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Sarouan
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Posts posted by Sarouan
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2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
When talking about anti-consumer policies, I was thinking of stuff like youtube trying to sell you the ability to play videos on your phone with the screen locked as part of their premium subscription service. This was not a technological innovation. It was always possible to play videos with a locked screen. What they did was change their website/app so that it normally pauses the video, and then bring back the feature for a fee. That did not improve the product at all: They first made youtube less convenient to use, then tried to sell the convenience feature they removed back. In my mind, what is currently happening with warscrolls is similar. It used to be no problem to look up basically any warscroll from any device with a web browser. You now need a dedicated app to do the same, and it's not even clear that they will indeed stay free in the future.
Except that youtube products and GW products don't have the same impact with what you feel is "anti-consumer practices".
Youtube is solely only able to be used online on their platform. AoS can be played with miniatures anywhere you set a physical board and you can buy rules in a book. You don't have to be all digital to play AoS.
So the removal of free warscrolls has actually not the same impact as trying to sell videos on your phone with the screen locked, talking about the product as a whole like you said.
Free warscrolls was just a convenience for AoS. It wasn't a main feature of AoS.
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52 minutes ago, pnkdth said:
I meant, how do you know the real motive behind wanting warscrolls to be out in the open is to avoid buying the rules?
Well, I mean...it's the fact people feel they are pressured to buy the book to have the rules that they are so concerned about the removal of free warscrolls that is clearly getting out in this thread, at least from those who are the more vehement.
So yeah, money is the factor here. Because for convenience...there's the app to keep consulting the profiles online whenever you want, isn't there.
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1 hour ago, Orbei said:
And what if you are a new player who is trying to pick an army and wants to know what the models do before buying them?
Well, he certainly doesn't start by the warscrolls on the webstore, because they won't be telling him much at the beginning. He asks someone who plays first and gets a demo ideally. And it's better to direct him towards the battletomes instead (especially when they're in a store and most shop manager - even GW ones - will allow you to show you what's inside for illustrations of their arguments).
Like I said, free warscrolls on the webstore aren't for new players. They're for people who know the game.
1 hour ago, Orbei said:What about wanting to know what units of an opposing faction do?
That's a fair question ! How do you think people playing 40k or Warhammer Battle before did ? The old way...by asking people who do / reading articles online, read your opponent's book or buy the book yourself if you really want to be knowledgeable on a higher level of competition.
Like I said, convenience was never in question for free warscrolls.
1 hour ago, Orbei said:They are saying that GW is adding a paywall to generate revenue, rather than doing so by offering customers an improved product/value proposition. Something that was previously free is no longer free. It didn't get better in the process.
But it wasn't a product in itself. It was simply a rule given by GW "for free", with no guarantee it would stay that way forever.
In fact, if you're talking about the real products like miniatures, you can argue that the warscroll present in boxes before the new 3.0 package is indeed not the same "value" than the one present in the new 3.0 package (there's still something to play, but less detailed and "updated"). However, for boxes that do not have the 3.0 package, warscroll is still the same. In fact, you have even older boxes with an even older version of the warscroll inside.
Does that mean they are all products giving less value for the money ? Not sure about that.
As for the real rule products - meaning books and campaign boxes...they are not concerned by the free warscrolls for an obvious reason.
That it was a convenience that's no more there, I agree.
As for the paywall...well, yes. That's why I'm saying the main issue is that they don't want to pay for the rules. They don't want to pay for the app for the same reason.
1 hour ago, Orbei said:Now you need to buy the battletome just to see what things do.
That's not at all what warscrolls do. They give the rules of the unit, but units aren't just something you take out of context and - most importantly - from their army's synergy. Online reviews and social media discussions are much more relevant for that purpose. And they'll still be around.
Exactly the same for40k and Warhammer Battle before. If their players managed, you will be able to as well.
Is it more tedious and less convenient ? Of course it is ! But if you're so determined not to pay just to "see what things do"...don't worry. You'll still find a way in the end. Like 40 players and Battle ones before you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy free warscrolls aren't around anymore. But trying to build an argument out of "I don't want to pay for the rules" to justify using free warscrolls instead of, you know, the books....well, we all know that the end reason is money, be it for GW or the customers.
Of course if there's a "free stuff", it's the free stuff that will be used. That's not "missed sales" or "free advertising"...that's just human nature taking the most convenient and cheapest way. Free warcrolls combined the 2. Now they're not there anymore ? Depends of your motivation to keep having "free rules" or want to "see what things do" before buying.
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23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:
Who actually does this?
Usually people playing in private groups. Of course, it doesn't concern people playing at official GW events - well, maybe very cheeky ones.
23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:Plus, how do you know "the real issue" is not wanting to pay for the rules?
Because if you have the rules, you don't need to check the warscrolls on the webstore. They are in your book.
