take them in a Chaos army, then they are not allies at all and can be given items as normal.

The difference in the two mechanics only highlights the power of Slaanesh summoning, and the power of their allegiance abilities. The fact that blood tithe is better spent on boons is irrelevant.

I think they just need to make you lose all points when you spend any, like Khorne.

Am I missing something obvious with these? How do you get them in a game? Or are the majority of them illegal in matched play? Unless, when it outlines the necessary “mortal hero” and “mortal units”, you can only really use Archaon and Varanguard in the battalions? It’s just the pictures show multiple non-Everchosen units.

It’s just infuriating turning up to a 2,000 point battle and facing 2,500-3,000 points...

What has your experience of Slaanesh summoning been like? In my games, it is far too good. There are no other armies in the game that can get so much so quickly. I don’t think I’ve ever played a game with less than one extra Keeper and at least another unit or hero. That’s at least 500 points of additional free units in every single game. It’s also automatic. You have to kill the heroes, and in doing so you allow them to summon more. There is no downside whatsoever and no punishment for just kamikaze charging Keepers in, like there is with other monsters.

I agree. It’s similar to Ironjawz too, and I think it’s common that people allow that to trump.

Does the Quicksilver Potion trump the Slaanesh ability that makes you attack last? I’m aware that if you strike first, but are made to strike last, the effects cancel each other out. However the Quicksilver potion is unique in that it doesn’t say you strike first. It says you fight immediately. With this in mind, if you get charged by a Keeper and are made to fight last, can you override this and strike before the Keeper?

A fair point, but I think you also have to consider the issue is magnified when you introduce allegiance abilities and compare stat profiles because all the armies that can attack 2x also happen to have extremely good allegiance abilities. If we’re agreed that attack 2x is the best combat command ability in the game, then for allegiance abilities and stat profiles to have much relevance the armies in question would need to have worse stats and worse allegiance abilities to balance out the power of their command ability. Slaanesh can fight 2x all the while making you fight last and getting extra attacks on 6s. The maths shows the latter is roughly equivalent to +1 to hit on every unit in the army and +2 to hit on units of 20+. It’s also worth noting that this ability is the final and most expensive reward that Khorne can buy – and Slaanesh get it for free. I would wager these two allegiance abilities (which come in addition to others) would be taken by any army in the game. So it stands to reason they are some of the best allegiance abilities in the game. So now you have an army with fantastic allegiance abilities that also has the ultra-powerful attack 2x command ability. Warscrolls are generally on par with each other across the board for the most part, but for me the power swing that attack 2x brings to the table is massive.

This is precisely the point, though. They’re clearly not. What units accounted for it? Bloodthirsters? Bloodcrushers? Bloodletters? Any points changes are minimal and reflect warscroll updates. Some actually got cheaper, even though they got buffed *and* got given the ability to attack 2x. It’s the same everywhere. Ghoul King? Remained the same cost, even after getting huge buffs and getting the attack 2x ability. The average warscroll cost across every army has barely changed since points were first introduced. Abilities have got better and better, but points stay the same.

Not sure what you’re getting at here. There has been no major change in points since the introduction of attacking 2x, despite it being up to 5-6 times better than any comparable command ability depending on the target unit.

The armies are clearly not balanced around the fact they can fight twice. The points cost for all units are roughly the same as before the ability was introduced. In some cases, they are lower. It wasn’t my intention to compare Ironjawz as an army to other, newer armies. I was just using them to illustrate the power of command abilities. I’m not complaining about the power of Khorne, Slaanesh or FEC. I’m bemoaning the fact that this specific command ability is ruining the game. The Megaboss command ability is great – and was one of the better combat command abilities in the game until the addition of attack 2x. Now, this new ability nukes all previous combat command abilities. +1 attack? +1 to hit? These are nothing in comparison. The fact that some armies can spend 1 CP to use such a hugely powerful ability, and some armies cannot, is the definition of imbalance. Especially when the reward is 2, 3, 4, or even 5x as good. Imagine Nighthaunt could make Bladegheists attack 2x rather than adding one attack. Imagine Ironjawz could make Brutes attack 2x rather than adding 1 attack. When the cost of an ability is the same, it needs to be roughly equivalent to the reward.

That’s not the issue. Whether you deal with it or not, it’s just flat out better than every other possible combat command ability. So as soon as it’s introduced, it’s a big deal. Now that it’s on three armies, it’s a huge deal. As soon as anything with attack 2x gets into combat, you are dealing with the combat power of two units for the price of one. There is no such thing as just dealing with that if you are a combat army that doesn’t also have that same functionality.

I can’t escape the thought that the introduction and prevalence of “pile in and attack 2x” command abilities are ruining the game. The fact that they are not open to everyone means that if you’re a combat army that doesn’t have it, you’re effectively screwed. The ability to choose a unit (multiple times with multiple command points) to attack twice is far and away better than any other combat focused command ability I can think of. It’s especially noticeable when I play my Ironjawz. I love my command ability. It’s great. Getting +1 or +2 attacks is tremendous fun. It feels great when you pull it off well, because it requires strategy and positioning. However, picture this. A Bloodthirster attacking 2x is like a Megaboss using 6 command points. A Keeper attacking 2x is liike a Megaboss using 6 command points. A Terrorgheist attacking 2x is like a Megaboss using 6 command points. You get the picture. Even picking a solid unit to attack 2x can only be matched by 3-4 command points from Ironjawz. Wrathmongers, Reapers, Bestigors, Minotaurs, whatever it may be... to match that with Brutes, I would need 3-4 command points. And that’s before you get to the requirements of having 4-6 units around you. Giving FEC such easy access to it was one thing. Giving each new army that comes out makes it ubiquitous. And if you rely on combat and don’t have it, you don’t really stand a chance. When Ironjawz get updated, they no doubt will have some form of “attack 2x” thing as well – because GW have now made a game where combat armies need to have it, or you are at a disadvantage. What do you think?