Beer & Pretzels Gamer
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Posts posted by Beer & Pretzels Gamer
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Think @Landohammer hits on a key point that there is a very fat middle for AoS and if you’re primarily playing games within that fat middle (as I am fortunate to be) things are probably pretty okay. But there is a growing list of factions, or at least specific sub-factions within certain factions, that simply “do not play nicely” with any of those fat middle factions. For that matter I’m not terribly sure how well they play against each other.
My personal philosophy for battletomes is that they should be built so that the average player can construct a list more than capable of going 3-2 but which a skilled player, willing to dedicate the time and energy to really learn the army and how it interacts with the rest of the game (e.g. other factions and the battleplans) can pilot to 5-0 on top tables. Having now read over half the tomes though I think it is fair to say while certain writers are consistent with this approach (personally I’d highlight both Mawtribes and Warclans as recent examples) I think as 2.0 has matured there has been a tendency for certain writers to reach for the “novel”. Sometimes this doesn’t amount to much from a competitive perspective for good or bad (boy oh boy was Sons a missed opportunity in this regard...) but other times this “novelty” leads to lists that push the average player up to 5-0 base case scenario with losses either coming from their playing either a player with a similar tier list, user error, or a truly skilled player on the other side of the table.
I’m certain there are those who like tomes coming with a clear cut 5-0 contender. To each their own. But I think all too often when the writers create one it catalyze a lot of claims of negative player experience.
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There have been a lot of threads lately debating issues of balance, negative player experience, “broken” shooting or magic. These discussions often see tournament data used on both sides. As @Neil Arthur Hotep frequently acknowledges tournament data isn’t ideal but often is what we have to use since casual games aren’t clearly and cleanly recorded anywhere. But it did make me very curious to see if we could get a little more info on what casual metas actually look like.
So... what does your personal gaming meta look like? What factions are you playing and what factions are most frequently across the table? And how do you feel about your own personal meta?
Currently in Zoom League we are playing a lot of Mawtribes (both BCR and Gutbusters), Warclans (all three options have shown up)and FEC (Blisterskin primarily but some Gristelgore too). Fyreslayers have entered the fray. Nurgle (mortals & daemons) is about to make a return. Khorne (daemons) got a recent look in. Beasts of Chaos have made appearances. Even Tzeentch (mortals) & Stormcast Eternals showed up for a tournament. Troggoths are debuting as an automata component but may see some play in future. The Sons of Behemat are expected to arrive in Zoom League this Summer.
Prior to COVID but since retired we had Legion of Azgorh, Sylvaneth and the Moonclan/Spiderfang Gloomspite Gitz.
When in person games start back up I would expect my meta to expand to include a few games a year against IDK, Seraphon and Cities and I’d expect to finally put my Tzeentch daemons on the table.
Overall my meta has proven very enjoyable. There are factions that struggle a little more for wins than others but nothing has proven futile. Similarly some factions have done better than average but nothing dominates for too long.
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27 minutes ago, Honk said:
The infernal is the general, making the flayers battleline... and makes the infernal another wizard with the „dark acolyte“ trait, one more casting can be great.
Black hunger spell, an extra FEC spell and somebody to recast the chalice.
my go to chief in charge especially for feast day
Right. Always focus on the bolded sub-faction and just so used to Archie as General. Have a narrative tournament in Zoom League that I’ve already submitted a non-FEC list to but will have to go back and try that,
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Wanted to share this fun kitbash I did to better distinguish between the two Savage Big Bosses being run in Zoom League at moment. His Boss Chompa made from 10 Ardboyz weapons. In narrative they are the weapons of Ardboyz in a Big Waaagh!!! that the Savage Big Boss did not feel were charging with sufficient zeal. When they tried to argue with him he started hacking them down until they were “properly motivated”. The Megaboss saw this and wanted to reward such “managerial dedication” so had the slain Ardboyz weapons reforged into a suitable weapon.
He’s now running a much feared Teef Rukk.
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6 minutes ago, Honk said:
The speed and CA of Blisterskin is nice, I ran similar lists as feast day with the infernal as general and the wizard trait... not as mobile but pretty devastating with the free frenzy
I have always wanted to run Feast Day but have been out off by only having Crypt Ghouls as battle line. I’ve had luck using one big blob plus Chalice but worry three units if Crypt Ghouls too restrictive for the lists I typically favor.
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On 3/10/2021 at 5:09 PM, Evil Bob said:
Would you be willing to share it and have a chat?