23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:Is this something you can back up?
Same for people here complaining about free warscrolls being removed as a big deal in itself : personnal subjective opinion with no numbers backing them.
23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:Wondering since most people I listen to enjoyed them for their convenience not as a replacement for the rules.
Yes, it was very convenient. Convenience was never in question. Thread went on more than that, though, and that was the other arguments I was answering to.
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3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
I mean the currently legal ones including changes they made for 3.0 that actually didn't explain their workings better than the previous text.
Oh, that. They didn't change the free warscrolls that were on the webstore with the 3.0 FAQ.
3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:Downloading it now on the off chance that it's still the same when I actually want to use it is a bit more of a hassle.
Was the same when they were available on the webstore. Nothing said they were updated at all, you had to check manually yourself if you didn't follow the meta of AoS at the dates FAQs were updated / expansions came.
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28 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
I think you are right in identifying GW's motivation for making the warscrolls less accessible. They want to sell more books and turn you onto the app (hopefully making that Warhammer+ subscription more attractive to you). There is no great enigma here. But it's not a good thing. It's like the definition of anti-consumer tactics: Trying to get more money out of your customers not by improving your products, but by making them less convenient to use and selling the convenience back to them at a price. Which, by the way, only affects your most honest customers. Those that have no problem with piracy don't get penalized in this way.
Improving your products ? What are you talking about ? Free warscrolls on the webstore aren't "improved products" in themselves. How do you see the recent battletomes for Stormcast Eternals and Orruk Warclans for 3.0, then ? Because they are a different version of the rules themselves, and what you could call an upgrade of a previous product (in this case, battletome for the previous edition).
Or are you advocating GW shouldn't make new editions at all ? That's another debate entirely.
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3 minutes ago, EMMachine said:
This works if the warscroll is shown completly, the problem is if the rules were added contextdriven to the text. Something like the last Article about Bastian Carthalos:
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Yeah, but most of the time prints of the review have quite bad quality.
Yeah, that's why I said it's more tedious now. But it still doesn't stop you from doing it if you really don't want to buy the book.
I bought the book even if I don't intend to play Stormcast Eternal as my main army, by the way, because I can and it's more convenient to me.
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2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
I just realized I didn't get the changed warscrolls for my CoS armies when available, which means there is no book or intended way outside the Warhammer + app to get the right scrolls. I'd need to download all the CoS warscrolls while still available and I really don't feel like doing that.
So it doesn't matter if they were on the webstore or in the app, if you don't feel downloading everything anyway.
And yeah, it's a lot of work either way. Playing AoS up to date isn't easy !
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15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:
I think you would buy the book for your main army anyway because you will most likely need the Allegiance Abilities.
With reviews online, it's not a problem to have them. Even more with 3.0, since they're even less of them and options now (the way subfactions are treated is a big part of it, of course).
15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:So like others said, you wouldn't need the book if you only want one unit as an ally (at least as long as you get the points for that unit).
Granted, but in that case, it's still easy to have what you need from a review. It's more tedious, indeed, but if that's your only argument, that doesn't stand IMHO.
If players really don't want to buy the book and want to have just the rules of one allied unit, they won't just stop at the warscroll missing from the webstore.
About the "missing sale"...TBH, I'm not sure people stopping at that - not having the warscroll easily available without having to pay - are actually thinking of always buying miniatures from the GW webstore, in the end. If you just need the rules and don't care to have the official GW rules at hand, I'm pretty sure you also don't mind using miniatures from other sources. GW can't miss a sale that was never intended at the beginning, after all.
15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:It's basicly the same with the campaign books. In second edition if a warscroll was updated in a campaign book, it was possible to download and print the new Warscroll, while using the points from the warscroll builder, or get an update from a 2 player campaign box that wasn't released with the Battletome and was most likely sold out with release.
It was possible to get warscroll updates for free and without subscriptions.
It's possible now via the app and the code from your battletome, actually.
And if you don't want to use the app...warscrolls updates can be found in the FAQ now (like they did upgrade the army endless spells when 3.0 came).
So not having the warscrolls on the webstore isn't a problem in itself here.
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2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:
Can't check now, but I thought the file on the store page was already a link to another filestore, so the PDFs themselves wouldn't be traffic from the store page.
That doesn't say anything about the load the store itself generates before clicking that page.
Nope, they're stocked on www.games-workshop.com .
Moreover, they're still there. It's just the link that was removed on the webstore. Found this one through Google search typing "warscroll" with the name of the unit :
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/warhammer-aos-liberators-en.pdf or https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-freeguild-greatswords-en.pdf
Of course, it's the 2.0 version. For Stormcast Eternals, they're not the updated one.
