PlasticCraic
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Posts posted by PlasticCraic
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Not knowing much about Knights: would expensive models translate into an expensive army?
I know in AOS it's not generally the Big Things armies that are expensive to collect: FEC and BCR are actually (relatively) super cheap to buy into.
It's large numbers of expensive troops that tends to make an army prohibitive (see: Witch Aelves, Hearthguard).
I wouldn't be shocked if a 2000 point army looks something like:
- Bonegrinder-sized dude with King Brodd and generic Gargant King options. Let's say 460-520 points (Maw Krusha / Gordrakk) and GUO / KOS price tag of AUD 230. You'll probably take one or the other in your army.
- New Gargants, either as 3 options in one kit or three separate kits. Say 320 - 400 points (Thundertusk / Stonehorn level), coming in at AUD 180 ish (similar to a KO Ironclad / Idoneth turtle). Let's say you're taking 3 of these, because New Toys.
- Then you've got the good old Aleguzzler. I'd love to see them packed up in 2s again, because they are expensive for what they are, but most likely we'll be asked to pay the current price of AUD 83. Let's err on the side of caution and say he gets better rules for the same 160 points. You'll probably only have room to fit in a couple of these once you've taken all of the above.
- Maybe a Battalion, maybe an extra Aleguzzler.
I've got that coming in between AUD 900 and AUD 1000 for a 2000 point army, plus the book and any terrain, less any Allies you put in there.
Which is obviously a lot of money, but would probably be at or below the median for an AOS army I would think? Especially if you already have a couple of Aleguzzlers sitting on your shelf, ready to join the fray.
PS if I was going to make a completely unfounded prediction, maybe the competitive build looks nothing like that, and it's like 2 of whichever new Hero is the best, and about 10 Aleguzzlers to spam their amazing new rules and Battalion 🤣
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6 hours ago, Skabnoze said:
I never really viewed Giants as my "thing", but I will fully admit that over the last ~25 years I will generally stick a giant into just about any goblin army that I can - because I really like the model and the concept of the monster. But I can see how you might get that idea since I have generally been one of the only giant enthusiasts willing to come to the defense of the Aleguzzler whenever discussion about him pops up on the forums.
Yep, there's been a few times when you've talked Gargants on here, and also given the Snotlings like me an education on their WHFB rules. I personally had the 4th ed starter box and kind of collected the models without playing (I was too young really), then took a 20-year break until AOS dropped in 2015. I remember the old black and white fallen Giant template in there, and at the time I saw owning one as an unimaginable luxury. The fact that they were part of Orcs and Goblins was part of why I'm still an orc guy.
For me they're iconic because of that, and I really hope they retain some kind of falling down mechanic (I'm sure they will), without it being crippling like the current one.
Also in case anyone was wondering, I've had a Gargant die (I lose the roll off) and fall into a second Gargant and kill him (I lose the roll off) and fall into an Arachnarok Spider and kill him. Domino Rally right through the heart of my army 😬
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23 hours ago, Skabnoze said:
Now they are making an army of all giants and I really have no idea how I can be so lucky that GW has pretty much answered all of my wishes for Warhammer.
Mate I'm absolutely rapt for you. I know from chatting on this forum over the last year or two how much Giants mean to you.
I'm super excited too; but I know they really are your "thing".
I honestly can't believe it's happening. Hats off to them hey.
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What I'd personally like to see moreso than new Gods, is cross-pollination of the races between Gods they worship, and the GA that they sit in.
Specifically we are still trapped by a one-to-one mapping of old WHFB armies to Grand Alliances. If you were some kind of Elf in the old game, you have to be Order in this one, even if it's a completely new army. That's way too narrow-minded.
For example it's established in the lore that there are humans in Ghur who worship Gorkamorka and paint themselves in green warpaint. Let's see them explored on the tabletop.
Similarly, Death could have Aspirant Vampires: mortal humans who idolise Vampires, and serve them in the hope of being turned.
