Requizen
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Posts posted by Requizen
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7 minutes ago, Kasper said:
What agenda is it you are trying to push? A couple pages back you were crying at the thought of Bonesplitterz ignoring Nighthaunt Ethereal despite only 2 units in the entire book having a rend. Now you are complaining about Ironjawz having Warchanters. The book isn't even out yet. Jesus christ man, really?
Some people just enjoy being mad
Personally, I'm wondering if there's any real reason to go non-Clan Bonesplitterz, since the bonuses for the subfactions are all just really solid and there are few real downsides. It's not like Stormcast where you miss out on Staunch Defenders and have to take crappy artifacts, all the ones given are pretty good and there doesn't seem to be a "can't miss" trait.
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58 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:
My first thought was 8 Big Stabbas for 400 points. Pre game move them 5in. Cast: Breath of Gorkamorka, Bone Spirit, Brutal Beast Spirits. Use CA: for a 6in run and the BS Waaagh.
That's a very nice alpha strike imo (22in move before charge T1).
I find it incredibly important that in a tournament setting you have the ability to auto win a game if your opponent deploys poorly and you get turn 1. This to me seems like it might do the trick.
I do kinda feel that you could do this with any unit. Especially with the attack buffs for Savage Orruks and Maniaks. Straight up 10-15 Maniaks + Breath + Buffs can threaten basically any flank in the game, and will likely shred any monster to bits thanks to Berserk Strength, especially if they don't have any way to debuff you first.
Not to say Big Stabbas aren't absolutely terrifying, because they are, but they're definitely not our only heavy hitter now.
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Damage output on a unit is by and far not the thing that makes things overpowered. Mobility, ability interaction, enemy denial, and being able to ignore particular game rules is what makes certain armies and units strong.
Ironjawz were already able to outpunch most armies in the game. Brutes and Mawkrushas could absolutely smash most things in a straight dice-off. But Brutes still move 4", without leaning on multiple rules for lots of extra movement, and they all still just straight fight - no fighting first, no forcing fighting last, no double fight, no fight on death, no returning models, no range, etc.
I think this book - heavily with Warchanters but also with expanded Allegiance Abilities - will move Ironjawz up the power level. But, imo, while they now have the tools to probably make a consistent 4-1 army, they lack the tools that can abuse and suffocate meta in the way that pre-point-change DoK, release FEC, and current Slaanesh do. There's a difference in "statline" power and "game affecting" power.
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Have you thought of using an Ordinator rather than a Hurricanum for the +1 hit bonus on the artillery? Obviously not the same (doesn't affect the other units, not a wizard, etc), but frees up points for more models and mobility while keeping a strong artillery threat.
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24 minutes ago, TALegion said:
Quick question about the Brutish Cunning command trait and Ironfist battalion. Are these usable in a Big Waaagh army, or do you need to be an Ironjawz army to use Might Destroyers?
That... is a very good question. I would say Brutish Cunning would not work, as it lets you use it without a CP, but you still don't have access to the CA in the first place.
Can you use Ironfist in the first place? Big Waaagh requires you to all have the Orruk keyword, and the Battalion has the Ironjawz keyword. But all the units have Orruk? Not sure how that works.
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4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:
That is basically what happened, saying warchanters i overpowered based on that battle report is the kind of attitude creating problems for this game. The Slaneesh player has all the tools to deal with the Ironjawz but chose to just parade forth and get engaged by ardboyz on all fronts. No effort to deal with the warchanters either.
I play against people with this mentality as well who just scream OP because if the raw damage output a model or unit CAN output when supported, while they expect to win with no effort but just moving models forward and roll dice.
If you just move forward with your squishy but mobile and tactically diverse army to just brawl with Ironjawz, then you already lost and deserve to lose. Smart players will screen their units against all the Ironjawz battlelines, and find ways to deny them their buffs, then they have nothing.
Anything with good shooting or magic will also be a gatekeeper, just pick of the warchanters and Ironjawz have nothing, all the power comes from them. I am not saying the damage output cant be great, but the army still have no tactical options worth talking about compared to so many other of the top armies right now.