My problems with most Blisterskin lists is scraping together enough functional hammers. In the back of my mind I look at Flayers (which were my favorite before the current book dropped) and knowing their capacities plus costs compared to other books it left me a bit depressed. With power creep I’m pushed towards more extremes. So anyone with success using multi-AARs and Flayers has my attention.
Sorry for delay but happy to discuss this fun army.
Looking back through my lists I actually played two variations on a Blisterskin plus Deadwatch battalion. One was double Archregent and one was Archregent plus on foot Abhorrant Ghoul King (in both cases trying to leverage the free summons from Charnel Throne to preserve CP for extra pile-in).
The commonality to both lists is a Deadwatch Battalion of 6x/6x/3x Crypt Flayers and Crypt Infernal Courtier and an Abhorrant Ghoul King on Royal Terrorgheist. The AGKonRT in these lists honestly was performing mainly as a Distraction Carnifex. Typically it would draw out my opponent’s best units in an attempt to one shot it, positioning me to get a full unit of Crypt Flayers into them. When my opponent didn’t take the bait great, got to go fishing for 6s and those big mouth MWs. The real key though was making sure I could get all 6 of my Crypt Flayers into Combat when they did attack and the maximizing the Muster abilities of the Crypt Infernal Courtier and Varghulf(s) I would summon to keep them in combat. Finally using the movement (including using the Blisterskin CA and/or the AGKonRT summons to steal an objective with a 3x unit) in the list to outmaneuver an opponent in late rounds usually proved key.
In the double Archie list that pretty much uses up the points. Either summon two Varghulfs to make sure I’m rolling maximum dice (and occasionally killing a 5W Hero at a key moment) when I Muster or occasionally drop a big block of Ghouls on an objective. This list did sometimes struggle for CP so tried the option where I swapped out one Archie for a basic Abhorrant with the Balewind Vortex and an extra CP. Still a free summons with Charnel Throne, albeit limited to 10x Ghouls but again, can be useful on an objective (and benefit from some of the Muster dice I can’t use on Flayers) but the extra CP could be huge and the Balewind’s extended range increased probability of my getting the Archregent’s spell on who I wanted even if I now only had a single caster.
Fully acknowledge wasn’t playing top tier tournament lists but gave me some tools against lists with multiple Frostlords on Stonehorn or double Mawcrusha Ironjawz lists.
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1 hour ago, Evil Bob said:
With regards to a plan for Command Points most armies only really need to save for inspirational presence and compare it against whatever their most favored alternative command ability is at hand. Juggling inspirational presence and frenzy is bad enough. Not going to lie I have used summons with GKoTG when those CPs would have been better spent feed frenzy. The basic idea is to check one’s goals against their enthusiasm
This is why, when running a very similar Blisterskin list recently I dropped the 2nd AGKonRT for a 2nd Archregent and some extras, the free summons with the Charnel Throne was worthwhile in freeing up an extra Feeding Frenzy, gave even more flexibility as to what I summoned, and better chance of having a key unit i; range for Archie’s spell.
That said I appreciate the desire for the full flap flap list...
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24 minutes ago, Sutek said:
Keep the regent. He's worth it for his summoning and his spell. Also you can get another six flayers from the summoning of the two GKOTGs,
Archie definitely worth it in tournament. Spot on re: the flexibility of his summoning as in some matches a Varghulf to muster one of those Crypt Flayer blocks (Courtier can’t be everywhere) while still doing some damage will be key. In others dropping a big block of Crypt Ghouls on an objective can swing a match. But I guess that’s the question. Do you have the summoning options to fully take advantage of Archie?
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Shoot the Heroes is so 2020.
In 2021 we eat them!
Gutbusters and Swifthawk Agents were the first two armies I bought when I made a second try at Age of Sigmar (first failed attempt had been in WFB days with the dwarves & goblins starter set). Especially since Swifthawk Agents got squatted that means I’ve probably played more Ogors than anything else. Thus while the list was very different from one I would’ve built when the tables flipped and it came time to pilot the Mawtribes list against my Fyreslayers list I felt reasonably comfortable.
I was actually okay when I lost the first roll as once I knew he would finish his set up first and choose priority I knew I could hold back on most of my deployment to see what he would do. I did have to put the Mawpot out early, a clear tell in a list with a Butcher that he responded to by dropping the 20x Hearthguard Berzerkers across the table from it in the West. That made it pretty clear that my best chances lay in the East and hopefully the center objective in Focal Points.