About the "free advertisement" argument, I do get your point from a customer's point of view. Believe it or not, as a customer myself, I do agree with Runebrush here : rather than keeping them on the webstore, I would simply move them on warhammer-community. However, if I was in the shoes of GW and seeing what is the content of new battletomes...I do see why they took another road in the end. Warscrolls are now a huger part of the main rules than in 2.0 - and thus the battletome's rule content. If they were still "free", there's even less incentive to buy the books afterwards, IMHO.
Obviously, it really concerns the veteran players most of the time. Battletomes are still very good value for the complete newbies ; having the lore, a good painting guide and all the rulesto play your army in the same book. People really using warscrolls on the webstore are more those who know the game for quite some time / did buy the books from previous versions and thus don't need that muych the lore and painting guides - they're just looking for the rules. And they know warscrolls are half the battle (points and core rules can be quite easy to find on reviews online / can be found in the general hanbook for older versions).
Which is why they are angry GW didn't put the new 3.0 warscrolls on the webstore, because it's more tedious to gather the full rules from reviews now. The battletome looks the more convenient way...for a price, and that's the real issue IMHO. They don't want to pay for the rules, in the end.
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Free advertising ? Not really. People wanting to see the warscrolls are people who already know the game. Actually, it's more a deterrent to impulse buy miniatures : if you want to see the warscrolls, you want to be sure if it's interesting first in game.
The traffic here is more about "jamming" the sales than anything else. Which is why I said it can be a problem in the end.
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4 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:
I mean, it's not a coincidence that the free warscrolls were on GW's webstore.
Which can be also a problem in itself, since it means it generates more traffic on their website mainly aimed for sales.
Moving this aspect to an app specially made for that is a choice that can be understandable, in the end. Gives also more control of their IP, which we know GW is VERY fond of.
I'll be honest and certainly a bit caustic here, by saying the coincidence I see is that the new battletome rules other than the warscrolls are quite lower than in previous editions. So there's even less value to buy the battletome if you have access to the warscrolls like before, if we speak purely about equal game.
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14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
For allies, warscrolls in boxes or website (which can legally be printed) are quite important.
It's still the same problem if you don't have access to the internet or don't buy the recent kits (what about having an old box with thus obsolete rules in them ? Or buying second-handed miniatures ? Not useful as well ).
Yes, it was useful for allies, I do agree. And you are right to have downloaded everything when it was still available. That's not piracy. Piracy is having the current Stormcast Eternal book without paying for it.
14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:If I wouldn't be following TGA and my Stormcast inclusion went up by the price of a Battletome, I would decline that game or put a cat on my shoulder (by lack of a parrot).
I think people in your case would simply not play with allies if they really don't want to buy an additionnal book. Most really willing to play allies will more likely buy the book, especially if they play on the competitive scene and that the list with allies is really performing good there.
Not even talking about allies being actually a thing in most of the played games (the last limitations with 3.0 FAQ don't help).
Depends of many factors, here. It's not just "no more warscrolls on GW's website ! I don't play allies anymore !". After all, if we're at that point...we're already invested a lot of money in GW products. We're not burning our army with a video on youtube in a burst of rage...for the majority of us.
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TBH, the true appeal of the "free" warscrolls is that the rules were actually included in the box rather than on the website (which, mind those who easily forget this, is no different than a app in terms of accessibility, since you have to be connected to the internet to have it - and no, not everyone has access to it whenever he wants, even in these days).
Currently we have a very "basic" version in the new boxes. The intent is still same ; being able to play without having the army book. And it still has the same purpose...with less details, granted.
The end purpose was always to guide new players towards their army battletome to have the "full rules" (even with the old version of warscrolls in the box : just having the unit warscroll wasn't enough and everyone knew it).
Does it make a difference that the online rules are moved to an app (paying or not) ? To me, yes, because I never use my phone to go on internet and refuse to do so. Call me old school if you want, but that's how I am : to me a phone is just that - a phone. So it's annoying to have it "locked" on an app. But then for other people, it's the other way around - and I can't forget that my tendency to read the warscrolls on GW's website from my laptop was also not convenient to other people as well.
It was never "free" to everyone, in reality. Either you bought the boxes and have the paper version, or have to go on internet. Now we still have a paper version, much less detailed indeed, and the online version is on an app - but with the full rules. There are simply more restrictions than before.
That said, saying "players will get the rules one way or another" was always true, no matter the edition. Justifications for piracy were always there. The 3.0 version doesn't change that at all, in truth. Those people advocating for piracy will certainly tell a different story, but I don't believe them. To me, even with free warscrolls around, they would still have advocated for pirating GW rules without buying them - because their main reasons were never with the level of details on warscrolls in the box / disappearance of warscrolls on GW's website from the beginning. It's just an excuse for their own deliberate choices of going that way, that's all. The real intent on this topic is for them to feel morally better by choosing that way, to me. It's a simple fallacy of the mind : in reality, they are no better at all in 3.0 than they were in 2.0 or even before...even at the beginning of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
As for the impact on the game...I don't think it's really that big. To me, what is having a big impact and slows the popularity of AoS are the written rules themselves (more oriented towards the competitive scene, clearly, and much less intuitive / quick to apply than previous versions), the way last battletomes show what will be 3.0 (less army special rules / choices of command traits and aptitudes out of the units) and the current chaos with GW releases that is really frustrating to a lot of players.