Skaven will just shoot down warchanters and screen the intial wave of orruks. DoK can actually brawl with them but are better at the objective game. LoN can just put screens in the way, if they explode just bring back the unit for 1 CP it doesnt matter, Ironjawz have no way to reach any important character, the only flyer can easily be denied landing anywhere important. A Good Idoneth player will wait to get first strike, should be easy to plan for with the low movement of Ironjawz if you dont trigger too many MaH.
Ironjawz is the rolling rock from Crash Bandicoot, if it hits you yea you die, but it is not all that hard to avoid that.
Yeah I ended up watching it and it was not indicative of a game at any reasonable level of play. If you engage a fully buffed army on all fronts with all your important models, you've done nothing but make a mistake. The Slaanesh player could have done a dozen things differently and had a much higher chance of victory. Also, his attack dice on his most important models were pretty bonk, so that never helps.
I don't think it should surprise anyone that Ironjawz will beat a lot of armies in a straight up fight - that's in fact the point of the army.
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If it gains the keyword and remains mostly the same otherwise, it gains Warpaint shrug save, which already is bonkers. Plus, it becomes a viable target for Kunnin Beast Spirits and the Glyphdokk dance, meaning you can get it to a 2+ save with both! Plus all the other great things like Breath of Gorkamorka and Bone Spirits.
Imagine a 21" move monster, with 16 wounds , 2+ save, 6+ shrug, halving damage, 4+ against MWs, with 10 feet attack that explode on 6s. Absolutely terrifying!
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32 minutes ago, chord said:
Agreed, to have to spend a CP for such a low chance of anything happening,...
It would be interesting if they flipped the order.
"When a friendly Hammers of Sigmar Redeemer unit is destroyed, roll a dice. On a 5+, you may use the following Command Ability: ..."
That way it's still random, but you're not burning points for nothing. Or, to keep the risk but make it less punishing:
"You can use this command ability when a friendly Hammers of Sigmar Redeemer unit is destroyed. Roll a dice, on a 1-2, nothing happens. On a 3-4, you receive 1 Command Point. On a 5-6, set the unit back up..."
I understand it's a powerful enough ability to warrant the risk of losing a CP, but it makes it way to swingy and feels bad one way or the other.
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1 hour ago, jhamslam said:
It is, but not as good as it used to be.
Basically its your 3 liberator battleline in Hammers of SIgmar (you HAVE to be Hammers for Gavriel Sureheart).
10 - 15 evocators usually in two units in 10 and 5.
Gavriel Sureheart deeptrikes in with the evocators. His Command Ability gives you +3 to charge so you only need to roll a 6 after deepstriking 9 inches away
Knight Vexillor, Relictor, Incantor and Azyros for teleports, prayers and unbinds
Cogsmith + 2-3 Helstorm rocket battery for chaff clearance (only weakness of gav)
That's a version, but you missed a few things:
- Gav's Command Ability stacks, so for every CP you spend you get another 3". That means if you drop down and burn 2 CP you get +6" on your charge, making it all but guaranteed.
- Taking a 20-brick of Sequitors and charging them in can create an instant tarpit anywhere on the table that isn't even bad at hitting things. Removing 40 4+ rerolling saves wounds suddenly showing up in your backfield is not something that all armies can deal with.
- Using the Vexillor lets you start a unit on the table, buff it up with things like Castellant and spells, and then teleport it 9" away from enemies, drop Gav behind them for a buffed up, guaranteed charge.
- If you take the Arcanum on Gryph Charger to make them Battleline, he can also Ride the Winds up behind to provide further support.
Gav with Evos is a solid damage threat, but Gav with Sequitors and Evos means that the focus of the battle is basically wherever you feel it should be. Unfortunately, pretty much all those models went up in points (rightfully so) in the last GHB, so it's a hard list to run effectively. But, it still instagibs lots of armies in the game.
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10 minutes ago, Grimrock said:
@Overread it's interesting because I feel pretty much the complete opposite of you. To me the warcry warbands fit into AoS incredibly awkwardly. Having big unique models like the rocktusk prowler with mostly the same stats as the plains runners doesn't feel seamless, it feels shoehorned in to keep things simple. Something that lets them say there are AoS warscrolls without putting in a bunch of effort. The idea that they will form the core of an eventual chaos release is just truly bizarre to me because they just don't seem to be designed to take 20-30 at a time. Too many mono pose models with tons of detail and character.