So I hoped that the Mawpot’s frontage and a screen of 2x Mournfang on either side would be enough to keep the Butcher alive for one turn when his 7nits would be in range of Voracious Maw. The rest of my army went East with a unit of Ironguts not too far off center to go for the center objective if possible but all three Stonehorns (of the Frostlord, Huskard and Beastriders varieties) in front of the Eastern objective in my territory. (The Icebrow Hunter and 2x Frost Sabres started in Ambush as per usual).
Sure enough Fyreslayers went first and used the extra R1 movement from Vostarg plus the Vostarg run& charge command trait to get across the board in the West. The width of the Mawpot and the need to keep the units in a 12” bubble meant they could only go after one side of the Mournfang Pack, and at that only get a few models into combat. (Though maybe some should’ve started trying to climb the Mawpot instead of going around it? Maybe I’ll try that approach next time...) That and a few good Save Rolls meant that it took both pile ins to kill the Mournfang, preserving the Butcher.
The Runesmiter on foot had come out of the magmic tunnel in the center of my backfield line but the unit of 10x Vulkites that came with them failed their 9” charge and the CP reroll, leaving my three Stonehorns free to move in my turn.
In my turn, was able to get Voracious Maw off and boy oh boy was it hungry!!! For those of you not familiar with arguably my favorite spell it does d3 Damage when it goes off, but then you roll d6 again and on a 4+ it is still hungry and takes another bite (for another d3). Rinse and repeat until you fail a 4+ and it is satisfied or the target unit dies and the Maw is satisfied. In this tournament we’d seen a lot of nibbling (1 bite) some snacking (2 bites) and even a couple light meals (3 bites). In this match the Voracious Maw tucked in for a full meal going off four times.
So, as tempting as it was to go after the Hearthguard Berzerkers and as risky as it was with the Sworn Protector Auric Hearthguard there to eat wounds for the Battlesmith with 4 attempts enough Damage had gone through and stuck on him to kill the Battlesmith. The Runefather was still there for the 4++ and Lords of the Lodge but was farther East and in combat with the Ironguts so even after they decided not to defend the icon it was going to be tough for the HBs to stay in the bubble if they went any farther West.
Of course that was what I wanted so after the Hero Phase I Promptly ran the remaining Mournfang and Butcher Westward. Figured they couldn’t ignore the Butcher after that (though the chances of it going off like that again were low...) so hoped to draw the HBs even further West. Meanwhile my Stonehorns were able to rampage in the East and Center wracking up points.
When my opponent took the Butcher Bait in their turn they came out of the buff bubbles and thus were both weaker and, with only 4” moves left if they wanted to Charge, I could ignore them for a turn and mop up the rest of the issues in the West leaving us at the end of R2 essentially reversed with the Mawtribes now in control of the North and the Fyreslayers in the South. Movement limitations meant I could set up the Charges I needed much easier than my opponent so R3 was mainly about me setting up the pins and knocking them down.
By end of R3 Mawtribes had an insurmountable VP lead and the match was conceded.
Again, learned a lot about the list and it’s strengths and limitations by playing against it three times. It takes a lot of discipline to maintain those buff bubbles and it is difficult against armies with magic or shooting with good range to protect the key support Heroes. But you do have some tools to do it if you stay patient in R1&2.
The obvious risk to patience even when it does work out is by R3+ your foot units aren’t going to be going very far unless your opponent is obliging with the charge opportunities. That’s why in this list I think part of the patience is holding back the Magmadroths in the first two rounds. Yes, their range makes them good for reaching out early but they just aren’t that resilient so if you really want them to shine you need to hold them for later rounds when maybe you can pick your battles a little better after hopefully your anvil has broken a few of your opponent’s hammers... With the right Ur-gold Rune they might even do some real damage if they get to hit first.
That said, as much as I want to like Magmadroths having two attacks very limited against small units (the fyrestream missile attack and the lashing tail) just hamstrings these units). Would love to see Magmadroths get an IDk-esque upgrade in a future BR tome...
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Generally there’s enough armies in rotation that this doesn’t come up except at tournaments for me. There of course I’m hoping to play armies I’ve never played before but accept that it won’t always work out.
On general principle though I both appreciate seeing how another opponent plays my army and trying to solve the problems my army creates. Almost always learn something.
Appreciate the lore perspective as I’m a big narrative gamer but in AoS think it is easier.