Basically the same mess than 40k V9 is having for quite some time.
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4 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:
The model is good, but we don't need another generic barbarian warband. They do desperately need to redo the marauders kit. Understandable people are disappointed that it seems we're getting something not many people really wanted instead of something everybody wanted.
Who knows, maybe that's the new marauder kit for AoS.
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*shrugs*
If the new warband of Chaos marauders is a box of 10 with stendard and musician options, I'm fine with the generic design.With some luck, new warbands follow the KIll Team scheme : boxes with options for the skirmish game, but also able to build a band with "normal weapons" for their "big brother" game.
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3 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
As long as that mouse is a metaphor for rat, I wouldn’t mind
Who knows, maybe there's a spider /barbarian rat in the warcry new warbands !
"I'm serving the Everchosen, yes yes !"
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Wonder why people are surprised that Darkoath people are "generic chaos barbarians".
That's pretty much what they always were. Even when Chaos Marauders first appeared with their punk design.
Since GW is clearly going back at the bases with Warhammer "not the Old World" Age of Sigmar recently, it was to be expected.
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17 minutes ago, novakai said:
Road to disappointment here we come
I decided to disappoint myself, this time : so that's why I'm believing the preview for warcry will be a trailer announcing another trailer for the next edition of Warcry. With a nursery rhyme on crabs.
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Ah, it's that time of the year again. The days before the "biggest preview about Warhammer ever" where all wild rumors circulate, until the day of preview comes with its unavoidable disappointment when GW reveals a mouse instead of the big mountain we made ourselves.
Let's enjoy it to the fullest !
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1 hour ago, Black_Templar_Lad said:
With the comment of Chaos Dwarves but their not the opposing faction, I guess they manufactured the terrain? One of the bits in the spider man trailer looks like an exhaust/pipe/furnace thing.
Spider fella looks bloody amazing i can't wait to see the warband.
It's more linked to the story of the new boxed set, to me.
Pretty clear its theme is the heart of the Varanite production's industry, that's set deep in the tunnels under the Varanspire since last boxed set. And who says "industry" and "chaos" usually links that with "chaos dwarves". Bet they'll appear more in the background than anything...like those sad Warcry quests suggesting you'll fight great antagonits and turns out you beat them off screen at the end of the third game.
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Here, have some Chaos Dwarves goodness.
Spoiler
Now that the Chaos Dwarf fandom is pouncing on that distraction, we can come back to the new Warcry boxed set.
TBH, if the terrain we saw some glimpses are part of it, it looks like it's quite big nonetheless. I expect a bit higher than Octavius prices. Best thing for Warcry is certainly having similar releases than for Kill Team ; several themed boxes released more regularly instead of Blood Bowl / Necromunda kind of calendar releases.
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Unpopular opinion : complex and detailed rule systems don't make them better ones.
(Very) unpopular opinion : too much focus on balance and points isn't needed to make a good and fun game. It actually has the opposite effect.
(Widely) unpopular opinion : being able to build lists with only optimized units / synergies doesn't mean the game is badly designed : it means the player building the list wants to play an optimized game and should play against someone who has the same mindset than him.
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10 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:
So my "old" Chaos Knights arrived. I'm glad I opted for them instead of the new ones. There are flaws for sure - the mold lines are downright egregious (I probably spent as much time removing them as actually assembling the models), the torsos don't always fit perfectly onto the legs, etc. But it is so nice to have a kit where everything is interchangeable, where magnetizing the arms is reasonably easy, and where the riders aren't molded onto the horses so the only "sub-assembly" you need to do is to not glue the riders on until after they're painted (I'm compulsive, so I'm also painting the pauldrons separately, but you really don't need to). And the best thing of all is that looking at these models...I can actually see myself painting 15 of them. Each one is going to be subtly unique because everything is interchangeable (napkin math says you can make at least ~8,000 different unique knights from this kit, even counting the shield arm as one piece), but they all look similar enough that you can use the same painting approach for each, and while there is detail here and there, none of it is excessive or difficult to reach.
So in the end, your main grievance is not with details on new models at all ?
The End of Free Warscrolls
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
I know ! But that means it's always a veteran that knows how the game is played who show the new player how it works. It was indeed convenient to do this way.
Now ? Well...veteran players doing demos will use more books than before, I guess. Or the app.