Dolomedes
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Posts posted by Dolomedes
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So, if you didn't hear, the new GHB season has been announced:
General’s Handbook 2023–24: Warhammer Age of Sigmar Prepares For a New Season in Frozen Andtor - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)
I love me some wild speculation about the BoC meta, so I'm going to indulge myself.The thing that's got everyone talking about the new season is this spell:
It doesn't take a genius to work out how insanely powerful this spell is. It can turn volume of attack chaff units into blenders.
Gors with 3 attacks each will love it. If command abilities remain the same, we can stack AoA on top of this spell too. Tzaangor Shamans will be able to cast it fairly reliably.What's really mental about this spell though, is the interaction with the herdstone:
'Improving' the rend characteristic happens after the characteristic is set. That means, the herdstone will stack with this spell, giving us access to rend -4 on our basic chaff units. Add a giant, or wait til turn 4, and we're at rend -5. Dogs, Gors, Ungors - all can now basically ignore armour.
I think this is probably going to get clarified, and some follow up wording like 'Once a characteristic has been modified, it cannot be improved' will follow, but for now I'm going to remain giddy at the potential of waves rend -4 Alpha Striking dogs tearing the enemy to bits.
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8 hours ago, Pyrk said:
Sorry if I'm dense here, but why can't Skyfires get the benefit of AoA? The wording on the ability implies they ignore penalties to their hit/wound rolls, and their targets ignore any bonuses to save rolls?
Since AoA is a bonus to their hit rolls, it wouldn't interact with said ability, no?
You are correct! Even so, the low number of attacks still means I wouldn't take them. 20 Ungor Raiders at a similar price point just do so much better. If you check out the AoS worlds lists, you'll find many BoC players are spamming Ungor Raiders (70+) for their round 1 threat potential. Team Spain has a list with 80 raiders, Belakor and Bulls. 80 Raiders fire 160 shots a turn (excluding champions, so the real number is higher), which will be 320 shots turn 1. That's more than enough to delete a serious chunk of an army.
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12 hours ago, Turbocow said:
@Magnus The Blue @Dolomedes Whoa guys, stellar replies, thank you two so very much! I will give up on the Skyfire inclusion in this case (especially as I did not realize so many restrictions apply to them!), and consider the Enlightened. I realize that the foot version is the most cost efficient one, but just out of curiosity - is there no place for the disk version of these fellas? While quite pricey, a unit of 6 looks to be an absolute blender.
The idea for Gors was to glue them to an objective, supported by their 4+ save with the shield, the endless spell and heals from Cygors. I am not quite sure what to replace them with, but maybe the Gargant will work. I'll just need to look for something to kitbash it with, as the model is not very appealing to me. I'll also split the Tzaangors in two, the thought of using them to pew-pew with the icons completely slipped my mind. The unit has so much going on, and I read so many different opinions on how to best build the Tzaangors, from purely dual blades to 6 shields and 4 greatblades (iirc). Whew.
My thought behind the dirgehorn was to use it as a sacrificial piece for the Cygors to snack on if they get in danger of dying. But I suppose the mortal wounds and the strike last effect from the Wildfire Taurus cannot hurt either!
As far as the general's command trait goes, do you think bestial cunning is our best option? I can see a case also being made for slakefray reveller and skullfray gorehorn.
Once again, thank you all for the input, and for bearing with my ramblings!
P.S. I also have a very memey list of basically 9 Morghurite Chaos Spawn and 18 Slaangors. Seeing how MCS worked well based on the battle reports, maybe it won't be such a meme after all!
No problem - writing all this stuff out helps me out too. I talk to other competitive BoC players about this stuff all the time, but writing it all out in long format helps to concretise the thousand things whirling around in my mind.
Enlightened on disk are great, but they're just expensive. You can have 12 on foot for less than 6 on disk. The ability to ambush the foot Enlightened and give them +3 movement from Slakefray is what makes them so good. Their points cost is low because they were pointed for the Tzeentch book which doesn't have the movement buffs and rend buff that BoC has. Enlightened on Disk pair well with a Tzaangor Shaman with Skullfray command trait to give out the +1 attack. It's a very serious threat package. Tzaangor Enlightened on Disk are good, but for the price point, you can take Bulls, which hit much harder, or you can take 2 units of 6 on foot.
If you're taking 2 units of 10 Tzaangors and using them to shoot things, then your Gors aren't really bringing much as objective sitters. Tzaangors screened by a Cygor do it better. However, I think 20 Gors is still a great pick in any list because of their +2 to charge from ambush. 20 Gors with Dual Weapons and AoA is a fairly potent hammer. I've had many games where I've needed that unit to show up and charge onto an objective. 61 attacks, 3s and 3s, rend -1 will do work. Also, they're good for completing the rampaging beastherd battle tactic. The strike last is obviously very strong too. Gors are a good threat piece that'll make your opponent think twice about their movement and deployment.
It's Paired Savage blades all day on Tzaangors. The reason why is the herdstone. The -1 rend buff from the herdstone with the paired blades native 3+ to hit and additional attacks does way more consistent high damage. The greater weight of attacks from paired savage blades interact much better with the spell lore buffing we have too - Wild Rampage for exploding 6s, and Tendrils for +1 damage. If you hang the Tzaangors back, it's quite feasible that they stick around til turn 4 and get rend -2, and on that weight of attacks, you'll be cleaning out most threats.
