[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

14 minutes ago, Derek said:

@DocKeule  so I’m not sure how you wouldn’t make your charge with eels in ironrach you would set them to run and charge turn one if you want them to get up the board,  auto run them 6 so you’re 20 inches up the board and then have a base +2 to charge from flood tide and the musician with a reroll.  Now as soon as your opponent realizes what you can do of course he’s going to be deployed way back but if he has to deploy forward for some reason you reap the reward.  If you want to be sneaky about it take a battle mage from cities and get another +2 to run and charge off the spell.  So now those have a base +4 to charge and can reroll themselves because of the champion.  

Or take Lotann and grab the +1 to charge and run isharann ritual as an extra when you need it with fount of willpower

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

I can't help but be intrigued by Ionrach...
turn 1: 6 block of morsarr blast in and MW, do their charge damage. king can stay within 12" and do his thing.

turn 2: king uses ionrach special heroic action, eels can retreat 14", then run 17 (14 + 3) and charge (7) (from flood ride) , effectively, moving 24". But wait! Add in Surging Stream for +1 to charge/run, you're moving another 1 and increasing your charge odds like crazy. Meet up with the king and pop the high tide ability for whatever else is there. If you don't need the movement, grab Riptide ritual and drop D3 MW on a 4+ on your retreat out during turn 2. 

turn 3: we all know what happens on turn 3 if things didn't go poorly.

It feels like a way to fix a lot of the issues with Morrsarr, namely that they just poop out once they're in combat. This makes the all-in on turn 3 even more so. I need to try it out though.

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

12 minutes ago, Orbei said:

Its challenging to read your posts with the formatting you use, which may cause people to skip or gloss over what you write. The mix of white highlighting, bold, and caps in this latest post is pretty off-putting. 

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

I've found @vinnyt analysis, presentation, and passion nothing but excellent in this thread. It's made playing IDK much more enjoyable for me. As always, loved the comparative analysis above and hope you continue posting as for me, it's been aces.

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

> If you’re a fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, we will have a major reveal coming on Monday, pitting two allies of Order against one another in a battle of the elements.

😮😮. Fyreslayers (fire) vs. Idk (water). Get hyped! 

source

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

My opposition to sea is he’s just too swingy. Everything on the warscroll says D3 this or D6 that. Points can’t really make up for reducing risk of that kind of rng.

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

1 hour ago, Chronos said:

Retreat and charge of 12" flying is unreal.

Also his healing ability and ward just got a bit better now that the FAQ came out.

I just started finishing off my IDK, can;t wait to get some games in.

Okay this all helps my train of thought. He’s a agile, specialty piece who primarily buffs and with cloud of midnight distracts and tarpitts. I think it’s a good piece for the army. I don’t see a viable replacement, that +1 to wound is huge.

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

So a few more practice games in and things are stabilizing for me. One constant however is my Eidolon of the storm seems to be weaker in combat than I always expect. It is hardy, with the 5+ ward and all the healing it always is around being useful, but it’s not the hammer I keep expecting. The +1 to wound aura is hugely important - but am I missing something with its attacks?

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

Fantastic feedback, as always @vinnyt, I've got my tournament tomorrow so I'm cramming 😂. Few more questions...

Predator’s Domain

You could drop a ship outside of 9" if possible in your back corners to prevent teleport space, and garrison a ship with a Tidecaster to take that at the end to grab an extra terrain control. And you have two of those.
 

Quote

Defensible terrain features are controlled by the player who has any units garrisoning them (if a defensible terrain feature is not being garrisoned, then neither player controls it)

I might try this GS because I just feel like all the other ones are too hard to pull off. Good thought on it. Worst case, I am flying around in Rd 5 trying to grab as many as I can to get 5 of the 8 (maybe 4 of the 8 + 1 with the boat to take it).