If it was still April 1st I could have move on to Duardin stilt-walkers who follow a Cult of Behemat, but you get the point 🙂
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12 hours ago, novakai said:
I mean everything GorkaMorka touches becomes a super godlike entity, so while he the main God, destruction has things like Da Bad Moon, The Spider God, Everwinter, and Maybe more aspects that doesn’t make it truly monolithic.
Yep there's loads. Behemat and Ymnog are Gods in their own right to Gargants (which we'll hopefully find out more about soon). Firebellies worship the Suneater aspect of Gorkamorka. Like you said, the Bad Moon is an entirely separate, physically present deity that travels around the Realms.
Destruction is not lacking in volume of things to worship, and the supremacy of Gorkamorka has not been an impediment to the creation of yet more in the setting.
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6 hours ago, KingBrodd said:
I could see Archaon of course being taller on Dorghar with his wings, but I'd like to seem rival him as well.
That's exactly where the Bonegrinder sits currently. He's actually bigger than Archaon, other than the wings pointing upwards.
I really hope we find out more this weekend 🙂
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6 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:
so in what way are ogors and orks remotely on the same side other then both being neutral to the chaos order fight and not dead?
They all worship Gork (and possibly Mork).
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Boing Boing
SpoilerAllegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Leaders
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Fight Another Day
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak
Loonboss on Mangler Squigs (280)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)
- Moon-cutta
Battleline
5 x Squig Hoppers (90)
5 x Squig Hoppers (90)
5 x Squig Hoppers (90)
Units
15 x Boingrot Bounderz (300)
15 x Boingrot Bounderz (300)
15 x Boingrot Bounderz (300)
Battalions
Squig Rider Stampede (140)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 150-
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Really interesting topic. I guess you could put Sharks in the mix, because it's one of the few warscrolls where GW has been bold enough to points-drop a cool but underpowered unit into usefulness, rather than making them wait for a new book.
On the Destruction side, it's mainly missed opportunities moreso than truly bad units:
- Ironguts still lack a proper Warscroll ability. Their "Down to the Ironguts" ability was almost a meme, regularly held up as a shining example of terrible rules that would never make it to print in a modern Battletome. Awkward.
- Brutes are squeezed out between Ardboyz and Gore Gruntas. Taking away the Klaw and rend -2 simultaneously removed a lot of their character and usefulness. Similarly their Duff Up Da Big Thing rule is pretty weak now, especially since this unit already hits on 3s and already has access to multiple +1s to Hit.
Overall they just lack "something" to make them into the combat blender they need to be, in order for them to have a true role. What you are left with is a unit that is painfully slow and cripplingly vulnerable to Battleshock, so why would you bother when they only have the same attack profile as your other Battleline?
But neither of those is truly bad - in fact they're quite good, just short of what they could have been. It's Gnoblars that have to be in with a shout for worst unit in the game.
They are unapologetic trash, with zero combat output, terrible durability (1 wound on a 6+ save) and abysmal bravery. Absolute garbage in every aspect.
But you know what? You still see them in lists, and rightly so. Every army can use some disposable trash, especially when it's cheap trash (5 points per wound) and just as importantly, comes on 25mm bases. Screening and capping Objectives is what they bring, so even the humble Gnoblar has an important role.
And that role is wearing a Deathstar to the face, so your proper units can hit back harder.
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It's a very sad situation, I'm sorry for anyone who was looking forward to this, worked on new armies, or is out of pocket for travel and accomodation.
Excellent points by @Athrawes which hopefully helps people understand why it was the right decision. But it's a real shame.
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Here's that write-up on the Summer Smash tournament win for those interested:
https://plasticcraic.blog/2020/03/04/interview-with-joel-graham-winner-of-summer-smash/
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I like it! Same size base, obvious what it's meant to be, I'd be happy to play against it.
