macrake

Couple of things, but mainly that part, yes. So here's the recap. Hero phase teleport. Lord-relictor casts it on 2+. Can take a command trait to make that 2+ rerollable for a 1/36 chance of failure. Which you'll probably take unless going with monsters, because our only good command trait is menagerie. It would still be really worthwhile without the bonus of being able to move after, because you can teleport for example 6x raptors and then guarantee their hero phase shoot, at any target you wish. With the move, you can reliably charge a unit that normally wouldn't be able to on the turn you wish. Or you can make sure a fat unit of SDG get to charge in the hero phase, avoiding unleash hell and redeploy.

If you want to seriously discuss lists, just drop the dumb strawmans and assume other people aren't morons. The 4x sdg fight first. The other drakes don't charge anything risky. Just wrong math. 4 fulminators do 21 melee to a 3+ with 4 mw shooting. 4x drakes do 17 melee to a 3+ with 8 mw shooting. So yeah, 25 from fulmis. Not bad. Drakes also do 25, monstrous stomp and eat a model. So yeah. And again, drakes don't drop to half dmg next turn, much more tanky, better at holding objectives. You can say that fulminators are cheaper, but they require the relictors translocation, so are they really cheaper? So your 6 grandhammers will do about 21 to a 3+, with about 6 more mw. Sooo.. 1 more dmg than 4 sdg. And again, Grandhammers are less than half as tanky as SDG. zero mobilty, require a lord imperatant. fails their charge 1/4 times. Dont count as 5 models. Uhm, so Alpha striking doesn't win games. But eliminating key targets do. Can you decide what you want to argue? Funnily, SDG are far better at getting objectives and battle tactics done than Grandhammers/fulminators. That Grandhammers or fulminators are more reliable is just wrong in so many ways. That last bit about throwing half my into... what are you even talking about.

Close to one of the first lists I'll be trying. I think a lord-relictor is auto include. 2+ hero phase teleport is so good. Insures your raptors hit what you want them to, or pull off some crazy moves with SDG. I basically swap the incantor and 2x sdg for 1x sdg, lord relictor and 5 libs. I like the flexibility of a cheap 145 drake. 5 libs to screen and/or hold a home objective is also nice.

Oh, so you actually went with my example and take fulminators and grandhammers. I wont bother with your "opponent will just screen you out" argument. Just isn't happening with that much shooting. Maybe castling with pinks, but then you just shoot their heroes and block them in. So you think 75+ MAYBE alpha is better than 68+ for sure alpha? Yes, your list is very much a maybe. If you're using translocate for fulminators, you're not using it for raptors, which means you probably wont get to double tap them. Also, grandhammers will fail 1 in 4 games. Even if it all happens. You get 7 more on your alpha. And then way less damage next turn, if somehow your glass cannon annihilators even survive. Yes, we have units that in theory can outdamage SDG, but in practice, they're not even close to worth what you lose.

Knight Draconis 4x SDG, 2x SDG, 1x SDG Lord relictor 6x Longstrikes 5x liberators. Lets go through this lists potential turn 1 alpha. No draconis double shoot. against a 3+ save. No buffs. For shooting we get: 21 from the longstrikes, 13 from the SDG. 34 wounds shooting. No buffs. Against a 3+. Melee: 7 SDG about 34 to a 3+. 68 wounds alpha to a 3+ before any potential buffs. If the opponent doesn't deploy over 24" away, go ahead and add 10 MW from draconis ability and his own shooting, and another 7 from his melee. You don't think this is impressive turn one alpha? That's a dead gargant for sure, maybe another with some all out attack.

Could you point me to these other mysterious units that you think do impressive damage? Grandhammers with an imperatant required for 15% more dmg for one turn, with a 25% fail chance? Fulminators that do the same dmg as SDG if you include shooting, but require a translocation and then drop to half dmg when not charged? (Lets also pretend that SDG dont do the million other things they do) Outside of one or two support heroes and maybe 6 raptors for the doubletap, please tell me what you think is worth more than 2x or 4x SDG. I'm genuinely curious.