I agree about the dirgehorn - having used it myself as a Cygor snack, I can assure you it works. However, generally you'll be moving your Cygors away from it as the battle progresses, or the range on it will be so big that you wouldn't want to get rid of it. It's still an excellent spell though, and I highly recommend using it. If you're using dirgehorn, the play is to cast it as early as possible into/on a piece of terrain so your opponent doesn't have visibility, and can't dispel it without moving right up to it. It's worth taking, but if you want the most out of the +3 to cast from Tzaangor Shaman, the Taurus is S tier. Seriously, that spell wins games. If you wait for the perfect timing, and land it on 3 or 4 units at once, you can clean out an opponent. If your opponent can't get rid of it they're in big trouble. There's a reason why many consider it one of if not the best endless spell in AoS.
To command traits - I swear by Slakefray because I've played with that +3 movement ever since day 1 of AoS. My rule is minimum movement is 7" or it's not worth taking, and at 7" you'd better be making up for it. 9" move is my baseline. Slakefray with Morghur Spawn is the pick because it gives them an effective threat range of 21" turn 1 for their range attack. Most battle plans deploy 18" apart, so having something that can go past 18" is very strong. It's also very good on monsters. I've not played with the Gorehorn, but I might try it out some time on a Tzaangor Shaman with Centigors. I like having massive movement. You're right - the picks are usually Slakefray, Bestial Cunning, or Gorehorn, but they're very list dependant.
If you've got 9 Morgspawn and 18 Slaangors I think you should give it a try. Morgspawn and Slaangors pair up very nicely. I don't own any Slaangors because I think the models look silly, but if I find some nice proxies I'll be trying it out for sure.
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16 hours ago, Turbocow said:
Moo everyone! I am finally getting into AoS and Beastmen in particular!
I'm trying to create a more ranged-looking list, with some staying power through heals from Cygors and TzShaman, as well as objective denial with Quakefray Cygor's abilities (and Bleating Gnarlstaff). It is all still preliminary, so I do not bother with putting in batallions and etc right now, and the list still has 135 points that I can spend, with potential candidates being a unit of Ungor Raiders, a Cockatrice, or Chaos Warounds.Beasts of ChaosSubfaction: Quakefray
LEADERSBeastlord (145)Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)Great Bray-Shaman (95)
BATTLELINECygor (210)Cygor (210)Gors (220)- Hacking blade and beastshieldUngors (80)- Gnarled Shortspear
OTHERBeasts of Chaos Tzaangors (340)Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Skyfires (210)Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Skyfires (210)
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONSDoomblast Dirgehorn (30)
1865/2000
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Apart from my list, I am also glad to see that Gavespawn lists are doing well, I love the Gibbering Congregation! But overall, from what I can see from battle reports and tournament results, our new book is probably not performing the best right now?Smart list idea, and kudos for giving Skyfires a look in. I agree with @Magnus The Blue though - Skyfires are way overcosted. If you want to shoot stuff, Ungor Raiders are your boys. The problem with Skyfires is there's only 3 shots, that hit on 4+s, which can't be modified with AoA. Skyfires don't really do anything in combat, and the most you could expect from them is to clear screens. They can't be taken in Galletian Sharpshooters either so they aren't very good at hero sniping. If you've still got the bits and haven't done an exquisite paint job, I'd highly recommend switching them over to Tzaangor Enlightened on foot (Teof). A unit of 6 enlightened on foot is by far the most cost effective hammer we have access to - they're 90 points for 3, or 180 for 6. Their ability to shut down AoD and gain +1 to wound if you're going second is massive. Here's some comparison between similarly pointed units:
AoS Statshammer (aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com)You can see from my numbers though that the average damage output of Teof into high saves is no joke for 180 points. Teof are great ambushers due to their small footprint and low movement, provided you screen them.
If you want ranged damage output, your Tzaangors are a great pick. Their totems ability shoots out MWs on a 4+ at 18". Personally, I'd split the 20 into 2 10s so you can do it more. Having 2 10s also means you've got more chances of adding models/healing with the Tzaangor shaman. Tzaangors are in second place behind Teof for being our most cost effective hammer. Tzaangors can hang out with the Beastlord behind your Cygors firing out MWs whilst being screened out. It's worth considering an extra wizard to get more out of this ability.
The Beastlord is tricky to play, but if you get the positioning right he's great. The 12" +1 hit & wound is a hideously powerful buff. He's more of a counter punch piece that hangs out at the back til he can go in and activate his aura. Beastlord is great in the Galletian Bodyguard Battalion with Teof. The 6" range on that battalion is a snug fit for 6 Teof, and if you have another unit with him (10 Tzaangors), you can activate 3 units at the same time using his 12" brayherd activation ability too. It's a tricky setup, but it'll smash alot of stuff.
I think your Gors aren't bringing much to your list. My guess is you took them to cap objectives as ambushers, or screen out your Cygors & Skyfires whilst they shoot stuff next to the horn. Maybe just take 10 and switch out the others for Ungor Raiders. Better yet, drop all of them and take 3 units of 10 ungor raiders in the sharp shooters battalion.
I'll echo @Magnus The Blue's comments about the gargant. He's really good for his price point. If you're running heal on your Cygors, he's a great candidate. He's a great screen too, as opponents will generally avoid charging anything that reduces their save.
If you're taking a Tzaangor Shaman, it's worth considering the wildfire Taurus. It's a game winning spell, and the Tzaangor shaman loves to cast it with his once per game +3 cast. It's more MWs in a list that's already got alot.
Unfortunately our book isn't performing brilliantly at the moment. This is partly down to the high skill ceiling. This army has a lot of moving parts, and if you make mistakes you get punished heavily for it. BoC are one of the most popular army choices for the AoS worlds event though, which is surprising considering how powerful some of the new books have been lately.
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2 hours ago, The Red King said:
Thanks for the write up and congratulations on what sounds like some good games. Happy to hear enlightened + beastlord worked for you as I'm very eager to try mine. Sad to hear that about the bulls though.
