Ganigumo
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Posts posted by Ganigumo
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8 hours ago, Pitloze said:
I haven't gotten my Gloomspite on the table yet. But is a massive low drop (with battalions) grot spam not even viable? Multiple ways to block LoS against shooting (sporefanatics, endless spells). -1 to shooting spell. Teleports to get your grots on objectives.
On paper it looks like an army that should be able to compete.
AFAIK most lists shy away from low drop since its way too tough to fit what you need in. Skulkmob is expensive (910 at the minimum) and doesn't really include any of the support you need. Moonclan skrap comes in at a minimum of like 1390 points. The big moonclan battalions just tend to eat up points way too quickly. It would be a completely different story if fanatics were cheaper or skulkmob was 1-3 fanatics.
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Top 5 is usually the metric I see around the community. I'm actually a bit surprised by just how much "controversy" that article has created. These results aren't really surprising to anyone who was paying attention, and are completely different to what it would have looked like 6 months ago, and that was very different to what it looks like 6 months before that. The meta is shifting over time, and that's a good thing.
Everyone knows Seraphon is bent, and shooting is strong, but as people get new options and start building to protect from shooting the meta will change again. Some armies definitely need some help (like gitz, but we have been getting these white dwarfs which are pretty helpful).
On topic for Gitz now, the takeaway is that we are going to have a very hard time competing in the current meta if we make it to the top tables. Grot lists will find their heroes disappearing very quickly, and it will be tough to get our magic off against Tzeentch and seraphon. Grot lists backed by Troggbosses might work to an extent, since the troggboss can be tough to take down, and squig lists can move fast enough to close the gaps very quickly, which can mitigate losses to shooting. I'm a bit curious as to how MSU grots would fare against some of them though. -
Has anyone played with a Frostlord on Thundertusk since the point drop/artifact changes? He seems like he might actually be a powerful anvil with Rimefrost hide (reduce rend characteristic of attacks against him by 1) and Plate of Perfect Protection (Ignore rend -1) coupled with the natural -1 to be hit.
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17 hours ago, RUNCMD said:
- Enlightened on foot as Battleline is TS is General, ohh boi, let me roll these D6's to see how many mortal wounds my bank account will suffer if that is the case! Hope there's a resale market for those discs!
You can kitbash them with a box of enlightened as a box of tzaangors. I managed to collect quite a few skyfires over time (bought a bunch before the multiple price increases) and I made 9 skyfires and used the spears/other bits with a box of tzaangors to make 9 enlightened on foot.
14 hours ago, Gwendar said:
I'm (of course) going to agree\disagree with Skyfires 😉. Yes, I do think they need a reduction.. but I don't think it's fair to compare their shooting to Flamers. They're just more of a "sniping" unit rather than "delete that entire block of 40" unit, and that's okay. For that cost you're getting something that can potentially snipe out 5-wound heroes at a 40" threat range, get +1 attack from the Agenda and clear 4+ save screens of 10-30 (depending on save) in CC.
With an Exalted, 12 Flamers outside of Conflag and not getting Aura of Mutability is 660 points and can put out ~21 damage on average. 6 Skyfires with +1 attack can do ~23 and a better potential to delete that little hero giving Stormfiends RR all hits and wounds and +1 damage.
I agree they have a different role than flamers, but the issue is that flamers outdamage skyfires, even if the flamers have 0 support, aren't taken in eternal conflagration, and are shooting a lone character, and the flamers are 40 points less, and still have a 27" threat range. In my experience their shooting is deceptively weak unless you're sitting on some 6s in your destiny dice pool.
In melee, with rerolls, 3 skyfires will usually put out 3-9 damage (6-13 with the agenda), 6 will put out 8-17 (14-25 with the agenda). By comparison 6 enlightened with the agenda would put out 13-26, or 29-45 if they get rerolls (which is a bit tougher to activate than the skyfires).Skyfires are in a weird place in between enlightened and flamers, being worse at shooting than flamers, and worse at combat than enlightened, and costing more than either.
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Scribe's true power is the 2+ spell that can't be unbound, and that is very valuable IMO, which is why I could see them going up a bit.
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3 hours ago, Kasper said:
What I've encountered:
- Warstomper's Hurled Body ability says "during the combat phase" and as such isnt limited to when he piles in and can be used after everyone have fought. Seems unintentional considering how the other abilities function (upon piling in).