Setting up Reavers/Thralls wrt Coherency / on objectives

I found myself unsure of where to place the Namarti foot troops. I ended up running the reavers/thralls to _their_ side of the objective to screen it off from the enemy to stop them from walking onto it which did work a bit until they died, buying me at least a turn. Is it optimal to hold the thralls on my side of an objective leaving space for bigger hammers to land? It would probably help with numbers on objectives for longer - but reduces their use as a screen. Do you generall screen them out in a single line, or two ranks 1" apart with triangles at the end? With Reavers, I'm always fighting the balance between 9" out to do unleash hell, and keeping them safe on objectives for numbers.

Rolling and Rerolling all those darn dice

Any tips on going faster? I have 2.5 hours per game and I have to roll SO MANY DICE with the double re-rolls it's crazy! I suppose memorizing war scrolls is my only shot, I'm working on that haha.

Other than that, I think I'm ready to roll :).

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

Played a game against Nurgle last night and felt like I took a nice step forward in how to use the infamous @vinnyt list :). Few questions as a result of that game..

Run and Charge (or shoot)

On 11/27/2021 at 10:04 AM, vinnyt said:

One goes to auto run something 6" since I can still charge and it guarantees me board control.

I found that during turn 1 I was a bit stuck on what unit to run (and subsequently charge OR shoot). The OR is the hard part in that rd 1 ability when flipping the tides. The sharks seem most logical to not shoot since they can move 20" and then charge, giving a ton of board control. But this means they can't shoot which makes them reliant on some other shooting to chip the unit they're going into for the bonus from Bloodthirsty Predators. The turtle has a nice profile on both shooting/melee, but it only moves 10" so behind the screens I felt like it couldn't really open up and run that far anyways.

Grand Strategy

Amazingly my game was tied, all the way through battle tactics. It came down to me taking Hold the Line and not getting it because, well, as you stated "I don't care if they live or die." Turns out, I did since the grand strategy does matter. Which GS are you all finding works well? Vendetta/Prized Sorcery seems appealing since my Tidcaster hides far away and uses Arcane Corrasion, it might survive in most games - even against shooting where Forgotten Nightmares is in effect, it would make it hard to shoot the general off the board. Of course, deep strikes would basically give this away if my tidecaster was left in a corner and zapped off. Beast Master feels relevant because the turtle is so hardy and frankly I think if I lose it I'm going to have a hard time winning anyways?

Soulscryer Seeker of Souls

I noticed the rule says you *must* add +3 to all units within 3, and they *must* land within a half inch of whatever enemy unit is selected for +3 to charge. I would have pulled other units into that charge I didn't want to, and it removed some flexibility around which units I splitting up on a specific objective. Is the Seeker of Souls sort of a one-time thing early game before all the units get junked up together?

Not enough bodies on objectives

My namarti did a great job screening, lasting at least 2-3 rounds. But it was very hard with sharks flanking either side to have enough numbers to take objective from Plaguebearers (which were fairly buffed up from abilities + hero synergies). The mathlaan ended up with a unit of sharks and the soul scryer + 10 thralls (which were slowly dying off) but it still wasn't enough to take the objective once the thralls were deleted - Sharks (2x2), Mathlaan (2), Soulscryer (1), and say 5 thralls (5) is still only 12 bodies. They had at least 15-20 with only a unit of Pleaguebearers and a few cavalry there (the fly things).

How quickly should the turtle get involved?

I set up with my namarty in front, the eels behind, and then the turtle behind. The issue was, my turtle (aside from shooting) really didn't get involved into turn 3. It was too far back, and sort of blocked out of moving up efficiently. It got onto a central objective and just sorta hung out because other units were not within charge yet. Is that okay? Ultimately, late-game, the turtle helped me climb way back and delete a bunch of other monsters and such so it was fine, but it felt like I was building a wall that the enemy had to churn thru before I could really do anything. (combined w/ the above question of not being able to capture the flanks without enough bodies, it set me back a bit)

Turtle + Eidolon "Goon Squad"

No questions, just wanted to say WOW, I finally saw the goon squad in action last night as I deleted half a GUO and Bloab Rotspawned in a turn. My opponent was like "um, that turtle is quite good isn't it." 😂

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

29 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

I didn't see a second unit of sharks on your board but they should have absolutely gone all in on your turn one or two against either the boars or the mawkrusha. 