Have you considered dropping one group of spawn for something else? Tuskgor chariots are a nice 7 wound 4+ save screen (with their big bases) that also does suprising damage on the charge against 1-2 wound models. Can help with screens themselves.
If anything I'm considering taking more - the spawn are incredible. I ran a list with 3 chariots and 6 spawn in for a bit, but the spawn are just better. In packs of 4 or 5 the massed shooting of spawn will punch well above it's weight, then charge and give out -4 attacks, effectively neutering anything they go in to and pinning it. Massing up the -1 attack on the spawn makes them more resilient than chariots. I think chariots are good, and there's definitely a chariot spam build out there, but spawn just do it better. Once chariots have charged they don't really do anything, but spawn usually end up winning out combats through attrition and forcing your opponent to split attacks.
I've got another list nearly ready with spawn and Tzaangors that I'm trying out this weekend - just needs the finishing touches. It's mostly built around just stalling out the opponent and hitting hard with Tzaangor or Enlightened when the opportunity comes.
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On 4/24/2023 at 4:11 PM, Dolomedes said:
Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
LEADER
1 x Doombull (180)*
- General
- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet
- Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
1 x Beastlord (145)*
- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff
1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)*
- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
BATTLELINE
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
10 x Ungors (80)*
- Brayhorn Blower
- Banner Bearer
- Halfhorn
- Gnarled Shortspear
9 x Bullgors (630)**
- 2 x Warheard Drummer
- 2 x Warheard Banner Bearer
- Cleaving Axe and Bullshield
OTHER
6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)**
- Aviarch
CORE BATTALIONS:
*Warlord
**Galletian Veterans
TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)
Taking this lot out next weekend to a 1 day tournament. Hopefully it gets the job done. I'm slightly apprehensive about the 9 Bulls, but it's a dam solid hammer that can kill multiple units a turn. Hopefully spawn can protect them on the clap back.This list went 1-2. Round one vs new SBGL was a loss 23-24 vs a very good player local tournament player (he came 3rd overall). Round two vs NH was a big win. Round 3 vs Maggotkin was a heavy loss because I was tired by this point and played like a chump. My opponent was also a seasoned tournament player (he came 2nd at a local 2 tournament the week before).
Round 1 vs SBGL, and the battleplan was Path of a Champion. It was one of, if not the, best games I've ever played. It was incredibly cagey, with both of us giving away priority if we won it. He positioned grave sites very well, and the battle was mostly fought out between his dire wolves and skeletons and my hordes of spawn. His hammers were 10 Blood knights, Vengorian lord, and Vamp Lord on Zombie Dragon. I was scoring double battle tactics and denying his, but he was scoring more objectives. Neither of us committed our hammers til round 4. He had a spell that did 1 MW to every unit on the board which was brutal against my spawn. I kept my bulls way back and ambushed them into my own back line, til they were needed. He had that much board control that I couldn't get them in to do early damage. This worked out in my favour, as it prevented him committing his hammers into my spawn, as they'd get lifted on the counter punch by bulls or enlightened. The spawn were fighting 2 units of dire wolves and a unit of 20 Skeletons, which were coming back after I'd lifted them. I messed up by moving spawn off my home objective once they'd cleaned up. I killed a unit of dire wolves the previous turn, which he summoned onto my abandoned home objective in the movement phase, costing me 2 points. Once the spawn were dead or nearly dead I sent in the enlightened to fight the Blood knights. The enlightened and the Beastlord together killed almost all of them, which was a brilliant result. Enlightened and Beastlord died on the next round, but it set up a perfect charge for the bulls. They charged, killed the 1 remaining blood knight with MWs, then charged again, and killed the Zombie Dragon and left the Vengorian Lord on 1 wound. The Vengorian lord healed back to full, which killed all my Bulls in the next turn with support. I rolled badly on the attacks into the Lord, and he rolled some massive saves, which was unfortunate. The AoE spell that hit all my spawn, and my daft move off my home objective, are what cost me the game. Had I known the faction's tricks better, I'd probably have won it, but I'll know now for future games.
Round 2 was against Nighthaunt. The battleplan was twists and turns. 3 spawn were cursed at the start of the game which was a stinger. I didn't know NH do this, but now I do! My opponent hadn't played against BoC before, so it was a rough match up for him. I explained everything, but he just had no idea how to play his army against it. I ambushed his black coach and killed it round 1 as he'd left it unprotected on a flank. My opponent castled up once he saw what the Bulls can do, and sent everything at them. He managed to kill 7 of them. By removing the front models first, the Bulls came out of combat, which left me able to rally 2 back next turn. The bulls were then safe behind a big wall of spawn, with my Enlightened next to them. As my opponent had castled up, it left him with very little board presence, so I could use the Spawn's movement and decent output to get the upper hand in the field on objectives and pull ahead on points. I rallied the Bulls back til I had 7, then went in for the kill on turn 4. I had some rough rolls on the objectives activating, so I really had to push my battle tactics to win it, but it wasn't a hard match up.Round 3 was my hardest match up, against MoN. The battleplan was ours for the taking. My opponent was a seasoned local tournament player. He was running Belakor, Bloab, Orghotts, Blightkings and Rotmire creed. I was pretty exhausted by this point as my last 2 games had ran right up to the time limit. I opened by ambushing my Bulls and killing Belakor. I placed my spawn fairly aggressively up the table, which was a mistake. I underestimated how much damage Nurgle can do with their magic and disease. Bloab debuffed my Bulls, and between him and Orghotts they managed to kill all 9. The Rotmire creed got disease on a big pack of 5 spawn early game, which meant they weren't going to be able to play the table. The Enlightened and my other spawn pack managed to take a flank and his home objective, but they were all diseased too early. By turn 3 my spawn were mostly dead to disease, and my Bulls were dead too. I didn't have much left to play with at this point and I was knackered, so I just started doing RoRs on my remaining heroes so they'd die quickly and I could concede. I was far too aggressive early on in this match up. The Bulls needed more support so they could get into the Maggoth Lords, but I over committed into Belakor. I didn't know much about Nurgle and how the disease mechanic works. Now I know I'll be much more careful about my engagements if I'm using spawn.
