jeanfluflu

oh my bad, i almost never did any 1 or 2 so at least here's that but thanks for the precision

1-2 still does one damage

I just finished a game with a almost full sacro sanct army, the list was the following: Hallowed knight stormkeep. Grands strategy: precious sorcery Lord arcanum on Tauralon: celestial menagerie, azyrite halo, drakescale armor, call for aid Lord relictor: translocation knight incantor: celestial blades 3x5 sequitors 5 evocators 3 dracolines 2 stormdrakes 2x celetar balista Everblaze comet On this setup sequitors delas MW when charged, can fight back after they die, can make a sqaud of 5 reapear somewhere else...etc. Tauralon is a tank, stormdrake brings utility and HUGE projection, translocation is a game winning ability....etc. Against a khorne list: reaper of vengeance: Skarbrand wrath of khorne bloodthirster bloodthirster of unfettered fury khorne deamon prince bloodsecrator slaughterpriest 20 bloodletters 5 flesh hounds 10 bloodreavers 5 wrathmongers On paper very frightening, and it was, skarbrand may be fragile but he deletes pretty much everything he touches, the bloodthirsters are nice but not a huge threat for our tanky army and the rest is negligable. the scenario was APEX PREDATOR, which was in the favor of my opponentn since only heroes can score and secure objectives in this scenario. Long story short i won 24/17, tabled him and only lost the tauralon (with a pro double move skarbrand who then charged into my poor poor bird to delete him from existence) a couple of sequitors and my squad of evocators so here's my thoughts of sacrosanct: Tauralon: great utility, he synergized the balistas and the drake thanks to his command trait so well! He helped a lot for objectives and tactics and can tank very very well thanks to the drakescale armor and a couple of armor buff, very vulnerable to MW though. B+ Balistas: Very good unit, picking one is too little and 3 sounds like too much points for such specific niche (sniping low wound heroes) but they do that perfectly! combine this with a couple of MW here and there (which this army pumps A LOT) and no <6W heroes should survive long. A+ Sequitors: in this particular setup they deal MW when you charge them, then again when you kill them, they can fight back when they die on a 4+ AND they get a natural 5+ ward. you can put an extra squad of them when needed with "call for aid", they are simply amazing. B+ Evocators/Dracoline: Evocators feels great with the current state of translocation (which is broken BTW) and play almost like annihilators with the extra layer of utility on the MW (you can charge and fight a sqaud and use your pile-in movement to "slide" arround the unit and snipe a character hidden behind with your zap zap). Dracolines are better in every way, they punch with so many attacks that you will deal damages and the extra MW are very appreciated. They play the same as before and do it slightly better so i'd say they are pretty good. B+ incantor: cheap and have a scroll, not much else but he's really really appreciated! B+ Lord relictor: i hope they FAQ the translocation because right now it feels like cheating. other than that he's a beast, he's versatile and his ither spells are nice. As long as translocation stays the same he's an auto include! S Stormdrake: the have everything, what else can i say? MW that AUTO HIT on a shooting attack, MONSTER keyword, a decent volume of rend 2 damage 2 attacks making them valuable in combat AND -1 to get wounded...... why would you not play a sqaud of these in every of your game? S

In tempest lord prosecutors are battleline so yes, only problem is the good ones are the ones with javelin, you ave the ones with hammers here so it will recquire a bit of conversion to make things good but you'll get some lances and shields with the vindictors so why not. 3+ save battleline that can shoot decently, fly and charge at 18" with 3d6 yes please! Vandus is meh but can serve as a nice additional concussor if needed.

I get what you mean and i agree with most of what you say. But i think that i would rather pay Yndrasta less and sacrifice her killing profile. She want to do two things at the same time and it makes her loose a bit of interest in my opinion, but it may be because i have a certain vision of the game. If you want to use her ability you'll stick her in the middle of your army but you will most likely not use her melee stats you paid for, it works the other way arround. If she had more consistent shooting damage i'll probably like her more as she can do damages and be a buffing presence at the same time (not sacrifying any of these two aspects in a turn). That's the reason i prefer the Prime, for his price he's good at one role, you pay the points for something specific which is direct and effective. It's easier to me to grasp the game this way (tank/dps/support categories) the game, his rules and the layers of extra complexity can be overwhelming sometimes and i don't loose focus when each of my pieces have a specific role set up in advance and designed for it.

