Gistradagis
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Posts posted by Gistradagis
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1 minute ago, Snakeb1te said:
I've had a look at the three Cancon lists running Plaguetouched. They do indeed have 8+ units, but that could be because they did not want to risk running afoul of a ruling... or that they genuinely wanted those two extra Chaos Spawn in their list ;).
Never underestimate some good tentacles.
I mean, they are good for objectives! Yeah, that.
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3 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:
What he means is - why can't they just word it something like "requires 7 mortal Slaves to Darkness units, at least one of which must be a hero".
I suppose it doesn't match the format.
Anyway @Nasnad, have yourself a Plaguetouched if you can.
Precisely. The wording is really weird and vague unless the warband requires 8 units total (1 hero minimum, and 7 more units). Even then, the wording's still a bit odd, but it makes more sense to me since I believe I've only seen lists with Plaguetouched that ran those 8 units.
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1 minute ago, NJohansson said:
All warscrolls are units - even if they are only consisting of one model. Thus a hero is a unit for all intent and purposes. So you basically must have one unit that is also a hero and the rest can be any units (including individual heroes).
I know that all warscrolls are units. I'm talking about how the warband's ruling specifically lists a hero apart, and then also asks for 7 units. As you say, all heroes are also units, which means it'd be a bit redundant to put this as its own line in the requirements unless the hero unit is not a part of the 7 you need.
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1 minute ago, Snakeb1te said:
Well a hero is fulfilling the requirement of being a unit and a hero isn't it? Perhaps the more experience folk in this thread can confirm.
As far as I have seen, all lists with the warband have 8 units in total, which makes sense to me since the army book diferentiates between the 1 hero, and the 7 units you need. Otherwise, it would (should) word it as something like "7 units with Mark or Nurgle, with at least one hero". Or so I'd guess.
Maybe someone will confirm, as you say.
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1 minute ago, Snakeb1te said:
- Karkadrak
- Sorceror
- Lord
- x15 Warriors
- x5 Knights
- x5 Knights
- Warshrine
Boom. Heroes count as units.
If that's for the Nurgle battalion, then it's not enough. It's a hero + 7 units, meaning 8 in total with the Mark, I believe?
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2 minutes ago, Nasnad said:
No problem changing that, just though that it might be needed if there are a couple of center objectives.
Could be, but it's a risky manoeuvre. The moment you lose a single model, you no longer get the save rerolls for having 10+ models, so it's usually better to always try and run Warriors in blocks of 15 whenever possible.
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20 minutes ago, Nasnad said:
Trying to make an army from 2 of the new start collecting! boxes, not sure about marks, artifacts and spells yet, but this is what i got so far:
Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- General
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
Battleline
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
10 x Chaos Knights (360)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Units
1 x Fomoroid Crusher (100)
Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
2 units of 10 warriors is... kinda rough. I'd almost recommend running them as 5 and 15, so that at least one of these blocks can be more durable, and the other functions as a screening unit, or to leave behind on some objective.
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1 minute ago, PiotrW said:
I also do agree that Chaos Marauders are just... completely unappealing visually, to be polite.
Coincidentally, I also think that Chaos Knights with lances make zero sense. Which means that of the "core" StD units, only Warriors and Chariots are fieldable, at least for me. One of the reasons I'm not sure I'd want to play with this army...
I'd definitely play Knights over Chariot any day. You could make an argument for them before the FAQ, since units of 1 Chariot were less... terrible, let's say. Right now, though? 120 lost points, I'd say. While Knights are less than ideal, you CAN sort of make them work through buffs.
By the way, for Marauders I simply took 40 Kairic Acolytes, put them on the appropriate bases, and call them Marauders.
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Just now, GeneralZero said:
The biggest argument: marauders are awful, warriors and knights are magnificent (especially the new ones). Period. lol
I'm gonna guess you mean the models, and not the profiles.
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3 minutes ago, NJohansson said:
On paper yes - I agree with that but unfortunately I get 40 marauders for the cost of 15 warriors. So even when it comes to holding objectives the marauders will most likely be a better choice most of the time. They loose out to spells damaging per model (sorcerer lord on Manticore, Gaunt etc) but otherwise they are a better screen, anvil and hammer than warriors. Saying that - you can definitely get warriors to work (and they are no terrible choice) but point per point you will most likely always want the marauders. Not to mention - if you need a real anvil then a gaunt summoner with his free horrors will give you 50 wounds for 200 points and 40-60 points extra for a great wizard (240-260 points for the summoner).