- The ability Longshanks says you can only move over a terrain feature if it is less than 4" tall. What if other parts of the terrain feature is 2" tall (like a fence) but theres a building which is 4,5" tall - Is it possible to move over the 2" fence without a movement penalty from "climbing"?
- Stomper Tribes "Getting Stuck In" says it adds 1-2 damage depending on enemy unit size. It doesnt mention melee attacks, is it intended for it to affect the Chuck Rocks shooting attack on the Mancrushers?
I mean it is worth sending in questions, but I think some of those are very easily explained.
2) - Longshanks is essentially just a "nerfed" version of fly. Fly doesnt allow you to move out of combat except if you retreat. Longshanks should be no different as a result.
3) The warscroll ability specifically says when "a model" charges, hence it works for each model that charges. Gore-Gruntas in Ironjawz have a similar ability and it works that way.
5) Just above the artefacts for each tribe it says they are exclusive. For Taker Tribes it says "Kraken-Eater Mega-Gargant only", hence a Warstomper cant gain these artefacts in any way.
6) It specially says "they cannot use any other command abilities". There are no other command abiltiies except the general ones like "On the double" so it seems like a hard no tbh. Else I think the question should include realm command abilities.
I realize these are pretty explicit, but having it documented clearly somewhere would be helpful. Locking the artifacts to the subfactions AND the giant type is how the rules are written, but is completely different to how every battletome previously has handled it, and is a wierd decision in the first place. FAQ isn't just about things that are wrong/unclear, but also about things that seem wierd or could cause disagreements.
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@RUNCMD My ultimate fix to cult of the transient form would be to have a minor buff to tzaangors, and let you add the returned tzaangors to the kairic unit, as wierd as it would be ruleswise.
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@RUNCMD Agreed on the mortal/arcanite bit. After reading an article by Jervis in the most recent white dwarf they invited readers to suggest what they think points should be at. I didn't touch daemons much with my suggestions (although I regret not suggesting an increase for blue scribes).
My suggestions for Tzeentch were:
LoC down 30 (Changehost up 30 to compensate)
Alter-kin Coven: down 60 , this battalion's effect is super weak, the organization isn't good, and Cult of the Transient form is easily the weakest subfaction, which this battalion is aimed at. If the composition isn't changed to 1+ kairics and 1+ tzaangors at least let us take this in multiples.
Acolytes down 10: Tzeentch mortals are weak comparable to the daemon half, making the battleline a bit cheaper should helpTzaangors: Same cost, but unit size is 5-30. AFAIK Tzaangors are the only warscroll in its "position" (2 wound semi elite infantry) that can't be taken in 5s, and 15 seems like a sweet spot between keeping their +1 attack and the points cost.
Tzaangor Enlightened (on Foot): down 10, Battleline if Tzaangor General. The only reason to really take these guys is to lessen the cost of battalion requirements, this makes them more competitive and helps Tzaangor heavy builds reach battleline easier.
Tzaangor Skyfires: down 30-40? Shooting isn't costed at a premium anymore, and the damage output on these guys is pathetic in comparison to flamers, which are in the same book. Even arcanite builds would probably want to take flamers over skyfires.
Overall this would open up a lot of arcanite builds. Tzaangor Coven would get a ton of points to play with overall (thanks to having 3 battleline in the battalion and being able to take those Tzaangor units in 15s instead of 20s to be useful), and cult of the transient form would still be pretty mediocre, but could get a lot of artifacts and CP. Pyrofane would just save points on all of those kairics which would be helpful and they're probably the strongest arcanite build anyways. -
@Kasper
Off the top of my Head:- Can krakeneaters with the spellcasting artifact cast endless spells? Should they gain the wizard keyword?
- Does longshanks allow Mega Gargants to ignore the penalties for "retreating". Do they ignore the fact that they are in combat in the movement phase if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 10 or less.
- If run as a unit, can each mancrusher gargant trigger it's own Stomping charge, or does it only trigger once for the entire unit.
- can moving an objective with the Kraken Eater's 'Get Orf Me Land' ability change how much the objective is worth (for example in battle for the pass you could move your "home" objective out of your territory. Would it still be worth 4 points, or would it be worth 2)
- Are the artifacts exclusive to the different tribes?