An avenger build certainly looks great, something like: Krondys Knight draconis celestant prime 2 stormdrakes 2 stormdrakes 3 prosecutors javelin 3 prosecutors javelin All in tempest lords to make prosecutors battleline and get the bonus on charge shenanigan (even though we don't need this). I believe we are already short on points and we can't really commit to a full monster build without loosing a lot of board control but it is worth the try :).

i'm really curious about the 2x6 castigators and 2x3 evocats, how did it went? Also i love the knight excelsior with MSU retributors, i might try this as well

Yndrasta is like 5pts less than the prime who clearly fight in another category. First you have the Rend 3 att, then the auto 12" charge each turn and the D3MW blast that can easily target hidden heroes and higly valuable targets. It's a shame because you want to make her combo with paladins units but these builds will usually be slow and the prime compensate for that as he can operate in solo missions while you want yndrasta to stay with the crowd. I agree, she's a little bit overpriced for what she does but again this is not something really damaging as it can change next season with a couple of points adjustments.

I'm going to try the new models this monday, hopefully getting good use of the Tauralon as @PJetski convinced me of his potential. I have two lists available and i'm not certain of the use of the secondary characters, so anyway here's the framework: Scion of the storm, hammer of sigmar (concussors battleline, LOL). Lord arcanum on Tauralon: thunderous volley, celestial menagerie, drakescale armor and celestial blades. Lord relictor: translocation knight incantor: azyrite halo 2x5 liberators 4 concussors 2 stormdrake guards 6 vanguard raptors Everything on a battle regiment for the sweet one drop army build. I have a nice potential of damages with the thunderous volley on the vanguard raptor, i'd argue this is my win condition, that's why i chose scion of the storm to at least protect them from shooting and/or control effects on the first turn while they stay in the sky My plan is to let my opponent start the game so i can get a potential double turn early on and drop to take back control of the boards where it's needed. concussors pack a hell of a punch and stormdrake guards/tauralon are fantastic tanking units that i can get pretty much anywhere i need them to be and are both -1 to get wounded and 3+ save. My dilmena is the following, the two buff heroes i'm with are nice like this but i'm a bit sceptikal of the value the knight incantor brings beside his scroll (a great safety net against tough magic armies but not very usefull against others). If i decide to cast mystic shield/azyrite halo he would likely miss his spell or get unbind, what i mean is that his value depends on what the enemy brings. Lord relictor is a beast, the TP prayer as well as the healing/debuff he offers would help me to save the raptors/debuff a piece that my tauralon has to block (suddendly becoming -1 to hit, -1 to wound on a 2+ rerollable save). But i can swap these two for a knight vexillor with the TP banner (banner who works on any unit, anywhere on the table so it's pretty versatile and stable since i don't have to roll any dices or get into range) and a lord castellant. Lord castellant brings another armor buff that i can put on the dracoth/tauralon/stormdrake guards that can also heal a little bit (much less than the D3 the relictor brings though) but it's a buff that requires no dice roll and cannot be countered ideally i would bring both relictor AND the castellant but i only have points for one of these two combos, the increase in points of all these support pieces makes a big difference when it's time to make everything fit together under 2000pts. What do you think? It's a tough call and i can't decide myself so any advices would help. Thanks!

with the presence of be'lakor he will most likely choose the raptor as his target to nullify them for at least one turn. khorne deamon prince also gives him a lot of control over the borad with his ability to divide by 2 run and charges. My best bet is to keep the menaces off the board with scion (raptors, dracoth) and then drop from the sky at the right time to kill the deamon prince and then maybe charge a key target. matchup is tough with a lot of macro decisions to make that's why i'm excited for it.