I love using the spawn and the Enlightened. The Enlightened traded up in every game, and the spawn were excellent at being objective grabbers and chaffing up the enemy. The spawn's damage output was always a massive threat to anything that didn't have a big armour save. I'm definitely sticking with Spawn and Enlightened, but I'm dropping the Bulls and Doombull because it's just too much of a points investment. I generally play better when I'm being cagey and defensive, and having a big hammer that comes on from the side is too much of a temptation for me to do something stupid and throw them away. I'm taking more Enlightened and Tzaangors in future and trying to increase board presence.
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17 hours ago, The Red King said:
@Dolomedes I do get what you're saying and I certainly do want to try them but I wonder what I'm entering wrong because when I look at thekr averages in statshammer I am not getting the same averages. I can test out a few real world roll scenarios but that feels less scientific. If you're running them competitively then I have to trust they are working for you (I'm also on the 9 bulls train btw, I like the better potential for killing something on the charge combined with a doombull to charge again because they really need all the help they can get making their points back).
The stats hammer averages are a bit off because the majority of their reliable damage is done by the MW charge and the 6s to hit do 2 MWs. It's hard to get a feel for how much damage something is reliably doing when the majority of it is MWs. I math hammered the unit of 9 before running them competitively to get a feel for them, but it's really not that helpful. In practice, if you're running 9 Bulls, their target is going to be whatever the opponent's biggest threat is, and your opponent is going to do absolutely everything to stop it from happening. 9 Bulls with +1 to hit, on the charge, can do 34-49 damage on average to the spread of saves, but that's not really the full picture.
Targets are going to be God Monsters - like Kragnos, Archaon, Alarielle, Teclis, Mega Gargants etc. Usually they've got wards on too. It'll be one of them, or whatever the scariest hammer unit is - Fulminators, Stalkers, Stonehorns, Ironguts, Dragons, Varanguard etc. Most lists can only afford one of these units. Generally you're looking at 20 something wounds on a 2 or 3+ save, with a 5+ ward. For examples sake, lets say 25 wounds, on a 2+ save, with a 5+ ward. If you charge, which you almost certainly will do by ambushing or using Doombull, you get 9 MWs off the bat. If you're opponent is smart, they've probably tried to counter play to stop you piling in all 9 bulls, so lets say only 7 can swing.
First profile: 7*3+1=22, so that's 22 attacks, where 6s do 2 MWs. 22/6= 3.6, then *2 for the MWs and you're on 7.3 MWs average. Add that to the 9 from the charge, and you're on 16 MWs already. If there's no ward save, that'll reliably kill a good chunk of threats, especially monsters. Second profile: 7*2+1=13. 13/6*2= 4.3 MWs from the horns. So, on average, with 7 Bulls in combat, you're doing 20 MWs just on the 6s, where 9 are practically guaranteed. Even with a 5+ ward, you're still getting roughly 14 or 15 wounds through pretty reliably, before rolling out any of the wound and save rolls. With the wound and save rolls, at 2 damage each you'd have to be insanely unfortunate not to get a few more through. The only things that 9 Bulls can't kill reliably in one turn of combat are 25+ wound units with ward saves, and even then you've got to be incredibly unlucky. Even in those cases, you've probably done more than enough damage to neuter the threat.
Math hammer is useful but it's not the full picture - if you ask yourself 'What unit does this unit have to kill?' and then 'Can this unit kill it reliably?' you'll end up getting much more efficiency out of the unit. 9 Bulls with shields will reliably kill the vast majority of threats, but more importantly, they'll survive the clap back and get to do it again. If you're spending 630 points on a unit, you want all the value you can get, and there just isn't any value in overkilling something when the clap back could easily cost you the entire unit. They can't get their points back if they're dead, and odds are, without shields, in most match ups, they'll go kill a 400-500 point unit then get pasted. My Bulls have one shot Kragnos, Huskard on Stonehorn, an Ironclad, 15 Thunderers, Durthu and a Treelord together in one combat phase, Lady O and a bunch of ghosts, all with overkill, but most importantly, they survived and went off to kill something else after. I think the only thing they haven't deleted was a unit of 4 Stormdrake, and that's because I put the charge MW into something else which was a bad decision in hindsight.
I've got a 1 day tournament this weekend where we can read the lists before playing. I'll have a butchers today and see if there's anything at all that could realistically tank 9 Bulls with shields that isn't just an anvil/tarpit.
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16 hours ago, The Red King said:
I promise I don't just come here to poo poo on other peoples ideas like it seems lol
Idk, the damage difference between shields and great axes is 7-9 wounds depending on the enemy save and that's not a negligible number. I'm really tempted to try shields and probably will because I'd love to have a 3+ save. Ultimately I dont feel they're strong enough to give up any killing power because for their cost in both points and list building they NEED to remove what they hit when they hit it.
The real deciding factor for me is that my list already has enlightened who really need all out attack and Gor who really need all out attack (if you want to deal damage) so bullgor having the option to hit on 3's is worth more than just being +1 to hit imo.
More and more I want to try to fit Grashrak into my lists for his spell. I might have to test it and get back.