And agree wording of poll a bit awkward (know how hard this can be to write so just a soft constructive critique here) so of course I wouldn’t want a majority of matches to be mirrors (if that was what was implied). Variety is a vital spice to a tasty game.
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This is kind of an in memoriam as I’m just waiting for my last three LoA units to sell.
But I did want to pay tribute to what was a very fun army while it lasted and a great army to teach people to play AoS with.
We ran an Execution Herd centric list, backed up by Magma Cannon, Daemonsmiths & K’daii. At one point we’d tried the whole Hashut with different artillery pieces but really only the Magma Cannon was worth the points. Kept the Iron Daemon around to haul the Magma Cannon sometimes but where it really came into its own was when we started using ally points to bring in Khorne units, typically either Skarbrand or Mazarall, which added another piece your opponent had to think about. But with the Execution Herd’s mobility, the K’daii’s utility and some artillery back up it was a lot of fun on the table.
And it had just enough of each element of the game to be almost ideal for teaching new players. Blackshard Armor also typically meant pieces hung around for long enough for them to get a feel for the game. Didn’t wrack up a ton of wins but came through enough that it kept people interested. Still disappointed the player in our group who was going to bring it to the local tournament had to drop out due to work and thus it never got outside our circle.
Highlight was a two game narrative against Khorne last year.
With it being discontinued though and trying to keep my AoS moves “budget neutral” as sad as I am to see it go it pays for my Sons of Behemat which hopefully will be just as much fun.
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2 hours ago, HollowHills said:
understand ads are needed
Understand ad based business model too but thought on of the benefits of subscription was their absence. Yet I’m seeing them as well.
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1 hour ago, Doko said:
You used the alegiance with bonespliter to ignore the special save? With that the game is heavy favored for the orcs,without that is for dwarfs
In building their Bonesplitterz list opponent had chosen to go without a sub-faction. Given strength of Drakkfoot relative to both Mawtribes and Fyreslayers personally think this was a mistake and significant contributing factor to list having gone 0-4 until this match up as the generic CT not worth it and unlimited Artefact choice obviously less important when you’re choosing three...
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The Fyreslayers list I had created was 4-0 in the tournament. The list I was piloting against it was 0-4.
But I had a theory...
And I truly believed that this was my best chance in the tournament at “Ultimate Bragging Right” where I beat my opponent with my list and then flipped the tables and beat him with his own. Key to this belief was the Battleplan. Scorched Earth starts with 8 objectives which is a lot to cover with Fyreslayers since they work best when they’re clustered together. In the first go round I’d pulled out the victory but it had been a close call as I’d let myself get stretched to where my key Hearthguard Berzerkers had gotten out of the buff bubbles and exposed to counter attack.
As I read through the war scrolls, battalion buffs, faction abilities, etc. I was convinced that the Bonesplitterz had the ability to stretch that Fyreslayers list even further, probably to a breaking point.
But it didn’t start off well. Both lists were six drops so the first roll would determine who got to pick who went first. That meant I’d have to make my pre-R1 Bonesplitterz 5” moves before I knew whether I was going first or second. I caught a break though when my opponent placed the Hearthguard Berzerkers down early so that I knew which flank (East in this case) I would be chaffing with Arrowboys and Savage Orruks deep in the backfield and which side I would be overloading with the Rogue Idol and all my WIZARDS to hopefully capture and burn objectives in my opponents backfield. Sticking the Savage Big Stabbas, viewed by my opponent as key to the list they’d built, in the middle was the best distraction I could come up with as my best hope was to throw them into the Runefather in Magmadroth for their bonus against MONSTERS but I’d accepted that they might just be a speed bump, delaying the HBs another turn before they could get into my territory and start burning my objectives.
Having trouble uploading photos for the moment but to summarize in the East, spread across two objectives I had the 10x Savage Orruks. Behind them I had the Savage Big Boss from their battalion then the 20x Arrowboys. Across from them was the 20x HBs & Battlesmith, flanked by the Runefather on Magmadroth beside the Forge with the Runemaster behind the Forge. In the middle I had the other 10x Arrowboys screening the 2 units of 2x Savage Big Stabbas and the Battalion Big Boss. All the way over to the West I had the Rogue Idol and my three Wizards. Across from them was the Runesmiter on Magmadroth and both the 20x Vulkites w/shields & warpicks and behind them the 10x Vulkites with paired axes. My opponent had put the 5x Auric Hearthguard in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on Foot.