3+ save mostly

damnnit GW, i hope this is something they forgot and we can take at least the "universal" mount traits. It's a shame cause this combo on a stardrake is possible and even more oppressive since the dude has 18wounds.... so it's not a question of balance or powerlevel. Anyway thanks for the cruel but true reminder . Edit: i'll swap the comet for a knight vexillor with TP in this case, so he can TP the tauralon out or even the raptors on top of the relictor.

Man you made me reconsider my choices. If everything goes well i might try something like this next monday against a very tough khorne list: Stormkeep: hammers of sigmar, unique command ability: thunderous volley Lord arcanum on Tauralon: general, staunch defender, drakescale armor, azyrite halo and celestial instinct Lord relictor: translocation 4 concussors 3 dracolines 5 vindictors 5 vindictors 6 longstrike raptors Everblaze comet All fitting into battle regiment. In this list my goal is to play arround the Tauralon, his simple presence buff the raptors to helo them hit and wound on 2's and make unleash hell on 3+. His good save combined with all out defense, finest hour...etc can make him a good anvil on which enemy can break their legs (he can reroll saves against damage 2 attacks, has a good 12w and could be healed but the relictor in case of any problem). Celestial instinct is here to make sure he can be wherever i want him to be at any time and fill this role. The rest can stay in a defensive position arround the raptors that i can teleport away from danger thanks to the relictor. All the army deals MW in some way and the use of staunch defender combined with the good saves of vindictors help me to camp ojectives on my side. I hope it will go well cause my opponent found a very juicy army build on the internet and we're up for a bloody fight, he will play: Skarbrand Be'lakor Khorne deamon prince Wrath of khorne bloodthirster Bloodsecrator 2x10 bloodletters 2x5 flesh hounds 5 wrathmongers I'll tell you how it went, biggest threat is obviously skarbrand but i also have to worry about control abilities such as the deamon prince and be'lakor. I'm puzzled about how ot deal with this matchup, i can take the first turn which is probably the only time i could cast the comet out of unbind spell but i expose myself to a double turn and be'lakor will shutdown my raptors for first turn but if i give first turn to my oppnent there's 90% chances that i can't cast the comet, maybe i should remove it....

I think the removal of character abilities and stormhost abilities is a good sign overall. These type of things have ruined the game balance in the past and i am optimistic for the future battletome to come if they follow the same logic. Book seems balanced and fun, lost of ways to play (paladins, dragon builds, vanguard chamber TP all over the place, stormkeeep...etc) it give a very very good replayability to old players who have a nice collection of miniatures and i think is more simple of approach for new players. definitely a win, beside a couple of named characters that got trashed on the rest seems balanced and a couple of points adjustments will make things better in the future :).

I've taken a look at your list and yes i haven't considered this. The monster keyword allows him to benefit from the -1 to be wounded if you take him with a knight draconis, he's a mix of utility and tanking, in this type of build i'll try him

I'll try him but at 280pts he's competing with the knight dracothian, Bastian, Yndrasta or the celestant prime but can't bring nearly as much on the table than any of these 4. I know he's a monster/hero/sorcerer which makes him really good on paper but his offensive stats are meh for his price, so you won't send him on the melee (but you will do that with pleasure with your rend 3 knight draconis/celestant Prime). He can tank for sure and could probably be used for that (thinking abour drakescale armor on this 12wounds character is nice). He can only cast and unbind one spell without any bonus, in this situation you will more likely pay a high price for an ability that can be shut down really easily. His comet trail ability is good yes, it saves you one command point per turn but some other units can do that too (aetherwings, lord ordinator or even Bastian who can give all out attack for free). I love this miniature trust me (i spent days converting this man to give him a proper face and wings) and i'd like to see him get some usage but the loss of his spirit flasks, the mortal wound on the charge and one cast/unbind without drastically downgrading his price at all is really a huge nerf. I'll probably consider him at 235pts but not 285pts. If i'm spending nearly 300pts on a character i'd rather go the entire way and pay the 40pts difference to get Aventis instead: the fact that he can natively heal himself of D3PV each turn gives his tanking capacity an extra edge, for 40pts you get a second cast/unbind and finally his spell is rather short but deals MW without requiring a 4+ to hit before. This said i agree with you on your comments for the rest of the sacro sanct chamber, except for the exorcist maybe, i'd love to hear why you think the exorcist is better, i'd pay an incantor over this guy every day but maybe i missed something.