No, only Krondys and Karazai do 1 dmg on a 1-2. Draconis and SDG do no dmg on 1-2.

Because you have the stardrake as an anvil, I would take out the protectors and a unit of vindictors and replace them with 6x longstrikes and some aetherwings.

I like the list. I'll just point out what weaknesses I see. Most obvious weakness is the reliance on the unit of 6x grandhammers. They will fail their charge 1 in 4 times. Thats basically game over right there. The list relies completely on your longstrikes and grandhammers alpha strike. I would go for the one drop. To do that, you'd have to drop the aetherwings. Could upgrade the libs to Vindictors.

The difference in damage for a charging unit (all attacks included) is about 15-20% more than blades. When not charged, it's 15-20% less than blades. I personally favor the lances, because Drakes are one of (the?) easiest units in the game to charge. A drake list will also have insane alpha, because the entire list will smash on first turn. Maximizing that alpha is important.

If you want to have fun at the bottom tables with that one Gloomspite player or BoC guy, go ahead and spend 700 points on 4 ballista and an ordinator to do 10 dmg against a 4+.

Haha, I'm in much the same boat. At least I have longstrikes though, that should carry me a long way. You could hope that I'm wrong and Pj/jham are right.

Right, lets see how many 3+ win SC lists bring castigators, ballistas or evocators. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yeah good luck with that in a competitive setting. Spending 230 points on evos to empower 6 castigators or a single ballista? At current points, they are worthless if you actually want to compete in a tourney.

You'd have a point if castigators and ballistas weren't trash tier.

Big sigh. Was hoping I'd have them for a tourney 23-24th october.

Evocators worked in two scenarios: Gavcharging 10 of them or translocating 10 of them. They no longer function in a unit of 10 due to loss of reach. They also lost reroll 1's vs missiles. +1 to wound spell is bad when we can already get that from Celestial Blades. So they can no longer do the thing they were used for before. Also, even if they could, we have better units for the role now. Other paladins. Dracoth. Dragons.

The threat range on their hero phase shoot is 24". If they can shoot at later point in the hero phase, after recieving the ability, then that hero phase shoot threat range is basically boardwide.

wrong math

Because SDG can then potientially recieve the ability, then get teleport somewhere by translocation, and then shoot. Would make it impossible for opponent to avoid the hero phase shooting.

"Once per battle, in your hero phase, you can pick one friendly Stormdrake Guard unit wholy within 12" of this unit. That unit can shoot." Saw someone on facebook say that this means the SDG unit can shoot later in the hero phase and doesn't have to shoot instantly. I'm not sure personally. Seems absurdly strong. Opinions? Thunderbolt Volley, for a similar example, has the wording ".. can shoot in the hero phase." So for that ability, it seems more reasonable that the unit can wait untill later in the hero phase.

In that case the mode is healed 1 wound instead of being removed. So yes, cycle counters instant slay abilities like Archaons sword, Nagash hand of dust etc.

I like it. I'm thinking KD, 4xSDG, 4xSDG, 2xSDG, incantor, LAoGC. Relictor is great, but not sure it'll do much for drakes considering how mobile they already are. Although relictor+5 vindictors could be nice for stealing an objective. Incantor is a steal at 125 and can give out mystic shield or pull off something tricky with starfall. LAoGC is down to 195. Super mobile wizard to keep up with drakes, always threatens empty objective, cycle of the storm is fantastic and his healing spell is great with drakes. Celestial blades on 4x drakes. KD, 2x4 drakes is the must have base imo. Leaves 605 points to play with.

Nah, the alpha will straight up kill one or two big threats first turn. You will give up a few VP sure, but you'll easily get those back by extra VP from battle tactics.

Although I'm not sure if those of you talking down drakes secretly just want them to yourselves. It's a smart tactic. Dont buy drakes.. they're not that good.