So my opponent had already stretched their initial deployment more than I had. I used my pre-moves to move up the Rogue Idol and Wizards and to reposition the 10x Arrowboys to backfill the gap they’d opened a little bit. When my opponent had me go first I buffed up the Rogue Idol and charged him and the Maniak Weirdnob forward into the Runesmiter on Magmadroth and the 20x Vulkites. The Rogue Idol largely focused on the Vulkites and did enough damage to kill 11. I’d come in at the far edge to limit Berzerk Fury as much as possible and between that and some great Saves Pebbles was still feeling good at end of R1.1 even if not much damage had yet been done to the Magmadroth. Was surprised when my opponent didn’t CP it but the rest fled from battle shock.
On their turn my opponent used the Vostarg move buffs to get the HBs and Battlesmith to the middle of the table. My Savage Big Stabbas had failed their charge into the Runefather on Magmadroth so they were able to advance a little farther with a charge but sustaining the 12” bubble limited them just enough on the first pile in. In the West they popped the Grand Ritual and charged the 10x Vulkites into Pebbles hoping the Saves would preserve them. The West fought to a standstill and my Savage Big Stabbas fell but at least took some HBs with them.
I got lucky and won initiative despite a low roll. (This somehow is very rare for me. I once went to whole games without winning an initiative, and have even lost ties on 6s so was shocked but grateful to have this one go my way. ) I was able to clear out the West and burn one of the objectives but in the East all I did was plink away at the HBs (the 100+ shots with the battalion ability to shoot in Hero Phase only translated into a few wounds but I was happy for what I could get) and a little repositioning of the Savage Orruks meant that the HBs should only be able to charge and pile into them, preventing a follow through pile in fro Lords of the Lodge into the Arrowboys.
My opponent would get into the Savage Orruks and bring the units out of the tunnel in the East as well to charge the other objective in that half, but I would finish with enough models around each to just barely hold onto the objective for one more turn. And I’d somehow manage to again win the initiative. The Rogue Idol would clear the Runefather off the other Western objective but a flying Maniak Weirdbob only managed to race across the battlefield to get into a pillow fight in the East with the Runemaster.
By their turn my opponent was looking at a slightly better than half strength unit of HBs (11x) that would clear off the remaining Arrowboys and take one of the Eastern objectives. The Battlesmith was hanging on with 1 Wound left, vulnerable to any shooting or magic in my turn. In their own territory all they had left was the Runemaster and the Runesmiter on foot. I had the mobility and power to take the rest of the objectives in their territory, and with the HERO bonus. They had the power but likely lacked the mobility, especially if I was able to move the remaining Arrowboys out of Charge range, and might not have any HEROES left to garner bonus points. In other words the VP gap I had already opened was more likely to expand in R4&5 than contract.
With the concession “Ultimate Bragging Rights” were secure.
Even having cracked my own list though I still like it a lot. There is a bit of an anvil without a hammer issue to using a single block of 20x HBs instead of two. Positioned well though and you can try and force your opponent to break their hammer against it. If your opponent declines then you’ve got to be a lot more creative. If the Auric Hearthguard was larger could definitely see the virtue of putting them in the tunnel and popping them up to shoot a key unit (in this game they did snipe one of my Savage Big Bosses even at lower strength) but I think the Vulkites remain the better choice. I can definitely see the appeal though of lists that use gyrocopter allies instead.
And this type of problem solving is appealing across the table as well. As seen in another post above I really enjoyed trying to crack this list with Khorne Daemons. Think I had the right idea but was too far behind on VP by the time I’d taken out the Battlesmith to take advantage. Here a lot of patience and a very different play style that I normally use secured me the victory. Fully acknowledge this isn’t the double 20x HB Hermdar list that is the actual source of most complaints but here’s at least some counter evidence to the argument that Fyreslayers are no fun to play against. Two games in a row I’ve had a blast and can’t wait to try again with Mawtribes next week!
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Been looking at some of the other smaller factions I have experience with, and while I acknowledge my bias for Cavalry, it really does stick out as the most obvious "gap" in the line.
Clearly Fyreslayers aren't lacking for HERO options, having as many if not more options than FEC, Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz and filling most of the same roles (if you're willing to switch Prayers for Spells, and arguably as there is no unbind option against ours so...) absent FEC's summoning and that is less a line size issue than a faction mechanics issue.
Looking at MONSTERS certainly we can debate how well ye olde Magmadroth stacks up to these comparison but we have it (and three rider options...) and thus we check the same box that FEC checks with their Royal Terrorgheist & Zombie Dragons, Ironjawz checks with their Mawkrusha and Bonesplitterz used to check with the Rogue Idol.