there's a specific command ability in the book that allows you to select a unit and shoot during hero phase. Double tapped judicators means that you use this ability on them, making shoot twice: one during hero phase, one during shooting phase.

the only subfaction that has a definitive impact on your list building is knight excellsior i believe. The bonus is so good that you want to build your army arround it, using imperatant/annihilators/protectors. I agree with you though, it has overall much lees impact on the list building than before, but it's not that bad as it opens customisation and synergies based on "ultimate" command abilities and custom heroes (which is coherent with the mindset of the 3rd edition).

Tauralon is not worth it anymore, unless you pick aventis he's a one cast sorcerer.

One liste i've considered is a drake list in tempest lord. prosecutors are battleline in this allegiance so it means that you can basically create an entire flying army to benefit from the reroll one dice on the charge (which is insane stability and movement). I know the drakes don't really worry about that but it allows for precision sniping and very slippery build, consider something like this: Tempest lords: knight draconis (celestial menagerie so all the drakes got -1 to get wounded) Krondys celestant prime 2 drakes 2 drakes 3 prosecutors 3 prosecutors you're at 1980pts, everyone go fast, can shoot and be everywhere and it fits into the one drop battalion. Maybe you can get the 2 units of drakes to merge into one big unit of 4 to get the sweet bonus from the knight on them but it's up to you (i'm afraid of big debuff such as be'lakor and things like that). I think it's pretty solid and you can do tons of stuff.

I'd argue that sequitor lost tons of tanking potential, we used to play them to stack saves and abuse the reroll to tank an objective, they are still nice but at 145pts for 5 it makes a difference at the end of your list when you need those 30 to 45pts to fit everything together. They still hit decently for their point costs and the 5+ward is really enjoyable but compare them to vindictors they are slightly worse than vindictors at tanking objective due to the native 4+save. Yes they do more damages but this isn't the role of a battleline and we have better tools to do that as well, but i think they can fit nicely in a hallowed knights stormkeep when they can fight back after dying, count as 15...etc. Evocats are definitely better, they lost their spell lore but who cares? empower was better than celestial blades anyway, they had the native charge reroll so no need for that either and the last spell was so niche that no one was playing them. The d3 damages on the mounts and the native +1attack from the lord arcanum is ace, i love it and they also gained an additional dice for the MW! Evocators on foot lost two things: first is Gavriel (who's trash now) and the second one is the 2" on the grandstaves, this makes units of 10 way less valuable. Waiting for a clarification on the translocation prayer (who needs a "can't move after being teleported") but otherwise i see no way to safely send them into combat. Castigators are better, never used them but i'm curious to see how they play their roles, i saw that they could be battleline in knight excelsior which is odd (on the big file someone shared earlier in this topic: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R35OxR0v2veogS5nfawlozkdUgg7KUVp-FhrYFk7wvo/edit?fbclid=IwAR3UpgRYPRbXtexqm0fo3Ser6lb6aLp8s1RnQDbjAkJU45Va4RgcXSfnZ5o#gid=0 ) but makes them the cheapest battleline of the book if verified. Other than that we don't want to reinforce them unless there's nothgin else to reinforce, they can benefit from empower for their shooting attacks but will mostly shoot 6 to 7 shots anyway so why bother. 2 shots Rend 2 per model, 210 for a squad of 6 when we can have judicators who are 200 for a squad of 5 and spray MW on 6 to hit, matchup is close but i'll choose the judicators every time just for that MW spray. Ballista got better, the single shot REND 3 is really attractive, but at the same time the d6 damage is swingy and we won a beautiful knight judicators who can land 2 shots rend 3 damage 3 for 205pts and comes with 2 gryph hounds for saving the backline from TP and use warcry to shoot enemy for free when they aprear close to them. Exorcist is really really bad, i mean 170pts for that? His native spell is really bad and he doesn't brings much else, pick a knight incantor over this guys you'll never regret it. Lords arcanums got better i agree, especially the dracoline one, i also love the foot one with a native thundershock on his warscroll. Pick him and select celestial blades or Azyrite halo and you'll be ready for a lot of situations. The fact that they all kept cycle of the storm ability is nice too. To finish i'd say sacrosanct chamber is still pretty good and there's tons of stuff to do with them on the right host...etc. Some stuff have been nerfed and we lost some interesting rules here and there (the spirit flasks, i'm sad) but overall these are all nice units. We suffer from the new stuff being better for a cheaper price, but this is something that can change on the next general's handbook with a couple of points adjustments.