There was a unit of sharks alllll the way on the right side of the table. I was running them up the right to try to take the back right objective. Perhaps a poor decision? The left-hand side sharks were eaten immediately by the mawkrusha (orange).

29 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Countercharging the eidolon in is an automatic response because he kills the mawkrusha, gets countercharged by the mawkrusha and boars, pops cloud of midnight, and now it's your turn and he's completely wasted that combat phase

Ahhhhhhhh that's genius - yup, that was the play. OKAY. I am ready for another attempt, I'll report back.

I hope others are getting value from this discourse as well!

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

What scenario were you playing? You seem to be deployed super far up and boats have to be wholly within your territory.

Feral Foray. I believe it's WW my territory since that ends on the mid line. I think maybe it's not outside of 3" from other terrain though. I need to remember that.

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

Against an Orruk deployment like that ( I don't know how many drops he or you had), I would recommend a refused flank deployment if you know he is going first. Make it difficult for him to get both the Grunta units into combat on turn one. 

I was a 3 drop (hunter of the heartlands for my 2x2 sharks, battle regiment for the rest). He was a 1 drop. I had to do some googling, but this seems like a refused flank or declined flank and makes a lot of sense to me :). All of the other notes about moving back makes sense. I always am surprised how far stuff can move.

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

I'm very surprised to hear that you lost all the eels in one round of combat since they're on a 3+ unrendable save.

I could be wrong, but I think the darn eels were outside of the tortle, so they were on a 4+ unrendable. I may have dorked up the rules when I was saving, it's possible I was in shock when the maw krusha arrived 😂.

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

you should have been able to pile in with the eidolon and smack him a little on his first turn.

SIGH. Yea that's a great point. I totally didn't pile in and attack w/ the Eidolon.

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

The turtle should also have charged in to the mawkrusha on your turn one and tried to destroy it. Between the free chip damage on your turn from the eidolon and the turtle + eidolon charge on your turn 1, I'm confident the mawkrusha would have died.

My fear with committing with the turtle was even if I killed the megaboss on mawkrusha (red) which had an amulet of destiny on it as well, the mawkrusha next door would have slammed into me with all those gruntas. Is the turtle going to survive that kind of damage? I suppose the eidolon could have retreated and charged which would have helped. Running away with the turtle might be a bad idea, as I lost out on a lot of combat in the first two turns because of that mentality.

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

You just have to be extremely aggressive with deepkin, even if you've taken a ton of damage. Isolate one big thing at a time and kill it. Don't engage his whole army at once. 

The turtle needs to cleanly engage in combat every phase it seems like, not using it for a whole combat phase seemed like a mistake.

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

 Then your turn one the soulscryer comes in with leviadon and sharks

Is it of no concern to lose the +1 to save on the screens while the turtle is in reserve? I suppose the flexibility makes it worth it. Those thralls are probably dead anyways. The eels are then a 4+ (unless I use all out defense). Probably fine if the plan is a hard counter punch?

Thanks a ton @vinnyt I feel more and more confident every time I touch the army or list. Hoping to get a few more games in before tourney day :).

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

Alright @vinnyt I have much learning to do... this was still a mostly rules learning game on both side - we got through 1 round, but I think I blew the game in deployment. I played Iron Jawz.

Deployment I tried to mostly adhere to your tips, but I may have poorly setup my screens. I also didn't protect my corners. I had no idea where to put the darn ships. My Thralls were outside of 12" for my turtle buff, and the Sharks also were out of range of it. I had a tidecaster way on the back right corner to flip the tides and give off chip damage.

He used Mighty Destroyers to move 12" with his mawkrusha (orange) in his hero phase
He used Fast ’Un to move his Megaboss (red) on mawkrusha in his hero phase
He then made a move + charge to get into my Thralls with the megaboss
Then he used Get ’Em Beat (3+ from a warchanter went off) on his Mawkrusha and was able to easily get into my sharks, he rolled a 15 on 3D6...
Because of Smashing and Bashing he was able to use the Gore-gruntas which followed the mawkrushas, and then lastly his other MawKrusha attacked the reavers/thralls.