Well, I've found them serviceable enough. While Marauders are more tempting, I fear the enemy getting to them first or using some damaging spell and destroying half the unit in a single turn, almost completely nullifying their use. At the end of the day, despite how much I hate that Chaos Warriors are a huge blob of blandness, I feel like unless I get really unlucky they'll do their job, while a unit of Marauders can be such a gamble.
To be fair, I do also play Marauders; they are the hammer. Regarding the Gaunt Summoner, while he can certainly "cheese" it, I already have some magic support with a Wizard on Foot who will use his great ability every turn, and Be'Lakor, so I prefer a unit that can take Khorne's mark and be positively resilient, despite not being good in any other way.
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6 minutes ago, NJohansson said:
Point for point - marauders are superior in almost every way. You can make warriors work but I use them more for fluff/aesthetics than for any real gaming reason.
Marauders are superior in every way except the one that matters for the purpose I'm speaking of: resilience. Either as an anvil or to hold an objective, Chaos Warriors are just more reliable. You can't expect them to do any damage whatsoever, but they should be able to hold against most units for quite a while.
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31 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
They‘re okay but overcosted ^^ (and somewhat too weak for what you’d expect of them lore-wise)
The rough thing, I believe, is that you don't have that many more options. StD doesn't have many anvils or mobile "tanks". You could play more Marauders instead of Warriors, but this can quickly fall apart. And Marauder on Horsemen give you some mobility and a slight ranged threat, but will instantly disappear if caught.
It's the main reason I run them despite being overcosted. I need an anvil-like unit I can run to the middle of the map/important objective, or resist for a while as the Marauders flank. And Knights can at least somewhat reliably run to an objective and hold it for a while, even do some damage with smth such as Khorne mark or so.
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Just now, Bernival said:
Oh, that's awesome! Thank you. I dont know why but I kept reading into it as the aura was projecting out from the model to 12 inches and wasnt affecting the model itself. That's great news!
No problem, I had the same question at first too! It's very typical of videogames and such that auras projected from heroes and the like affect other troops, but not themselves.
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7 minutes ago, Bernival said:
Hey guys, unrelated question, but I figured this is the best place to ask. I have a huge StD army but rarely get to play the game- have just started getting some semi regular games in and I had a question regarding auras. Namely, do heroes casting out an aura benefit from its effect? From my reading it seems like that is not the case, but i just wanted to clarify since i couldn't really find any info online about it. Thank you.
All the aura effects say something such as "Do X for friendly StD within Y" of this model (the hero)." Now, is the hero within those Y"? Yes, they are within 0" of themselves, to be specific. Are they a friendly StD unit? Yes. Consequently, all heroes are obviously affected by their own auras.
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48 minutes ago, Snakeb1te said:
With rerolling 1s for instance, they have the same output as hand weapons I believe. The MW5+ save is so much more valuable than even a little more damage that the greatblades provide.
The only argument for a loadout that isn't sword and board, is for double handed weapons at units of 15+ (rerolling hit rolls and rerolling saves without needing buffs), and halberds, for the truly massive brick of warriors in narrow spaces.
Unfortunately, I think greatblades are pointless without any way to make them +1 to hit.
Well, I'm of a mind of trying a block of 15+ Warriors with greatblades and Khorne mark. That way we get the sort of weapon they need to have a chance to do something, re-roll 1s to hit and have +1 to wound ("close" to the general).
I honestly don't know to what point the shield for the 5+ against MW is good. I've played like 3-4 games and haven't used them a single time. There aren't that many things that deal MW directly, and the ones that do will usually target a more valuable unit than Chaos Warriors.
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1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:
What is the loadout of those warriors?
I'm am hesitating to buy the great blade kit to make them hit at rend -1. So, how to build the unit?
The classic style is to just run them with hand weapon and shield. They'll hit for sht, but have a decent defence against MW.
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1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:
What do you think about the 2 big beast we have (in the same kit) : the Mutalith and the Slaughterbrute ? The miniature is wonderful, the Mutalith can also be plaid in a 40K Thousand Sons army (and being not that bad as it is cheap in pts). So, how could we buff & play those big beasties?
The Mutalith is so-so. A bit too random to be considered reliable in combat. The Slaughterbrute is famous for being historically bad. As far as I know, it was bad in fantasy, was bad in AoS, and is still bad in the new StD. I'd rather get the Soul Grinder, although I have yet to try it in play to see if it's good enough.