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2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:
This is exactly why I'm really liking the idea of having the Maw Krusha and Rogue Idol in same list. By putting mighty destroyer on a model that is so efficient on his own, even if there is nothing else within range to mighty destroyer he can always do it on himself. I think all of the cross synergies that apply to the list with gore gruntas and rogue idol apply to the list with maw krusha and rogue idol + you aren't paying the mega boss tax. Doesn't seem like you advocate that, and hoping you can expand on that a bit?
Is it the fact you have to use your 1 artefact slot on ethereal amulet as opposed to buffing the wurrgog? Or do you think having that buffed shooting is really important? Really curious to here what you have to say on the matter, because it seems you have more practice/experience with this style list then most.
Yeah 100% I think that could work, although it would porbably leave you light in other areas. I have ran a Maw Krusha and Rogue Idol list myself and it was great fun, and no joke. Like you touched on, you will make sacrifices elsewhere to achieve it, but I'm definitely interested to see any lists you come up with on that theme.
5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:Does this also apply to pure Ironjawz as far as his "role in the army" and how to utilize him to the best of his ability? I feel like mine does a lot of nothing and dies... sometimes. It'****** or miss. I did kill 9 Tzeentch flamers, but my opponent rolled 47 dice for each wound he inflicted and on 5+ got a mortal bounced back but I don't think that's how that ability works since flamers only have 2 wounds each so I think at most it should have been 18 dice rolled...but still...
Yeah I think he's done you there! The core rules specify that you allocate wounds to a model until it is slain, and then stop. So I'd have said he can't roll more bounce-back dice than there are wounds in the unit?
But that's also a good illustration of why I find the Arrow Boys so hard to drop. Mathematically, their output is less efficient than the stuff they are competing with, but there are quite a few cases floating around where you'd really prefer to ping away rather than fight!
6 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:Very interesting examination. All arguments on which I agree, but for the second one there's a thing to notice: against shooting maybe the Idol must hit before the enemy begin to cut of your bodies. So 99% in the first turn.
ps: I'm dying to know how one of your teammates managed to beat Changehost in the final (readed on your blog 😄 of course)Yep, always worth noting that there are exceptions to any rule! And @Garuun is the person to speak to, he rolled over Changehost not once, but twice on his way to the podium with Big Waaagh (and hopefully will be writing a guest piece for the blog about his experience).
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36 minutes ago, Aelfric said:
Are you referring to the legends Warscroll, because that has the Orc keyword and has no mounted version. If there is an updated warscroll for the Orruk Warboss can you let us know where it can be found as I only have the GA: Destruction one. Thanks. Also, if there is an update for the Warboss on Wyvern, as I was thinking of allying one in for Gloomspite (I always have spare CP to use up
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If you take a look at the GA Destruction Errata, you should see it in there bud - although it's also showing the updated Warscroll ("Oct 2019") on the app for me?
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Hi @Bloodgut
I'm running the Warboss with Waaagh Banner (if you click the link to my blog you'll see I recently podiumed with him). However you are unfortunately also missing something.
Specifically, he has a new updated Warscroll, which moved him to wholly withins (and stopped you spamming the Command Ability). But on the plus side, the timing of the CA is now at any point in either player's combat phase.
Beyond that, he's not really competing with the Megaboss for his CA. His CA is definitely much better than the Megaboss, especially in Big Waaagh. The reason the Megaboss still sees play despite that, is for backdoor access to Mighty Destroyers, via the Brutish Cunning Command Trait. For that reason, I run both Bosses in my own Big Waaagh currently.
CPs are scarce in this army and he's CP thirsty. If you're running Bonesplitterz in there, you'll probably need some for IP for example.
I do also think that a lot of people don't own the model / can't be bothered converting, and he's probably just not on some people's radars. But I do agree that he's really good despite that, and I do run him competitively myself. Although I'll be honest, he's right on the cusp of being kept in the army or not.
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39 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:
Would your assessment of the Megaboss on Maw-Krusha apply to pure Ironjawz too?