- Can a warstomper general use Universal command abilities like 'On the double' or 'Forward to Victory'
Some of these are pretty clearly laid out in the book, but are a bit wierd and make me wonder if it was intentional.
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1 minute ago, Gwendar said:
True, but even with Fold Reality alone you have the potential to get back 5 wounds per model restored.. and yeah, get a 1 on BS to get even more. I can see the Banner getting changed (even though all other daemons do the same thing I believe) but Fold Reality would need to be completely re-written or just not be used on Horrors which... would then make it a non-include except in Hosts Arcanum or Conflag with big units of Screamers\Flamers.
A lot of lists aren't actually bringing healing or Multitudinous Host. I think a decent medium would be just make them split evenly.. the fact you have to buy 2 boxes of Blues\Brims per 1 box of Pink just sucks. That said, it would kill their some of their sales if they did that so who knows.. as it stands you want to wipe the whole unit if they have Fold Reality\-insert return slain models here- but putting them at only 30 wounds total vs 50 drastically lowers their ability to survive a lot of hammers out there while still being a reasonably good screen\wound block.I think the idea of a unit of with lots of wounds, and a low save is good, and horrors are one of the only true "anvils" in AOS (most other "anvils" either being bad, able to grind out combat effectively, or just beasts in combat (HGB). If there was an easy way to limit healing to only heal 1 wound (maybe splitting only works the first time the model is slain?) but the rules would get complex.
I agree its a pain you need 2 boxes of blues/brims for every box of pinks though -
3 minutes ago, Gwendar said:
I'll be honest, I would much prefer that and I wouldn't feel like I would need to bring along as many. I'd rather see them split into a single Blue than 2 but I don't know if they'll change that. Right now, the fact that I have to buy\build\paint\transport 2-3x the amount of Blues to Pinks is just dumb. What you're proposing would be a bit closer to how they used to work anyway... just make each dead Pink worth 2 and Blues worth 1.. maybe Brims worth nothing?
I agree though, I think Pinks are what need to be looked at. 220 points for 50+ wounds is nuts.. a lot of the strongest punchy units in the game are still only putting put 35-45 damage on average with some cases easily clearing 50-70 damage. HD is strong, but Conflag and lately Hosts Arcanum have been stronger.. but Conflag is just good because Flamers are good while Pinks are just incredible in general. Not being able to retreat is a big deal, but so many units are already losing out on a whole turn even if they could retreat since they can't shoot\charge barring a few exceptions.. the most they can do is run onto an objective to regain control.I haven't played with them, so I might be wrong, but I think pinks are mostly fine, its the interaction with healing that puts them WAY over the edge, although I'm not sure what the solution to that is, other than not being able to heal them at all, the fact that there is potential healing on the warscroll, and we can forcibly trigger it with destiny dice certainly doesn't help.
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5 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:
The objective kicking is probably my favorite part about the SoB at the moment. It's just a simple but very unique mechanic, and it's pretty funny to imagine you looking at your opponent and going "Actually we are going to play bloodbowl now." As a Gloomspite player I am still confident that I could play the objectives with my hordes of Grots, but I can see low model count armies like Idoneth Eels having trouble fighting for objectives against SoB. Maybe this will indirectly shift the meta towards people playing the objective instead of trying to delete as much of the enemy's units in 1-2 turns.
It's kind of funny that the army people expected to be a wrecking ball of destruction is actually good at holding and manipulating objectives.
BoC already compete this way, and some players do pretty well at it. A few cheap hammers(30 bestigor are 300 points), lots of wounds, tons of chaff to control the board, ungor raiders for pregame moves, and they're pretty quick with bray shaman extra movement and run & charge, plus the ambushing. The army is about choosing when to die, and dying slowly while holding objectives. To me SoB looks like a harder hitting version, but with much less movement and board control.
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49 minutes ago, Gutlord said:
Just for a bit of fun i did a 1 on 1 against Gotrek with all 3 Megas (seperatly of course, and i let Gotrek fight first every time) the results.......