I responded with what I could using Unleash hell with the reavers and did some chip damage. My eels and thralls got wiped before I could attack.
My Eidolon got sucked within 3" from the Megaboss, and it was stuck in combat.

At this point I was pretty hosed. My deployment failed me I think. I moved my sharks up, the eidolon retreated, I tried to anchor his Gruntas in the middle since I knew I wanted to at least move off to the right towards his territory. I positioned my Reavers within 9" to get off more shots. I moved the turtle up thinking I would try to run away from the Megaboss, not sure if that was smart. I essentially wanted to flip the table. There's not much I could see doing at that point really.

I did some damage with shooting on the Mawkrusha, took out 1 gore-grunta in the middle, and did some chip damage to the Gruntas on the top right objective, thinking I would charge them with sharks next turn.

This is end of turn 1:

I did win the double, and since we were out of time, I just rammed the turtle and eidolon into the megaboss, as well as the reavers shooting - I actually was able to kill it despite a 5+ ward from the amulet on the darn thing. It took a lot to take it out.

The sharks made their move + charge and were about to attack when we had to call it because of time. I would have been tabled next turn maybe from the mawkrusha + gruntas, it would have been interesting.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

12 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Soulscryer reliability is because of the +3" to charge

 

Turtle's favorite snack is -1 rend infantry because he ignores -1 rend with the ancient trait which makes him super duper survivable. Infantry also tends to have worse armor saves so my -1 rend fins that do a ton of damage can put in more work. 

 

It's pretty opponent dependent but I only play take all comers lists so I prefer the soulscryer. Could go either way.

 

Eidolon and Cloud lets you take risks and not be punished for mistakes. Annihilators deepstrike and charge him? Pop cloud so he takes no damage, retreat out of combat, and then charge them. Immediate 570 point swing in my favor (I keep 330 points of Eidolon and kill 240 points of annihilators). If my opponent bunches up I can charge him into a soft target, kill a bunch of infantry, and now my opponent has to decide if he wants to countercharge me and risk wasting that combat phase with a hammer, only for me to retreat out and pick a new target, or leave me alone, in which case I keep the cloud and can still retreat out of combat and then pick a new combat. Unleash hell from raptors? Pop cloud in charge phase and charge right in. That also shuts down unleash hell from that unit for anything else in my army. The list goes on and on. It's extremely useful. I never charge the eidolon into a combat where I then pop the cloud. I make my opponent have to play around it. 

 

And yes, I used to take +2 wounds, but found that master of magic was better so now only take that. 

Tournament dec 4… practicing as much as I can beforehand! Your advice has been invaluable in rocketing my prep :).

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:23 AM, vinnyt said:

The Soulscryer adds even more reliability to the army

Is the Soulscryers reliability a result of its +3 to charge?

On 11/22/2021 at 5:23 AM, vinnyt said:

especially since most people loooove to have a big blocking unit of -1 rend infantry which is the tortle's favorite snack

Is the turtles favorite snack -1 rend because 12 of its attacks are -1 rend?

On 11/22/2021 at 5:23 AM, vinnyt said:

And sure enough, I was able to stop the phoenix guard piling in and then hit his entire army with the turtle and eidolon. +3" to charge is absolutely insane value. 

It seems like with the list, you can either grab an extra unit of Ishlaen or the Soulscryer. I see you have experimented with both. I can see the value of Ishlaen allowing more blocking/tanking of damage. The Soulscryer gives you deep strikes and the charge buff. Any thoughts on which is a better choice? Or is it opponent dependent? I like the idea of having deep strike to mess with armies that charge straight at you, or scenarios where you can flank / get objectives in their territory. Also expands options for battle tactics relying on being in the opponents territory.

On 11/22/2021 at 5:23 AM, vinnyt said:

My opponent was too bunched up and ended up getting trapped by the eidolon for a turn while the turtle munched through basically everything. The Eidolon also then retreated and charged and murdered a ton of stuff.