I think the equation changes slightly in pure IJ (including pure IJ running under a Big Waaagh). Specifically you don't have a Prophet with stacking +1s to cast on his modifiable horde-clearer, and you don't have other BS units (30x Stikka boyz) to benefit from Wardokk spells and dances. So in that situation I think they are more like a true Rogue Idol tax, and he starts to price himself out of the equation.
So roughly speaking I'd say a Maw Krusha is more efficient in pure / mostly IJ lists (under either allegiance), but the Rogue Idol can compete with him in truly mixed Big Waaagh armies.
I'm still interested to see Maw Krusha Big Waaagh lists with mixed forces though - the Wardokk and Stikka boyz are so damn efficient, they are worth slotting in with or without a Rogue Idol in my opinion.
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2 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:
I also tried a list with the idol yesterday afternoon, against a mono shooting kharadron list. Well, it's definitely a bulldozer, but it basically has two flaws:
1) costs more than the maw ... someone could object surely, but while for the maw you spend 460, for the idol you spend at least 400 + 150 + 80.
2) works the same way as a rocket launcher: once fired 40 inches then it's far from any other type of support.
Agreed on point 1) to an extent
What can make the whole thing work is if you craft a list with cross-synergies. And what I meant by that is, when you have other uses for the Megaboss and Wardokk, they are not simply a sunk cost.
Specifically, I would always have a shield wall of 30 Savage Orruks. They also benefit hugely from the Wardokk +2 to save combo, and in the early rounds I'd be more likely to juice them up than the RI. He also generates a Waaagh point every turn. He also jacks up the +1 to cast on your Prophet so you can blast through his Warscroll spell on a 10+. Pebbles also further enhances the Prophet. So with those cross-synergies, the 80 points is so much more than a Rogue Idol tax.
The Megaboss is more of a tax, it's true. You can still get juice out of him beyond just giving Pebbles a Mighty D move: I always include Gore Gruntas in my lists, so they benefit too. He also has a slightly different role as a backfield support Hero (who can kick back a bit) that buffs people along with the Warchanter as they go forward in waves, whereas once your Maw Krusha goes off into to the wild blue yonder, he's up and away.
But it's definitely fair to say that you wouldn't take him if you had a Maw Krusha with Brutish Cunning (unlike the Wardokk which I would argue you take anyway). So I think 550 vs 460 is the true points comparison, but it can still work if the rest of your list works in with it. For example the RI and Megaboss don't demand further investment (read: Ethereal Amulet) in the same way as a Maw Krusha, so that liberates a resource to use elsewhere to offset the extra cost.
Also agreed on point 2) to an extent
That's a big part of playing this list: once you fire him forward, you've played your ace. Timing is everything. Early turns he has value in buffing your wizards, and threatening every area of the board with that big move and hitting over the top of enemy screens. He's also a trap / deterrent that can hit over the top of your own screens and fight twice, i.e. you can shut down a whole area of the board from being charged by deploying him just behind your lines.
You don't fling him out there until you're happy that he will have a game-defining impact. You've had 2 or 3 buffed magic phases out of him, he's got the 2+ save and flying move, and there is a crucial target within Mighty D move reach. That's not really a flaw though, as much as a playstyle. He's not a turn 1 rocket - he's a menace and buff piece early game, and a mid-game clincher.
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On 1/17/2020 at 9:02 PM, Eevika said:
GIve me a good destruction book from the perspective of a Troggoth, Grot or Ogor and ill read BL The troggoth short story in Malign Sorcery is one of my favuorite things ever
By all accounts, this is fantastic. I've just ordered it.
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8 hours ago, Marcoangelo33 said:
@PlasticCraic Great job at Summer Smash. Looks like the green boyz showed up! Great to see the hard work of testing and playing, pay off. Anything specific insight or observations from your games that you would like to share. Perhaps surprising interactions or units that did better than expected?
Thanks man! Yeah we smashed it, can't believe we took the whole podium between us!