My impression was that Warcry was originally meant to be like necromunda. A stand alone, chaos only, game with all new models. Sure the models could be used in AoS, but it'd be more like the rogue trader release for killteam. Then when the details got out and people started complaining about it being chaos only they quickly jumped in and put the other factions in the book. There's such a significant difference in overall feel and flexibility between the base chaos warbands and the non chaos stuff... it seems like the non chaos stuff couldn't have been intentional from the start. Plus we had that bizarre dead zone for like 6 months between the initial info and the actual release that could've given them time to scramble and make the extra campaigns before sending the book to print. Who knows, maybe that's why we saw the monsters and mercenaries book so quickly. That stuff could've been intended for the core book but got shuffled out to fit the extra warband campaigns.
Of course that doesn't mean that we won't see AoS factions rolled in now. That Pandora's box has been opened for better or for worse, and Iknow I'd love to see daemons.
I'd heard that the AoS warbands were initially added because store owners and TOs who got early previews asked pointedly "Where are the other Factions?". But that's hearsay and not necessarily anything truthful.
I definitely agree with Grimrock about the models. Everything having different aesthetics, having strange unit sizes and variable models, having clear Leaders with more details than some Heroes that are just unit champions - they don't seem to slot into AoS that well imo. Like I said, it feels a lot like Necromunda, where they clearly fit with the universe at large but are so distinct that they clearly are made for their own sub-setting.
To me it becomes even more clear when you look at the unit types and weapons in the non-Chaos factions. All the Warcry Warbands are relatively similar - some mooks, some midrange guys, one or two big hitters, one of which is your leader. Cool. But then you get LoN, who have a Wizard who is somehow more tanky than most other Leaders and uses ranged spells. You have Stormcast, who now all have guns, when ranged is few and far bewteen in the "basic" warbands. Gitz and Idoneth have Cavalry (but somehow Bonesplitterz and others don't?), which looks kinda crazy next to the chumps in other warbands. It honestly feels like they were made for another version of this game than the warbands that are designed for it.
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Just cuz I haven't seen seen them talked about:
- Brutal Rukk: Big Boss + 2-5 Savage Orruks or Boarboys: units near the Big Boss can Run and still Charge (140)
- Kop Rukk: 2-5 Wardokks + 2-5 Morboyz: Wardokk can cast Hand of Gork on top of other spells if near enough Morboyz (140)
- Kunnin Rukk: Big Boss + 2-5 Savage Orruks/Arrowboyz: Can't have more than 20 models, 1 unit can move or shoot in the Hero Phase (140)
- Snaga Rukk: Maniak Weirdnob + 2-5 Maniak Boarboys: Reroll charges near the Weirdnob (120)
- Teef Rukk: Big Boss + 2-5 Stabba units: +1 attack to Stabbas near the boss. (140)
- Big Rukk: Wurgog Prophet + 3-5 other Rukks: Reroll Warpaint (80)
Brutal, Kunnin, and Snaga all seem pretty reasonable to me. Kop is good but a lot more Morboyz than I think I'm willing to take. Teef is a bit pricey, but Stabbas are still fairly cheap and strong, so probably worth if you go heavy on them.
Is there a world in which we get a reasonable 1 drop army? Big Rukk with 1 Brutal and 2 Teef Rukks:
'Un Drop
Wurgog Prophet
Big Boss
Big Boss
Big BossSavage Orruks x30
Boar Boys x5
Boar Boys x5Big Stabbas
Big Stabbas
Big Stabbas
Big StabbasBrutal Rukk
Teef Rukk
Teef Rukk
Big Rukk1880/2000
Not great, but it is technically a one-drop that has 8 Big Stabbas and a nice blob.
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1 hour ago, Malakree said:
As the Greenskinz warboss has an AoS warscroll and gbh 2019 points it is legal and will remain so until they say otherwise OR gbh2020 whichever comes first.
As I said above. It depends on the exact wording of the allegiance inclusion rules. Personally I expect it to be unusable in any of the warclans allegiances.