Kraken Eater....Draw (He fell on Gotrek and killed him at the end of the fight)
Warstompa.....Gotrek won with 2 wounds remaining (obviously his club was useless against a single non monster model)
Gate Breaker.....Absolutly battered Gotrek with 20 wounds remaining ( that flail attack is so powerful, imagine it buffed up with Gordrakks voice of Gork giving him +1 to hit)
I know its the roll of the dice but i do feel like these guys are well worth thier points value....i didnt even have any mercenary or General abilities on them.
Are you sure you got the rules right? Gotrek has a 3++ and reduces all damage to him TO 1, which means you'll need to make ~20-24 wounds get past his armor save to kill him
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1 minute ago, Tizianolol said:
Guys i played a game vs my friend today. When i split like 3 pinks into 6 blues, blues are part of the same unit. After i habe to remove all pinks first? Or i can decide to remove blues first ? So i can keep pink bearer alive?
The blues are part of the same unit, but you must remove all the pinks before you can remove any blues, and remove all the blues before you can remove any brimstones, so save that standard bearer for the last pink you remove.
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3 minutes ago, robotnik_taco said:
Soooo, maybe I'm just being impatient, but is anyone else who preordered through gw still waiting for their stuff to even ship? Yes I know covid troubles, and yes I should have gone third party, just want my big guys.
In my experience GW doesn't ship things out on weekends, and if you order it to your address they won't ship until the release date (or more specifically the monday after, since they don't ship things out on saturdays).
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Something I noticed while reading through the book is that Stomper tribe Generals can't use the command abilities to give themselves rerolls of 1 to hit or save. It states that stomper tribe generals are ONLY ALLOWED to use the command abilities listed in the allegiance page, and those only affect mancrushers.
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1 hour ago, Elevenist said:
How does this look? It's a hosts arcanum list.
++ Meeting Engagement - Main Body (Chaos - Tzeentch) [1,500pts] +++ Leader +
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc [130pts]: Ritual Dagger
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc [130pts]: Ritual Dagger
Lord of Change [380pts]: General, Rod of Sorcery
+ Battleline +
Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers
Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers
Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers
+ Other +
Screamers of Tzeentch [80pts]: 3 Screamers
Screamers of Tzeentch [80pts]: 3 Screamers
+ Allegiance +
Allegiance: Tzeentch
+ Malign Sorcery +
Endless Spell: Burning Sigil of Tzeentch [40pts]
++ Total: [1,500pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe
I'm not super familiar with what 1500 point games look like, but it feels like your damage is a bit low? Screamers are battleline in hosts arcanum, so maybe swap out one of the units of horrors for something else that hits hard like flamers or Tzaangor enlightened? You'll have a few points left over for another endless spell or a command point too.
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40 minutes ago, TheArborealWalrus said:
I've got a question for my fellow beast lords, so the new sons of Behemat army are cool and all but there are 2 rules that I feel might cause us problems. 1: longshanks - they get to walk over anything less than a shaggoth as though it wasn't there. Not a super big deal, just keep models close enough to prevent their big base from fitting. 2: Mightier makes rightier - they count as lots of models (anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on the details). Between these 2 it will be extremely difficult to keep hold of our objectives, even with advanced screening tactics. So here's my question.
How do we take an objective back from a mega gargant? They count as minimum 20 models and they just have to touch the 6 inch zone. Especially when it's possible for a kraken eater to be at -2 to hit (but more likely -1). Never mind that krakens can move the objectives. It just feels like a tough match up for us. We both live and die by our objective control. Thoughts?
Cheers for any musings,
For Morghur!
Kraken eaters only get to -2 against monsters, and if they have the taker tribe you can be a bit more aggressive with your big units.
Sons have trouble with screens in general, and 35 wounds on a 4+ isn't super durable so if you can hit them hard with a big unit of bestigors or something they should go down.
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1 minute ago, AronQ_ said:
So, can I pick an artefact of Gavespawn and take a trait from hedonite faction? Or I need take similar trait and artefact from one subfaction?
And what about this- if I have 20 bestigors and one model of the unit have 6 to hit, this model will have 3 extra hits?
You can't take the beasts of chaos artifacts in hedonites allegiance, but the hedonite artifacts are tied to hedonite subfactions, and not keywords, so they can be taken by beastmen units. By comparison tge artifacts in Tzeentch allegiance are tied to keywords that prevent beasts of chaos units from using them.