I just did a whole big write-up, check it out:
https://plasticcraic.blog/2020/02/27/summer-smash-tournament-review-big-wins-for-the-big-waaagh/
Joel and Dalton will be doing interviews for the Blog too, hoping to get those published within the next week.
I don't know if it counts as a surprise, but it was definitely a highlight when 6x Gore Gruntas wiped out 60 wounds from a 109 wound army in the first Battleround :-)
And my biggest mistake was underestimating Stonehorns...(for me) it's one thing "knowing" they count as 10 models, but another thing to look at a table mid-game and assess them as such. I was lucky to get away with that one.
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19 hours ago, Kasper said:
So a couple of days late, but Big Waaagh completely smashed it at Summer Smash in Australia, getting #1, #2 and #3! Congrats btw.
@PlasticCraic
I'm a little sad that the lists don't have their spells selected. I'm curious what the Wardokk had in the 1st list. Cheap access to Gorkamorka's Warcry, or is he there to stack saves on the Savage Orruks so they can tank an objective?
Thanks Kasper! Yeah it was a great result all round.
At this event you picked your spells each round (!). Joel was using the Wardokk purely for save stacking.
I took Breath on the Weirdnob every time. Partly cos it's the most important spell so I wanted the reroll, partly because if your opponent is just standing there waiting to be hit you can switch gears and put the banging 6s on instead.
The Wardokk I switched between Brutal BS (mainly if Arrow Boys were going to need to be buffed), and Kunnin BS (if I wanted to stack saves). Depending on opponent and Battleplan.
Dalton did the same I believe, but with an extra Wizard he took both BBS and KBS.
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On 2/22/2020 at 5:42 AM, broche said:
hey @PlasticCraic ever played against Bonereaper with bonesplitterz? Never had a chance to test the matchup but I susptect it's pretty bad.
Yeah I've beaten them (and lost to them) with my Drakkfoot army. They don't reroll saves against shooting so that helps your cause. And I found that Pebbles could knock them on the head pretty effectively with that rend -2.
It's not a bad matchup if you just whittle down their units to a few models then bang them on the head.
For a real anti-OBR build, Ben Savva in the UK beats them every time with his Bonegrinz. Now he *is* Ben Savva, so there's that, but he is running a low drop Kopp Rukk build to achieve that.
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On 2/22/2020 at 7:20 AM, svnvaldez said:
Does a ranged unit have any place in a list like this? or is it a waste of the +1 +1 melee.
Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Maniak Weirdnob (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)
Battalions
Ironfist (160)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 181Yeah I personally still like the Arrow Boys in builds like this. It's still a combat heavy army, so you're getting plenty of juice out of those +1s
Quite often I'm glad to have a bit of damage before the combat phase, so I'd find it hard to drop them
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Yep Savva is a superstar, but I think Ian Spink would strongly disagree that he's the only one! Rode those pigs all the way to your Masters 😃
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How good is this book by the way.
Big Waaagh with Ardfist, Big Waaagh combined arms approach with Pebbles, Big Waaagh we've not even talked about (I'm playing around with Wyvern and Teef Rukk builds for example).
Ironsunz balanced lists, Ironsunz double Maw Krusha, counter charge shenanigans for days.
Bloodtoofs toolkit lists that Marco is now throwing around, Bloodtoofs Alphastrike lists (still possible if you choose to go down that path).
Choppas MSU Brutes lists, probably a lot more to explore in this Clan.
Drakkfoot hard counters to meta armies, Bonegrinz pop 'n' block melee armies. Balanced Icebonez armies with 8" scouting moves and infinite movement pigs.
I'm loving that #AOSLyf right now!
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Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣
in Destruction
Posted
Yeah I was thinking that. Kind of like how BCR have a Mongolian raiders look, with Scandic-style naming.
It's not unusual for them to have element A from the world around us, fused with element B from the world around us, fused with some originality and craziness, so the whole thing has identifiable influences but still is unique and more than the sum of its parts.
And I can echo the thoughts of others that I absolutely love the storybook angle!