In regards of how to buff them, I'd say you probably want to run a Despoilers list, if you wanna play monsters.
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3 minutes ago, Midjithero said:
No, I only run Be’lakor and 1 unit of marauders as undivided, rest is Slaanesh. I’ll add the potential Pleasurebound list, as I think it has play against cities, Tzeentch and shooty skaven because of the Spellportal/demon fire rift combo.
my other thought is to drop the 40man marauders down to a 20man unit and add either palisades/balewind and 2nd Sorc Lord/great bray shaman for the Scorpian “Get over here!” Spell
I'd also run the Marauders as Slaanesh, then. They are a kamikaze unit, so I wouldn't recommend to try and give them the FNP aura, because it'll hardly be worth it. I'd also recommend against going down to 20. This would mean that losing a single unit already takes away their rend (for 20+ models), and the unit WILL lose a number of models every time anything targets them, FNP or no FNP. Just as an example, I ran them as Khorne and managed to cast Mask of Darkness, so I teleported them behind enemy lines and charged in a super-spread thin line. I hit a hero, a unit of stalkers, and some mortek guards. Killed the hero and some guards, and left a Stalker with 1 wound left (he had put them on the defensive). Then, on the counter, he killed like 14 Marauders. As I was running them as 40, however, that still gave me a really strong attack the following turn, while a unit of 20 would already be almost decimated and lose all their bonuses.
If you could get some points sacrificing stuff, it would be amazing to get a Daemon Prince in there. Put it as Slaanesh to get the full benefit of an 18" aura of an aggressive mark, and have him be a combat monster that kills a bunch of stuff and is difficult to bring down (with its 3+, 5+, heal on your turn). You could also give it a General Trait, then, such as Bolstered by Hate (+2 Wounds to model) or Paragon of Ruin (before first round, D3 of your units can move up to 5").
At least that's how I feel, but I haven't had that much experience with the army yet, so perhaps I'm missing something key and your idea's more solid than mine.
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2 minutes ago, Midjithero said:
So, I just started putting real thought into a despoilers list and I use Be’lakor as the general. With a Warshrine, Be’lakor as Despoiler General gets the following saves: 4+ unmodified armor save, 5+ Despoilers General FNP, 6+ Undivided General FNP, 6+ Warshrine Aura!! And, he heals d3 every hero phase and every time a unit fails a battle shock.
I ran him with a 40block of marauders marked Undivided, and the rest of the army Slaanesh.
also, Karkadrak Fs things so hard when you give it -3 rend on his main weapon. I ran him in Godsworn and he’s awesome attacking potentially 3 times. Although now I’m looking at Pleasurebound for the extra 3” pile in.I had the same idea and I do believe it might have some potential, although only if you really dive super deep into Undivided. The only problem I see is this: StD is already a bit on the weaker side when it comes to damage. By running pure Undivided, you sacrifice the potential for strength for a 6+ FNP. Be'Lakor becomes nearly indestructible... but he's not THAT strong individually; he's great as a support unit, throwing and dispelling spells, using his Dark Master ability, etc. but he doesn't deal too much damage. I played a game of like 1.5k points of Undivided, and it felt very underwhelming.
I'd personally be interested in a Despoilers list that runs Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (he really does *** people up) with a bunch of DPs, Be'Lakor, and then some cavalry for a ruinbringers warband. A super aggressive list that looks to charge head-first into battle and destroy everything, or even more control-y with your troops' superior mobility.
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20 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:
SO question, can Be’lakor lead a despoilers army and get the abilities listed there’s minus traits and artefacts?
i couldn’t find anything saying no in my quick flip thru, I want the experts opinion on this (I want an 18 inch undivided buff gawd dammit!)
Yes, you 100% can. It's a bit of a "waste" since you are forced to run Undivided as your General's aura with him, and can take neither Trait nor Artefact with him, as you say.
Well, finally did a "real" 2k points game with StD against Ossiarch and I have to say that it was what I expected, mostly. Chaos Knights feel right, although I would never run them with lances unless you're 100% sure you can get at least 3 charges with them in the game. Warriors are... bland? Unreliable? As most people comment, they need to either be more resilient or, what would be 100% better, cost a bit more and have some rend on their basic weapons. Right now you pretty much must run a unit of 15+, they are slow, deal no damage, and will nevertheless die to anything with rend.