Also yes, but every model in the unit of 20+ bestigors would get 3 extra hits on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit. (Mathematically this equates to a +3 to hit)
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21 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:
Agree the ABC is important. I do think though your downplaying megas slightly equating them to a 35 wound unit. A stomper takes 34 wounds it can still get 10 attacks with its club and have full damage output. A breaker with +2 attacks trait takes 34 wounds it’s still swinging 7 flail attacks. Also they obviously keep their impact hits till death. They have very little loss of damage output all the way to death so if your opponent can’t one shot them it spells trouble and 35 wounds on 4+ possibly with buffs isn’t super easy to one shot (obviously yes there are a number of insane damage output units that can but not universally).
35 wounds in 1 unit isn't actually a good thing for the most part.
In an ideal game scenario its better to use MSU so your opponent is forced to split fire and possibly overkill units (wasted damage). If you put 35 wounds in a single spot it makes target priority much easier.
This is the reason the game provides benefits for having big units like horde discounts, turn priority, combat activations,unit size bonuses, and single target buffs.
Sons of Behemat(and monsters generally) don't really get the benefits of these things, while still suffering the drawbacks of putting all your points into one unit.
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28 minutes ago, Scythian said:
The answer is a double charge with a mega and 3 mancrushers. The impact hits alone will probably kill the stinkers and then you pile in for the Smackdown, lol.
Proper screen placement in this scenario would also be to have the sallies 6" behind the skinks, where a pile in move would still prevent you from hitting them.
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2 hours ago, Scythian said:
I think the detractors of this army are truly misunderstanding what this army is and what it can and will be. Like many other misunderstood armies, people are expecting this army to be a game changer, it is not. Much like Disciples of Tzeentch, people automatically thought that it was going to be a magic heavy army when in fact, the meta was shooting. Sons of Behemat create the same fool's gold effect. A player might be tempted to play the “camp on the objectives” game with the giant’s high wounds but this is a grave mistake. This is an army that should always be charging. The meta is the charge phase. Charging and attacking. They are not designed to be a “stand on and camp” army. Think logically about it. The Mega’s are just a 35 man unit with 4+ armor and limited attacks when you actually erase the model's stature and truly read the warscroll. Hardly what I would call a game changer, but rather just a larger than average horde unit by only 5 wounds. As for the individual Mega Gargant types, just understand that while the Krakeneater and Gatebreaker have tactical options, do not solely rely on them to be the game changer abilities you may think they are. Now, get out there and remember your ABC’s..........Always Be Charging!
it feels like against a good list and opponent it would be very hard to dictate charges in our favor. 12" move isn't fast, but its not slow either, and when facing a properly placed screen it feels like there is no good answer, we either back off, stay put, or charge the screen and all 3 are losing propositions.
What I'm getting at is what is our answer to 10 skinks sitting in front of a unit of salamanders (or some similar situation with a different faction)
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10 hours ago, AronQ_ said:
Hello everyone! What can you say about Depraved Drove? I wanna start army of beastmen of Slaanesh. Can you share any tips and tactics please. And I have question could I use both artefacts or traits from hedonites and from greatfrays(Allherd, Gavespawn and Darkwalkers?) or not? And look what an awesome miniature of Slaangor in Underworlds Beastgrave!
Depraved drove is great in slaanesh allegiance. I'm pretty sure you lose out on lore spells for your shamans, but the artifacts are tied to the subfactions if I recall correctly, so they can be taken by beastmen.
Slaanesh have an allegiance ability that lets all units score 1 extra hit on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit, or 3 extra hits if the unit has 20 or more models. This rule is super strong on big units of ungor and bestigor, but still useful on everything in the army.
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2 hours ago, Nezzhil said:
Gatebreaker was very easy to assemble, but Kraken-Eater was a pain designed by Slaanesh. By Gorkamorka, I had a few moments when I only want to cry.
Yeah that octopus arm and the sack were pretty nasty.
Not looking forward to painting it either, the Hag's sacl has given me ptsd...
I did notice while building that the hands were very similar in size/shape to dankhold troggoth hands. So there might be some conversion opportunities there
AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion
in Chaos
Posted · Edited by Ganigumo
I might have to steal this for my Phantasmagoria of FateTzeentch list, nice find!