From viewing the GMG video, it seems to say that Big Waaagh units must have Orruk, so currently Greenskinz are usable. We'll see what that means in the coming days, however.
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1 hour ago, Overread said:
I fully expect Warcry to be like Killteam - ALL the factions can play! The differences being that its got a more complete campaign and game system; uses cards to speed up and make setup much more easily managed for newbies and also has "unique" models in the Chaos forces
Was that the intent? I was always under the impression that it was more like Necromunda or Bloodbowl - a distinct game with distinct factions. The current AoS factions added in during launch seemed more like a way to get people to try Warcry, rather than turning Warcry into "AoS but different".
It's clear that the Chaos warbands are better designed and balanced from a gameplay perspective, and it's almost arbitrary which AoS units/faction got picked over others.
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There's a high chance that Greenskinz get changed on Saturday to no longer have the Orruk keyword.
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I'm looking at 30 Arrerboyz in Icebone, since they get "improve Rend by 1 on a 6 to wound". Should make a really scary ranged threat with exploding hits on the Weirdnob spell and Burtal Beasts.
I want to play around with points, as I think Big Waaagh can benefit us as well but needs to build up on Points to get going.
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Just now, Wazzuli said:
Also app has the updated warscrolls!
No Rogue Idol yet
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38 minutes ago, cplhicks said:
I grabbed the points from GMC video review.
Savage Orruk 120-300
Savage Orruk morboys 120
Savage Orruk Arrow boyz 120
Savage Orruk big stabba 100
Savage Orruk Boarboyz130
Savage Maniaks Boarboyz 140
Maniak Weirdnob 120
Wurrgog Prophet 160
Savage Bigboss 100
Wardokk 80
So mostly upgraded with points remaining the same or sligt increases to match power.
I think we're gonna be quite good
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3 minutes ago, Souleater said:
Boarboys lost hit and run.
Wurrgog prophet lost the CA for pile in and fight.
Good catches. Boarboys are likely still better since they actually can deal ok damage now and are faster.
Prophet is... probably better? The CA was good but positional, having extra CP and a better spell is probably overall stronger.
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Anyone working on a comprehensive list of changes?
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Bonesplitterz Warscrolls updated on the NZ site! Arrowboy link is broken but here it is fixed: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_orruk_arrowboys_eng.pdf
Pretty much everything is a buff across the board, with a couple being sidegrades:
- Wurrgog Prophet: +1 Wound, +1 Attack, 4+ per turn for extra CP. Fists of Gork is straight upgraded, casts on a 5+ with a 24" range now, 10+ cast is MW on 4+
- Wardokk: Bit of a sidegrade, you pick the dance, but it goes off on a 3+. Healing, +1 to save, or +1 to cast/dispel/unbind.
- Maniak Wierdnob: Huge upgrade. +2 attacks, Bone Spirit changed to exploding 6s to hit (unmodified) on a 7+ cast. Biggest change? Casting reroll is changes to reroll cast, unbind, dispel per turn instead of one per game. Very reliable Wizards now, and with a dope spell.
- Big Boss: CA is now unmodified 6s deal 2 hits instead of generate an extra attack, start of combat phase, melee only. +1 attack to his weapon, still has Let Me At Em. Arrowboys need Maniaks for exploding arrows now, but overall still good.
- All Boars are now 12" move
- Boars are +1 hit and +1 wound on the charge instead of reroll wounds.
- All Banners are now flat +1 Bravery instead of +2 in combat. Sidegrade.
- Morboyz: Lost Deff Ride, but gained +1 attacks (both profiles combined), and get +1 attack at 15 or more models.
- Savage Orruks: +1 attack on both weapon types, +1 attack at 15 or more
- Arrowboyz: No change to the bow, slightly better melee, +1 attack to Bow at 15 or more models now
- Big Stabbas: Sidegrade. Changed to 3/3+/3+/-2/d3. d6 against monsters. Final Fling only goes off on a 4+ now. But, they can Run and Charge. Still good.
- Boarboys: +2 attacks to both rider weapon profiles.
- Maniak Boarboys: No longer pile in at end of your combat phase, but rider weapon attack doubled. +1 attack at 5 or more models.