If you're running a unit of 9 Bulls with shields they will absolutely kill whatever they go into with overkill. Only the most obscene anvil units with 4 or 5+ wards can stand it. I just rolled it out on my desk and I'm on 31 MW (including 9 from charge) without rolling any wounds rolls yet. 9 with great/dual axes would do more damage, but you really don't need it. Just give it a try yourself - roll out the attacks on your desk and see how many MWs you get and ask yourself is anything honestly going to stand up to it. If it does, it's almost certainly dead next turn. The beauty of 9 Bulls is you don't really need to use AoA to get their damage off. It's 9 MW on the charge, then 47 attacks where 6s to hit do 2 MWs. I make that roughly 24 MW on average. The damage is in the MW output, not the wound & save rolls, so you can save the AoA for something else. I've ran 9 bulls competitively for a while now, and I can assure you that they get their work done.
I'm totally with you on them needing to kill their target. I learnt this the hard way. I had a competitive league game with my friend (LrL) where I ran 6 with great axe in Bestial Cunning as my hammer. Their job was to kill Teclis. I did 2 or 3 MW to him before sending in the Bulls so it was looking like an easy kill. Bulls got the charge, did 6 MW, then completely whiffed their attacks. I only got a single 6 to hit, and 2 wounds through. Teclis survived and killed a few back. I lost priority after that, then lost the unit, and the game, because they didn't kill Teclis. Statistically that was highly unlikely, but it happened. Ever since then I've ran 9 with shields because the MW output is so much more reliable.
Personally I don't like running units of 6 Bulls because of the above. However, I'm in a minority here, and most other competitive BoC players I've spoken to will go for 6 over a 9, especially since the price hike. Generally you're sending Bulls in to kill something, and you want that extra damage output from Dual/Great Weapons over shields to get the job done. In a unit of 6, the pick is generally dual weapons rather than great weapons. The damage output is comparable if you look at the averages, with great weapons pulling ahead against lower saves:
However, there's much more to it than the averages (I spent way too much time working this out). At first glance, great weapons look better because of the built in 3+ to hit, in a meta where more and more -1 to hit is showing up. Also, you'd think that having a built in 3+ to hit means you don't need AoA to get the damage off. Great axes also have the potential to do absolutely massive spike damage if you get lucky and roll hot. Dual axe remains the better competitive pick for a 6 though, due to the weight of dice:
6 DW bulls roll 25 dice, where 6s to hit are 2 MWs (max 50 MW).6 GW bulls roll 13 dice, where 6s to hit are 3 MWs (max 39 MW).
Because the Great Axe bulls are rolling fewer dice, you're more likely to get a duff roll with no 6s or a bunch of 1s and 2s, and your opponent has a better chance at saving whatever does go through. With dual weapons though, even at 4+ to hit, you've got a much better chance at rolling a truckload of MWs. More dice means more potential results, and more potential results means less chance of rolling the really ****** result you don't want. When you look at it this way, the bulls with shields might even be worth considering over the great weapons in a 6, as they've got a higher chance to roll MWs than the great weapons, and an even better chance to do it across multiple turns.
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18 hours ago, Hannibal said:
Pretty intresting list! I like Spawns, I lkie Enlightened, I like Bullgors.
Are the shields for additional protection? I built mine to bear double handweapons for more damage output, but I plan to run just 6 as a cruise missle. They will go in, hopefully kill something and eventually die in the counterattack.
Yeah the shields are for protection. When you're running 9, you don't need the extra damage - 9 with shields will still kill pretty much anything in the game. The play with them is to kill stuff on the charge, then charge again.
When they get clap back, you'll probably lose a few, but if you take shields and have 1 or 2 left, you get a shot at rallying them back. Generally 36 wounds on a 4+ (or 3+ if you AoD them, which you will) can take a punch. 9 Bulls will usually go ahead and kill whatever the biggest threat is. When they're getting punched back, be sure to remove models so that they are out of combat at the end of the turn, so you rally them in the next hero phase. The general consensus is shields for a 9 block and dual weapons for a 6 block.
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Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
LEADER
1 x Doombull (180)*
- General
- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet
- Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
1 x Beastlord (145)*
- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff
1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)*
- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
BATTLELINE
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
10 x Ungors (80)*
- Brayhorn Blower
- Banner Bearer
- Halfhorn
- Gnarled Shortspear
9 x Bullgors (630)**
- 2 x Warheard Drummer
- 2 x Warheard Banner Bearer
- Cleaving Axe and Bullshield
OTHER
6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)**
- Aviarch
CORE BATTALIONS:
*Warlord
**Galletian Veterans
TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)
Taking this lot out next weekend to a 1 day tournament. Hopefully it gets the job done. I'm slightly apprehensive about the 9 Bulls, but it's a dam solid hammer that can kill multiple units a turn. Hopefully spawn can protect them on the clap back. -
2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:
Interesting, I just worry that any sort of area of effect damage or consistent shoot will decimate them in no time. Definitely sounds fun though!
Yeah it probably would, but that decimates everything. Ranged MW output is a hard counter to any army. The play against it is to just close the gap as fast as possible, which should be doable with 13" move, or run and charge. Once the spawn are in combat, and the -1 attacks are working, shooting really isn't much of a threat. If it's looking really nasty, then turn 1 null deploy is your only real counter. That, or close the gap with bulls and charge in the combat phase to shut down UH.
On the point of ranged MW output - there was a KO player who quit the tournament after round 1 because he doubled the opponent and pretty much tabled him, with zero counter play. The player figured it isn't even a game if you can do that. His battle tactics were something like 'get out of the boat' or 'get in the boat'. He's got a point - if you can just show up with a gunline that deletes an army off the board with no counter play, it isn't really a game. -
4 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:
Can you share your list? curious what you could fit in after nearly 700 points of spawn!
Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn- Grand Strategy: Protect the Herdstone- Triumphs: BloodthirstyLEADER1 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)**- General- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet- Spells: Wild Rampage1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)**- Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns- Aspects of the Champion: Tunnel MasterBATTLELINE3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)20 x Gors (220)*- Foe-render- 2 x Banner Bearer- 2 x Brayhorn Blower- Paired Hacking Blades5 x Centigors (170)*- Brayhorn Blower- Banner Bearer- Gorehoof3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)**BEHEMOTH1 x Chaos Gargant (145)1 x Cygor (210)ENDLESS SPELL1 x Wildfire Taurus (70)TERRAIN1 x Herdstone (0)OTHER6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*- AviarchCORE BATTALIONS:*Galletian Veterans**Warlord
Similar to yours - plan was to swamp objectives with MSU ******, and use the Enlightened, Gors, Cygor and Giant to deal damage where I needed it. Anything super scary I'd try to chaff up with Spawn and make it useless for the game.I discovered in my first game that 9 Morghurite spawn do a frankly insane amount of damage when you group them up, so they became another hammer. My first match up was vs Nurgle flies - by turn 3 the spawn had killed 2 units of Blightlords and the Blightlord general. In my 2nd match up, the spawn killed a whole squig herd, even after it regenerated twice. Groups of 4 or 5 seem to be the sweet spot. Against elite units, you force them to split attacks, and they can only ever get 2 or 3 damage onto each spawn at most. They're not too shabby in melee either, if you run them as a pack. A pack of 4 will do 32 attacks at 3s and 3s, rend -1, which after shooting usually cleans something out. In Slakefray they move 13", which means turn 1 you have a 21" threat range for shooting. Spawn don't really have many weaknesses, other than a massive hero monster of some sort.I've got another tournament next weekend, where I'm running my 9 spawn, 6 bulls with shields and 6 Enlightened. Trying to decide between going 9 Bulls for super killing power or another 3 spawn. -
On 4/21/2023 at 12:40 PM, Magnus The Blue said:
Here's the list I'm pondering:
- Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
- Subfaction: Allherd
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**
- Artefacts of Power: Bleating Gnarlstaff
- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
- Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
- Spells: Viletide
Doombull (180)***
- General
- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
- Artefacts of Power: Brayblast Trumpet
- Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
BATTLELINE
Gors (110)*
- Brayhorn Blower
- Banner Bearer
- Paired Hacking Blades
Ungors (80)*
- Brayhorn Blower
- Banner Bearer
- Halfhorn
- Pitted Blade
Gors (110)*
- Banner Bearer
- Brayhorn Blower
- Foe-render
- Paired Hacking Blades
BEHEMOTH
Chaos Gargant (145)***
Cygor (210)***
Chaos Gargant (145)***
OTHER
Cockatrice (105)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
CORE BATTALIONS
*Galletian Veterans
**Warlord
***Linebreaker
TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The AppBig focus on Slakefay, with lots of units that love that extra movement and are happy starting on the board: Gargant, Enlightened, Cockarice and Cygor. They then most of the Brayherd stuff on ambush for tricks and shenanigans.
If I wanted to go full.OTT, I could drop one Gargant and the Cockarice for another 9 enlightened but feels like overkill.
Planning on converting gargants as giant chaos spawn as I hate the model.
Not a bad list. I ran something similar over the weekend at a 2 day tournament, but I had 9 Morghurite spawn in as well.
I agree with @The Red King - definitely double up your Enlightened. 6 Enlightened on foot are a pretty serious hammer, and the best output in your list. You'd do well to double up your Gor as well - 20 dual weapon Gor with AoA dish out some serious damage too, especially if you have a Giant next to them. It's also worth getting Wild Rampage on one of your bray shamans - exploding 6s on the Enlightened or Gor block really ramps up their numbers.
I totally get the Ghurish Rage Doombull take as a general. My general was a bray shaman over the weekend, and despite bubble wrapping him, it was all too easy for my opponents to kill him. Losing that +3 move from Slakefray makes the game so much harder, especially if you're taking this much MSU. Doombull's command ability also gives a potential charge on the Cygor that can bypass unleash hell. Cygor is a decent pick in a list like this, as they can screen off some of your more fragile stuff. Don't be afraid to send him in.I don't think you're getting much out of allherd. It's definitely strong, but on MSU 10 mans you're probably better with Darkwalkers or Gavespawn. Darkwalkers makes getting objectives and battle tactics super simple. Desecrate, Aid of the Wilderness, and Rampaging Beastherd are all practically auto complete, and you can get onto almost any objective at any time. You've then got cunning manoeuvre which is easy in Slakefray anyway, and then probably eye for an eye, against the odds, or the target a unit with ritual and destroy. Gavespawn is the pick for Slakefray MSU though, but you'll want at least 6 spawn to make it worth doing.
Having played a list very similar to this over the weekend what I can say for sure is that you need a bigger hammer in it. You've got the output here to kill most things, but you'll really struggle against a big hitter, which will eventually clean you out. Tzaangor enlightened on foot are killy and will go toe to toe against most threats, but they can't kill something like Teclis, Alarielle, Archaon, Frostlord on Stonehorn, a Mega Gargant, Kragnos, etc etc. There's plenty of armies out there that are running big hitters like this, which will probably kill 2 of your units a turn and leave you unable to score from turn 3 onwards. Bulls fill this spot nicely, but are costly. I lost 2 games this weekend because I didn't have an answer to Alarielle, but any other big hitter would have done the same to me. That depends on your meta though, and if you're playing tournaments - if you aren't playing competitively, then spamming Slakefray MSU will probably do you very well, because most people just can't deal with it.