Similarly looking for a (relatively) Big Blob Battleline we can throw 30x Vulkite Berzerkers out there to match up against FEC's Crypt Ghouls, Ironjawz's Ardboyz or Bonesplitterz Savage Orruks.
Looking for something a little more hard hitting and we can put out our Hearthguard Berzerkers up against the best of any faction, nonetheless FEC's Crypt Horrors, Ironjawz's Brutes or Bonesplitterz... well actually Bonesplitterz don't have this tool really being an even smaller faction than Fyreslayers until they got lumped in with the bigger armored cousins.
But them we turn to the unit that rounds out these other factions and for Fyreslayers we get Auric Hearthguard. Again, I'm on record of loving the look of the our dragon axe flamethrowers. And it is nice to get some shooting in that is NOT dependent on the # of models in the target unit (looking at you side eye Mr. Magmadroth) or what I can only figure is dice rolling exercise for your wrist because nothing ever seems to come of it (looking at you throwing axes...). Yet, looking at these other armies it is clear that they just aren't what Fyreslayers is missing.
Rounding out FEC we see the Crypt Flayers, which while not mounted have all the movement of Cav. Ironjawz get Goregruntas. Bonesplitterz get their Boars. So yeah, even when looking at other very small unit option factions this gap is an obvious start point for GW if they're looking to fill in the line.
Again, not exactly revelatory but of course it gets to the point that even though say, Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz had most of the tools they were still combined to have even more tools. I didn't put Gutbusters or Beastclaw Raiders in the above but there is an example of armies that were missing a few tools but gained them by getting together. So while it would be great if GW just, you know, filled in the line with some Cav and maybe a couple other variations if we're being greedy, I lean into believing Duardin will go the way of Orruks and Ogors and see a family reunion.
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7 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:
but yes that’s true, 2000pts isn’t the full battle but rather a small section of the battlefield. However, the problem I see with trying to use that to justify things like spamming Hearthguard is why do we even need Battleline at all? In this particular area of the battlefield maybe the Battleline have all died or moved to help out in a different area
ultimately we need more units to choose from. Lack of options is probably the only reason gw allow Hearthguard spam and multiple Runefathers, the army is too small to restrict choices
Again, all for more unit choice (particularly if Cavalry!).
Think there are good questions re:battle line. Personally prefer the Ironjawz everything is battleline except Heroes for smaller factions to you get one and then “Battleline if”. Personally don’t spam HBs at moment, just run on block in Lords of Lodge, and wish it was easier to fit in more AH because I do love the idea of a dragon axe flamethrower combo, but as they can’t be battleline at same time as HBs. So my ideal likely something like 20x HBs w/Flamestrike (I do like the look of those over the regular axes), 20x VBs w/pick axe and shield, and 10x/5x AHs. But that build not valid undercurrent restrictions.
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9 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:
I understand your concern about Vulkites being the only Battleline, but sadly I believe Hearthguard need to lose Battleline If status to discourage people from spamming them, they aren’t supposed to be the core of your army
Again, still relatively new to Fyreslayers but do think that making “Battleline If” tied to Lodge not General would help if this is really an issue. To my understanding the big external complaint around Hearthguard Berzerkers is running two blocks of 20x in Hermdar w/a Lords of the Lodge Battalion. If Hermdar was NOT the Lodge that allowed HBs to be battleline my guess is that would drop to a single unit of 20x for the battalion.
That said your argument seems to be more fluff oriented than player experience oriented? I’m primarily (at least in non-COVID-19 times) a narrative player so I am empathetic to the arguments I’ve seen here and in other threads (such as AoS 3.0) for lore based limitations. That said I’m overall lukewarm to the idea as I don’t struggle all that much to accommodate any non-HERO based ones. Simply put I make no personal assumption that a particular point level equates to the “platonic ideal” of a faction’s army size. In fact much of the lore I do read suggests that an Alfrostun for Mawtribes would be much larger than 2K points would allow. In most cases the Super Battalions best reflect what the true army size would be.
So as regards any 2k list weighted more strongly to HBs (or if it so happened AHs) my mind has no problem adjusting to this is not some fresh Fyrd that just marched out of the Magmahold in full force but one that has been whittled down by combat. Makes perfect sense that the stronger units such as HB would have more survivors than the Vulkites.