Do you generally slam the Eidolon into something very threatening, for example a Maw Krusha? I can see throwing it at something big and popping cloud of midnight. In that case, the Eidolon wouldn't be able to attack though, so how do you benefit both from its ability to waste a turn while still outputting damage? Do you just wait until the next turn to retreat and charge? I can see sending in some eels with it to really hold down an opponent. Some thoughts about how to use the Eidolon and Cloud of Midnight would be awesome.

You mention earlier in a post that you bring Born From Agony (+2 Wounds) on the Tidecaster, and Master of Magic (re-roll dispell, amongst other things). That's 2 command traits - did I miss how you were making that happen?

@vinnyt This post is fantastic, thanks a ton! 

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

23 hours ago, vinnyt said:

if you pay attention to how you set the army up and plan your movement.

It seems like you’d want all your sharks (2x2, 2x2, and the mathlaan) death starring, ya? Turtle can go do it’s own thing, defensive eels, reavers, and thralls screening and hammering if given the chance?

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

4 hours ago, vinnyt said:

8 attacks at 2srr1/2srr1/-2/2

12 attacks at 2srr1s/2s/-/1

5 attacks at 3srr1s/2s/-2/3 

4 attacks at 3srr1s/2s/-1/1

2d6 attacks at 4srr1s/3srr1s/-/1

Can you be specific where all these buffs are coming from? I’m still learning the army and reverse engineering it is proving hard than I realized haha.

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

1 minute ago, vinnyt said:

1k is a totally different game than 2k but yeah, that list will slap people no doubt about it. Only change I would make would be to give the leviadon ancient since it's gonna be doing most of the heavy lifting in combat and you want to preserve that 2+ save at all costs. The rest doesn't really matter all that much. The tidecaster's warscroll spell is amazing and should probably be the priority to cast (along with mystic shield). It's 1000 points though so I have no idea what the meta is or how the game really shifts at that level. 

I played last night and got stomped by  Mega boss on MawKrusha, 1x3 of gore gruntas, and 1x6 of gore gruntas.

I couldn’t get anything through in the maw krusha with a 5+ ward it had.

I need to keep working on the buffs and probably should have stayed away from the thing. 

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

Any feedback on this list? I'm shooting for a 1k list that has the building blocks of @vinnyt's style of 2k list he's been sharing. Namely, relying on the turtle, sharks, tidecaster, and eidolon, and less on eels.

Here's what I've got so far:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Isharann Tidecaster (105)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
10 x Namarti Reavers (115)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (115)*
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (250)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
Akhelian Leviadon (380)*
- Mount Trait: Reverberating Carapace
*Battle Regiment

Total: 965 / 1000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 2
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 57
Drops: 1

My thinking is the Tidecaster can flip the tides, and then take Lliandra's Last Lament to protect the double block of Reavers from battleshock. It can use Steed of Tides to help push off units while this smaller unit tries to take a side objective. Lastly, It could use master of magic to increase the odds of a disspell, if needed.

Since the list is lower in points, it could use the triumph Inspired to fire off +1 for the Reavers if they are blasting a ton of shots on the side of the board the hammers are not.

The Allopexes & Leviadon do their thing and hammer away.

The one-drop helps ensure I can go second and hope for the double turn / the opponent to move up aggressively before I strike hard on Turn 1, or if they hang back, I can also hang back a little.

Thoughts?

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

3 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I run mine as both with the casters weapons.  The models are so similar I cant imagine anyone actually complaining about it not being the right now, its literally just weapon swaps.

My thought was to just build the storm, and in a worst case, i have to build a sea later and run 2 (assuming rules changes, etc makes that make sense). swapping the in or out would be as easy as saying "this is a wizard" haha. just wanted some confirmation. It also seems like shipping off a weapon and magnetizing later wouldn't be the end of the world.

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

would you bother magnetizing the eidolon so i can use it as either the wizard or non-wizard variants?

[AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion]

@vinnyt I made an account on this board just to say thanks for the awesome write ups, I learned a ton :).