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Just now, Myrdin said:
Possible new Gor scuplts after all this time ?
Yes I know this is 40K but look at the models themself. You replace the weapons, and maybe few of the trinkets and you have a proper AoS Gor right there. Pretty much what they did with Tzaangors, could be done here as well.
I mean, its about damn time Beastmen got some new scuplts consider the age of our model lines.
What do you think, possible or not ?
It looks like they were made for AoS then someone forgot to finish them, so they didn't release with our book. Cool looking models, just wish they were a proper AoS release!
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17 hours ago, The Red King said:
Side note. FAQ is up. Nothing huge. Somehow enlightened on foot were changed to 90 points so I dont know how that typo made it in?
90 points for enlightened on foot is insanely cost effective. They're 10 points a wound, which is cheaper than Gor at 11 points a wound, and with a 4+ save. Only Ungor, Warhounds and Tzaangor (!?) provide cheaper wounds. They're on par with dual wield Gors for damage output, and beat them against high rend targets, before applying their potential +1 to wound. This is all before considering their ability to shut off commands.
6 enlightened on foot for 180 points is a legit threat, and one of the most efficient units our book has. I'm expecting to see them spammed.
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15 hours ago, BluffCityAoS said:
As a bit of anecdotal evidence there are a few lists that have make good use of Bestigors (a 30 man block in Quakefray at 4-1 at WHW, 20 in Gavespawn at 4-1 at Colonial Carnage). While I agree with your general point that any other unit in the book either does more damage or lasts longer I don't think any one unit in the book can do both like Bestigors can. If you need both a hammer and an anvil its hard to find an answer quite as good as bestigors.
I still think they're overcosted but I've played about 6 games with a block of 30 against some tough lists and they're absolutely a pain to get through or around.Bestigors seem to be great at denying your opponent objectives. They're finding a new role as a tarpit/anvil/hammer, a bit like dragon ogres were last season. It seems that Bestigors with a buff or debuff piece to support have excellent staying power (Morghurite spawn for -1 attack, Cockatrice for hitting on 6+ only, Cygor priest or Ritual for 6+ ward etc). They've also got their 5+ rally. I was on the 'Bestigors are Worstigors' train for a little while, but after seeing their successes I think I'm coming round - I'm taking 20 from now on.
I think it's also worth considering the book battle tactic 'Rampaging Beastherd'. Roughly speaking its 'Take an objective off your opponent with a unit of 10 or more models.' Taking a unit of 20 infantry makes this basically an auto complete, unless you're up against hordes. Bestigors do this really well.
I think Bestigors are an excellent example of the strategic depth of AoS, and BoC. Compared to other units in BoC for survivability or damage output, they don't look that great. When considering the current season though, where we're generally fighting over 3 objectives in most battle plans, having a brawling brick that can fill multiple roles is a solid choice. Ultimately, AoS is about scoring points rather than winning combats, and Bestigors are pretty good at scoring you points and denying them for your opponent.
My Bestigors are some of the best painted models in my army, and I love getting them on the table, so some of this may just be confirmation bias on my part
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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:
Don’t you worry: The talking and ranting has always been part of the hobby (whf times). Most people were upset with the nonsensical broken rules (untouchable and ethereal mage, that phoenix immortality banner, Death Star Witches + Mindrazor)
looking back whf was an utter mess - we still loved it though (there wasn’t another place to go as well)
Edit: Much of the ranting can be avoided by following a simple design principle: Make units and synergies decent.
Not super powerful, just decent. (GW overblows into one direction all the time: Activation Wars, Save stacking, Mortal Wounds, Battle Tactics in Battletomes etc.)Sure was! I fondly remember my unkillable nurgle Daemon Prince that was -2 to hit and regenerated wounds constantly. I had to stop playing him because it was so obviously broken. Then there were the end times rules, but we don't talk about that.
I agree with you about making stuff decent. Battle tactics are especially busted at the moment I think. As mentioned, I play BoC. We've got a tactic which is roughly 'put 2 units wholly in cover outside of your territory'. Having such an easy tactic to play turn 1, as well as cunning manoeuvre, gives you a massive early game advantage. MWs are one thing, but straight up scoring points by just putting a model somewhere is a whole new level of power creep. That's something that can only be fixed with a new edition or TO comp.
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3 hours ago, Bosskelot said:
Just to be clear most of these influencers barely play the game if at all.
Valrak literally admitted recently he doesn't play 40k so his opinions on the state of the game can't really be given a ton of weight.
I think there's a consistent issue across AOS and 40K right now where they've had a large influx of new fans who in many cases have spent loads of money on model collections and then found out they don't actually enjoy the games, or they just don't like tabletop wargaming period. So despite having like, 3-5 games under their belts they suddenly become experts in how the games should be changed. It's about simplification, but even then things like OPR exist and are free; they can move over to those systems and play them at any time, and yet they don't. Because even those systems are too much for them, because fundamentally they just cannot get into wargaming. It isn't really something they'll ever enjoy and yet they'll complain endlessly that games should bend over to accommodate them when really no changes could ever actually make them sit down and read and memorize the rules. Because that's what the issue is.Not to say both AOS and 40K are flawless, far from it, and there are plenty of improvements that could be made to both. Sigmar should've yeeted the double turn, fixed its shooting mechanics and introduced proper terrain rules in 3rd; 40K could legit use some parsing down of stratagems and doctrine-style army rules to simplify the game. But that's the thing; you do all these things and these same people will still not play the games, they'll still have complaints about how they're too complicated.