Alternatively my mind frequently has come to see any individual 2K match up as largely reflecting a slice of the larger battle (this was a common set up for the historical war games I started playing before AoS, where for model reasons maybe only one flank of a battle was reflected, or only a few hours of the engagement that didn’t include certain units that arrived later or were held in reserve). So again, this is an easy mental adjustment for when I see big blobs of HBs (as in ahh, this is the core the army so the best troops are represented).
But net-net until Fyreslayers gets more multiple model units I see limited reason to restrict the use of ones we have.
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3 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:
mini Magmadroth/other Fyre beast Calvary (think goat riders from Middle-earth)
I would love a Fyreslayer Cavalry unit.
I’d be worried though if Vulkites became the only battleline option. I enjoy taking a nice block of them but wouldn’t want to start every list with three. Still only three games played as and two against in my Fyreslayers journey but know from FEC the value of “Batttleline IF...” in keeping an army fun and fresh. I wouldn’t mind at all though if they shifted the conditions away from who your general is to make them Lodge specific.
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1 minute ago, Ulfast said:
Im actually hoping we are not being rolled into a united tome as I like our unique aspect. What I would like is to expand with more units and make some background (fluff) more clear.
I´m really looking forward and as I bought my fyreslayer when they where released I´m going to buy the new endlesspells, our terrain and ofc the new book. After that I will try to get some more Hearthguards
Btw, most of my gamestores around where I live has sold out most of the things for fyreslayers. Is that just bad luck for me or is it similiar in other stories too (thinking specially about armybook, terrain and endless spells)?
I’d love if it there was a nice expansion a la Slaanesh. But having played a lot of Mawtribes and seen a lot of Warclans think there are ways both keep the unique flavors of the sub-factions whether BCR and Gutbusters implicitly in Mawtribes or Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz a lot more explicitly in Warclans. If they do combine I’d prefer the latter with pretty explicit options for pure Fyreslayer and KO lists but then a Big Waaagh!!! Equivalent that allows a unique United Duardin faction including both and Dispossessed.
As far as bad luck I know from speaking to both my locals (an actual GW and a broader gaming store) that they typically only stock 1 SC kit and 1 box of Hearthguard, replacing only with sale. This pretty common for older factions (e.g. until BR only stalking SC IDK and eels, or SC BCR and Gluttons or Ironguts) to my understanding. Retailers want to minimize slow turn inventory and outside of new Tome releases most older factions have low turn.
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2 hours ago, Ulfast said:
I´m thinking to restart my fyreslayers. I´m looking forward to start with a new paint work, geting some extra models etc. Do you have any nice advice for me?
Second, do you think GW has forgotten us? Because I think they could do so many fun things with our faction. Like some cavalery, dwarf with molten lances on smaller lizards, perhaps some female miniatures operating some sort of warmachine, perhaps a avatar of Grimnir (huge dwarf slayer with a big axe roaming around), etc. Or what do you think? Are GW planing something for the future or will they let us rest for a while?
I’m in the camp that thinks Fyreslayers will get rolled into a United Duardin Tome a la Orruk Warclans or Ogor Mawtribes. My hope is with that will come some new models. At a minimum just imagine dropping off 20x Hearthguard Berzerkers anywhere on the battlefield from a KO ship....
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6 hours ago, Martijn de Bruin said:
Seems like you enjoyed it 😄
Certainly the most fun I’ve had losing! (By double digits none the less.)
It is fascinating to see your list played by someone else. The list dictated certain approaches but my opponent still made different choices than I would’ve in certain areas as they are a bigger gambler. Here it paid off. (Would be curious how it would’ve played had I made those charges...)
But while I’m not a big tournament player (normal conditions 2-3 small locals a year) this will now be a regular part of my tournament prep. Learned a lot playing the list the first three matches but learned a lot trying to “crack it”, and expect to learn even more next two matches as I get ahold of new tools to try and accomplish that task.
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Too little, too late.
The tables have flipped in Zoom League so this time it was me trying to crack the Fyreslayers list with my opponent’s Khorne list. Having seen his “hammer” break on my Hearthguard Anvil I had a plan. Unfortunately Fyreslayers were just too good in the two rounds it took me to execute my plan and were helped by some failed charges,
I expected him to imitate my success in moving the Hearthguard Berzerkers with Battlesmith plus Bodyguards into the middle. I even got lucky that the primary objective landed in the West so he couldn’t just camp on it if I made him go first like I had when it had fallen in Center first two rounds. That forced him to bring the 20x Vulkites in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on foot out onto that objective R1.1. He also ran his 10x Vulkites out onto the East objective.