Big Stabbas probably got the only "downgrade" but are still playable, especially with Run + Charge. Everything else is a straight upgrade or upgrade with tweak.
Can't wait for the rest of the book!
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28 minutes ago, broche said:
At the level of damge we are looking at, shooting magic and even summoning might become irrelevant:
On the contrary, with enough shooting/magic/summoning, melee damage is irrelevant.
-If the Warchanter gets shot/magicked off the board, no buffs.
-If the Boyz get thinned out by shooting/spells, or debuffed to hitting on 5+ or worse, doesn't matter that they're damage 2.
-If you kill 40 skellies and then they just get summoned back before you charge something else, that damage doesn't matter.
-If Stormcast force you to fight 3 Aetherwings before you reach the important units, damage doesn't matter.Footslogging melee damage armies are among the least reliable things in the game, as there are multiple tools designed to prevent things like Ardboyz from reaching important targets, or sometimes even anything at all.
Not saying the army will be bad, it seems like a straight improvement and they're already playable, but top of T1 is a stretch.
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20 minutes ago, broche said:
With what is spoiled so far i see Ironjawz becoming top t1. The new warchanter ability is just totally insane.
Unlikely. They're still a melee-only (outside of spells) army with no summoning, rezzing, or teleporting as far as we know.
Khorne has a similar setup (mostly melee, heavy hitters + ok blobs) but also has summoning rules and high model counts with Bloodletters, Reavers, and Maraouders - and they're pretty well mid-high tier.
Granted, Ironjawz mobility seems to be higher overall than Khorne between the CA and MAH, but we'll have to see.
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15 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:
As for the big waagh I remember reading or hearing Ben say something about waagh point mechanics. On a roll 1 of one the points reset to 0. On a 2-5 it halves and on a 6 it stays on the current level.
On another note: at the end of the game on twitch the IJ player puts back his dead MBMK on the table right before the game finishes. I didn't get what he says while doing it and there is no talk about accumulating reinforcement points or such......
Waaagh Points have two functions as a resource: passive benefits and spendable resources.
You get a stacking set of bonuses depending on how many Points you have. These include bonuses to Cast, Charge, Hit, and Wound. These bonuses don't "drain" your points.
You may choose to use certain abilities once you gain enough Waaagh Points, such as "Da Big Waaagh!" shown in the article. You can use that ability once you have 24 Waaagh Points, and at the end of that phase, you roll a dice. On a 6, you keep all the points, and therefore retain your passive benefits for next turn. On a 2-5, you lose half your Waaagh Points, retaining some benefits next turn. On a 1, you lose all your Points, meaning next turn you're weaker, but can generate them again.
It's actually pretty tactical for an Orruk ability, because it's going to be a balancing act between generating, benefiting from passives, and potentially burning points for stronger effects.
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2 hours ago, PJetski said:
Don't forget:
"Can I cast my best spell?" No
It's a really oppressive playstyle, and I feel bad when I roll over people that aren't prepared for it. I believe the only thing keeping it from dominating the entire meta is that it has a very low tolerance for misplays, and most people aren't skilled enough to pilot it to the 99%+ flawless play it requires.
The main weakness is still blobs + summoning imo, the only games I feel are extremely difficult for me are when I clear off objective holders and they summon 20-40 more on before I can outscore. It's really only an issue with LoN and Slaanesh atm, occasionally Khorne/Nurgle/Seraphon but not as often.
13 minutes ago, The World Tree said:This is why I stopped using Anvils with the new GHB. I'd hoped they would open up new routes of list approach but they doubled down on it. I don't like the gaming experience it creates anymore
Yeah I really enjoy it as a tournament list but no one at the FLGS likes it. Like, at all.
Which is why I'm swapping to Orruks for a bit
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AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
I think the biggest difference is Icebone or Drakkfoot.
Also note that Bonesplitterz will be stronger early game - the pregame move and starting with Warpaint is excellent, especially since the Big Waagh takes a good amount of time to build up. Once you generate Points, it's excellent, but I think the Turn 1 and potentially Turn 2 will be quite rough, unless you go all in on Point generating Heroes (and potentially even Gordrakk).