Interesting point. In the age of the internet and smart phones, the easiest part of our hobby now is talking and complaining about hobby (including game mechanics). Heck, I'm on my work PC right now reading AoS forums, because I can't do anything else hobby wise from here. Actually getting games in on the tabletop is probably the most challenging part.
Talking about gaming is much easier than gaming, so much of the talk about gaming should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt.-
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15 hours ago, Popisdead said:
Warhammer Fantasy was subject to abysmal dice spiking. 20 goblins could win Combat Res over 10 elite elves through cause you just needed those 4 goblins to roll 5s and the 4 elves to roll 1s and 2s.... with 5 dice each. The points cost disparity was terrible; 60 points of goblins compared to 180 points of elves. And then the fixes were ASF, then ASF being a mechanic to RR hits which of course caused an uproar of complaints that extended to Horde formation, the power scroll, 6th spells in lores.
I once blew up a unit of 100 clanrats by flank charging with 5 Ungor Raiders. I somehow won combat and my opponent failed 2 leadership tests on box cars. It's one of my fondest gaming memories, but it does show how busted certain mechanics were in fantasy
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27 minutes ago, Myrdin said:
Bestigors are way to overpriced in my oppinion. If they were 160 I`d say that be a somewhat fair price, considering they are 2A and 1 dmg only and in the point range they sit now everything else we have hits harder or lasts longer, or both.
At this point cost they need to have more synergy with their own passive abilities and better stat line. If not then they need to drop a big chunk in points.
A good player making big plays with Beastmen is not unheard of, but thats the 1/100 veteran who can play literally any other army and still come on top case.
I agree, the cost doesn't really justify the output. I think there's a place for them as an anvil unit if their points come down a bit. Bestigors, like Dragon Ogres and the Shaggoth, are likely over costed because of how well they did last season.
We have to settle up our 'Fun tax'. -
8 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
How is the MW-Situation in the two new Battletomes?
Scroll up to see my posts on BoC. TLDR is Bullgors do truckloads of MWs so they'll be auto include, and the MW output is so powerful that you can effectively bypass counterplay.
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List with Bestigors that went 4-1 is here, link provides a write up:
Top Three AoS Lists for Colonial Carnage - Woehammer
Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
– Army Subfaction: Gavespawn
– Grand Strategy: Desecrating Brayherd
– Triumphs: Inspired
LEADER
1 x Beastlord (145)*
– General
– Command Traits: Bestial Cunning
– Artefacts: Slitherwrack Helm
– Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)***
– Spells: Wild Rampage
1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)***
– Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
1 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)***
– Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet
– Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
BATTLELINE
3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)
20 x Bestigors (440)**
10 x Gors (110)**
– Paired Hacking Blades
10 x Gors (110)**
– Paired Hacking Blades
10 x Gors (110)**
– Paired Hacking Blades
10 x Ungors (80)***
– Pitted Blade
OTHER
1 x Cockatrice (105)
1 x Cockatrice (105)
6 x Beasts of Chaos Slaangor Fiendbloods (260)*
CORE BATTALIONS:
*Galletian Command
**Galletian Veterans
***Warlord
TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)List looks like it focuses on debuffs/control to make the Bestigors an immovable brick on the central objective. There's multiple screens/chaff that just stall out the opponent and keep them off, preventing them from scoring. Very interesting - completely different take from what many other BoC players have been thinking of.
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10 hours ago, JackOfBlades said:
9 Bullgors can deal a max of 9 mortals on the charge which wont wipe out a 10 wound screen, and so the bullgors cant fight the juicier target in the combat phase, but i suppose you are getting around that by softening the screen with ungor raiders first (unless im completely missing some damage source). I am not disagreeing with you per se, im sure your opponents have tried stuff. But for the cost of that combo: 585 + 160 + presumably 110 for ungor raiders + command trait + command point, youd certainly expect it to do some damage right? I do agree that maintaining counterplay through gameplay as well and not only list tailoring is important.
With the Lumineth castle, isnt that basically a skew counter against elite armies? genuine question.Aye there's plenty of ways to soften things up - raiders are just one option. There'a an abundance of 8" range attacks too that'll do the job, as well as a few D3 MW spells and abilities you can go for. You're right about the cost, it ain't cheap - pretty much everything that does reliable damage now costs an arm and a leg in BoC, but that's a rant for another day. We haven't seen many tournament lists with the new BoC tome yet, but I'll wager that the bulk will have this combo in to some degree, because it's the thing that dishes out a truckload of mortal wounds.
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20 minutes ago, JackOfBlades said:
Have your opponents tried to adapt? Though i suppose youre referring to the internal balance as well if the other units are just not viable, but they seem to be.
They have with screening and blocking off deployment zones etc, but the MW output on the charge is so massive that you just blitz straight through and then into whatever is next. The MW output makes screening almost pointless. No matter how good the screen is, or how combat effective it is, taking 9 MWs that's basically unavoidable is likely to outright kill it. You could probably tailor a list that could stop it, with multiple screens and wards, or some big tarpits and movement debuffs, but the fact is that in AoS, if you've got the ability to point and click 30 MWs wherever you want, there's very little your opponent can do other than take the punch to the face.
Getting glass cannon Bullgors into their target used to be a fine art, but now they deal so many MWs, it makes so many other layers to the game almost irrelevant. The same can be said about the LrL Teclis + Sentinels castle list that's doing so well. If there's some way your army can project mass MWs without much counter play, it's so powerful that it's difficult to justify anything else, or spend your time working out all the other little shenanigans that make your army interesting.
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Beasts of Chaos 3.0
in Chaos
Posted