I only wish vanguard hunter would have been redeemer, there would have been tons of joke to do by making them TP all over the place counting as 15models on objectives...Etc.

they have everything: great rend, all the good keywords, a native bonus to save, 3" range. put them side to side with annihilators with great hammers and you have two very frightening units that your opponent will fear every day of the week.

Dracolines are my favorite models for the stormcasts and the new book is there so how do they play? Well without playtests we can't really tell but i believe that they are still viable and a great hammer unit, let's compare them to the flying drake because they share the same point values). making some stats they are pretty much always slitghly better than the drakes and their value increase the more you climb up in save: here's some numbers against etherial saves (so that we can see the damages against a 4+ unit under mystic shield AND all out defense... you get it). This isn't counting the MW outup they bring (you can pretty much add 4 or 5 damages for each columns here, drakes can shoot MW and eat one model after they fight so it's rpetty much tied up here). This said they are good, they can unbind a spell each enemy hero phase and have a little bonus of their own (+1 to wound is great, still worse than empower but it helps). the native reroll charge guarantee that you'll save some command points and even if they don't charge they still have the D3 damages on the mounts (and the lord arcanum on dracoline has a native buff for these as well without command points again). So what can we do with this? well i think we lost the possibility of bringing a big unit of 6 and stack bonuses on them, but is it worth it in a meta full of monsters and MSU? Having one or two small units is a possibility, they don't need much support to be efficient now. They can still fight a unit and bring some MW to delete a small wounded character (remember than they now roll 3 dices instead of 2 for each dracoline alive so it's 4 or 5 MW in addition after you attack). Their weakness is still the same, they are a bit fragile, highly vulnerable to saturation and high rend (like most 4+ unit) and they can't fly so screens are a problem with them so they need another form of support. In a build with shooting units (judicators by 10, some raptors by 6) or even the new chariots to clean up the protective stuff they will shine. i'd like to try something like this: Lord arcanum on dracoline, thundershock lord relictor with translocation knight incantor with azyrite halo 3 dracolines 4 concussors 2x5 battlelines (my love is on sequitors for aesthetic reasons but you can save yourself a couple of points with vindictors here) 10 judicators everblaze comet everything in a battle regiment which means you can have the first turn pretty easily, also stormkeep seems like the best option here so that our redeemers can count as 15 on objectives, to combine with that astral templar could be a nice stormhost as this list has no big monster. comet is here for the initial blast, ideally cast by the incantor far from dispell range, for early wound on key support heroes that the shooting or MW or the dracolines or dracoth can finish up. Judicators can drop wherever you need them to be, ideally you want to could make them shoot twice and finish support heroes early on (even on a 2+ etherial save they deal 4 wounds, maybe it's enough with the blast from the comet to delete a 6 wound sorcerer) and you can then shoot again in the shooting phase to deal some damages to finish a second one or start to rain death on screens that the dracoth can also finish up. The lord relictor seems an obvious choice on this list, we have two moblie threats but we need some mobility for the poor judicators who could get caught otherwise pretty easily and translocation is the best tool to babysit them and guarantee they'll get the best out of their positioning. here's the plan, i'll hope dracolines will do the work :).

thanks, i completely agree with this! Drakes are crazy good but we need more than that to play something fully rounded. When we see that they can be battleline the initial thought of everyone is to put a maximum of these on the army but i don't think it should be like this. One of the battleline could be drakes, the second one dracothian guards, and the 3rd+ some vindictors sprayed all arround to hit objectives here and there. Anyway this conversation is pretty exciting, i love the amount of opportunity we get from this battletome