Okay, stunk starting off down 7 VP but felt I was in a good position to claw back 5 as I started the first part of my plan. FURY and two units of 5x Flesh Hounds went to the West. FURY was even able to snipe the Runesmiter in the Shooting Phase with his whip and all three of them made their charges so I was hopeful that I would be able to clear enough to force a painful battle shock he couldn’t CP without a HERO in range.
Meanwhile RAGE and 5x Flesh Hounds headed East to clear of the Vulkites. Unfortunately despite rerolls, they failed their charges.
When FURY and the Flesh Hounds in the West couldn’t get the job done I was left with... 0 VP. Any hope to make it up with a double turn was quickly evaporated when I rolled (yet another...) 2 for initiative.
In leaving a unit of Flesh Hounds and WRATH back my hope had been to draw forward the Hearthguard Berzerkers far enough to open a gap between them and the Battlesmith. My original hope had been to wipe the Vulkites in the East and the take advantage of Baleful Lords Run & Charge to fly RAGE into that gap and deal out enough damage and MWs to clear him and the Auric Hearthguard bodyguards. This would deprive the HBs of one of their +1 Saves, potentially their 4+ HERO shrug, and ideally their battalion ability to pile in and attack a second time. All in perfect time to slam Skarbrand into them.
In R2.1 this plan partially worked. The gap did open up. But my opponent popped the Runesmiter on Magmadroth Grand Ritual and moved him into position for the HBs to get a +1 to Save (and thus the HERO 4+ shrug) even if I killed the Battlesmith. Meanwhile the 20x Vulkites were also in the Runesmiter Grand Ritual buff bubble so they held out in the West another turn. Thus I was down 12-0 by the time I got my second turn.
RAGE would fly over and wipe out the Battlesmith but with 4+/4++ the Hearthguard handled the Skarbrand hit better than hoped. By that point the VP deficit was too much.
From the Fyreslayers perspective the 20x Vulkites Berzerkers were MVPs. The +1 Save from the Bladed Slingshield made a difference, especially when paired with the +1 from the Runesmiter’s Grand Ritual, in tying up a big chunk of my forces. To finally clear them R3 I’d need to summon 10x more Flesh Hounds. Now was that Khorne’s hammer? No. But by holding out in the West so long they prevented the Tyrants from converging in the middle against the rest all while wracking up VP. The Warpick’s Rend, especially when doubled to -2 in R2 when the tune was in effect, also made sure they wore down the units tied up with them. Add in Berzerker Fury, allowing pile in on death and points wise they came out at least even. I’ve definitely come to appreciate the value of this block in the list.
Again, this is far from a fully optimized list but I like that it has more tools than I expected. It can put 20x semi-resilient Vulkites bodies on an objective, especially with Vostarg movement or Runesmiter’s tunnel, with the knowledge that the opponent probably has to turn their hardest hitters in the direction of the Hearthguard Berzerkers. Meanwhile, in later rounds the Magmadroths get chances to shine.
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2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
Not to mention the weird situation where the starter sets are not balanced by points and contain lots of under strength units. I certainly would not want a repeat of that for 3.0.
That would be great but I didn’t want to get “greedy”😁
Consistent with what @Skreech Verminking pointed out it would be nice if more of the faction specific start collecting sets were closer to actual list requirements. Not sure how true the new 40K Combat Patrol boxes are to the concept of having a ready to play force out of box but the concept gets me hopeful that it is a direction AoS can go towards.
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To take a completely different angle, as someone who is an active AoS evangelist (have brought close to a dozen people into game at this point) what I want is for the factions they choose to be in the start collecting kits to be good for the life span of 3.0.
For 2.0 the easiest and cheapest (except for the BCR SC exception) armies to build were Stormcast Eternals and Nighthaunt, which dominated the start collecting battle boxes coming out of Soul Wars and the cheap easy build kits (as well as being the focus of the paint sets for that matter). But for a large chunk of 3.0 they were armies with severe battletome issues in comparison to most other armies. This a real barrier to converting someone I taught to play into an actual army owner.
Not saying they have to be top tier for all of 3.0. Just want a commitment that those cheap entry points will give new players a fun & viable start throughout.
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What is YOUR Meta?
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
NO!!!!!
Those hordes of hundreds of clan rats must rise from the depths. Those Doomwheels must roll!
Before Clans Pestilens got one over which factions were facing your overwhelming vermintide?