Daemon Princes (and Be'Lakor) and Marauders did some real work, though. Even playing against Ossiarch, the Marauders on charge are just great, and the DPs are great overall for whatever you might need them. My general was a DP with the amulet artefact, meaning he had a 3+ (ignore rend), followed with a 5+ FNP. It tanked a unit of 20 mortek guards (what's this stupid unit even) and Katakros the entire game.
I ended up winning thanks to points, but I certainly saw the army's main weaknesses, and why the most prominent complain is that we are sort of a jack of all trades army, but slightly below average. While I kinda disagree with the last, it is true that you need a very solid list. An unefficient StD list will fall through extremely fast.
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1 hour ago, begleysm said:
A nice improvement to the Knights would be to simply let them use the Lance on the charge and the Ensorcelled Weapons afterwards. That's how Knights would actually operate anyhow: charge in with the Lance, drop it, pull your Ensorcelled Sword and fight on. Hell, the sculpts are even modeled that way with swords in scabbards and lances in hand.
Maybe if that was too strong you could charge with the Lance once per battle (then it breaks/is dropped)
You're nuts. That would make the Knights efficient or something!
2 hours ago, Kurrilino said:This is because they are build to be charger and nothing else.
Entangle an enemy unit and charge in. Make sure you can defeat the unit first
I guess that's fair. Since I'm running them to annoy/hold a point for a while due to building a Despoilers list with monsters, I might stick with Ensorcelled Weapons for their stability, as it'll be a unit of 5 and can't be sure I'll run it together with enough stuff to obliterate a unit on the first round. Although, now that I'm writing this, it would also make sense to get a charge with both a DP and knights, fight first with DP and then finish it off with the Knights on lances...
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@JackStreicher Manticore Lords and Chosen are too ugly so use, but the worst offender of them all, Marauders, works like a charm? 😛
10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:DP - works everytime as well (if you‘re not stupid like me by reading the weapon setup wrong and thinking he could only have one weapon...)
Manticore Lords - hard skip due to looking so bad I don‘t even want to touch the model
About DPs, do you mean their Talons? Or the Axe/Sword? Cuz you can only take either, afaik.
The Sorcerer on Manticore looks good enough for me to consider it!
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38 minutes ago, Enoby said:
I've used Bestigors before (in Slaanesh where 6s were 3 hits), and while great on a charge against a large unit, on their own they would have 21 attacks at 4/3/-1/1 for 120(?) points. Chosen have 16 attacks at 3/3/-1/1 (6s to hit are a MW in addition) for 140. So offensively they're rather similar at base, and then certain buffs can change the effectiveness greatly (e.g. a chaos lord or sorcerer, or a charge, or attacking a large unit, or just allegiance abilities in general). Movement wise bestigors win by a long shot, and that's probably their biggest difference. That said, I think chosen coming down to 120 would leave them in a comfortable spot.
I do agree that, on the whole, they aren't a particularly damaging faction (besides Sixth Circle Varanguard on a charge with Archaon), so I don't think they're top tier, but I think they're not bad - they can hold their own with the right buffs, and after playing Slaanesh for a long time, it's nice to have a faction that isn't guaranteed a win (tbh, wanting a tier S faction, at least for me, seemed to be a bit of a monkey's paw).
The problem is that they feel sort of half-assed. To win a given game, you want to either be strong enough to push through enemy defences, or resilient enough to get and hold objectives. STD does both ok, which at the same time means it isn't particularly good at either. At least, that's how it feels to me.
The units have good synergies, but it's difficult to combine them all. If you want to bank on, say, Nurgle or Khorne, you need a good deal of points invested in it. Daemon Prince for the Command, a Shrine if you want go to the Nurgle 'tank', perhaps allies for Khorne, etc. You end up having to decide on one style/trick and bet your all on it, which is kinda ironic since STD is supposed to be about Chaos in general (not just undivided, but also combinations), not mostly enforcing one god.
From all that I've seen, heard, and played, it's not that STD is bad, but GW kind of made sure they can't beat the armies with better synergies/stats. Like, Chaos Warriors are ok, and can be very resilient, but you have to invest a ton of ****** on them, same with Knights. Then you get to some units from Cities, or IJ, Fyreslayers, Ossiarch, and see units with similar points that are either better suited to do a specialized role, or just straight up superior. Personally, I think STD mostly reels from being overcosted. It might be too late to change something substancial like adding more rend or better saves on certain units, but stuff like Knights or Chariots could be worth less points, Cultists could get a Chaos Mark, etc.
2 hours ago, Salyx said:Marauders Horsemen are Not there to fight, so they do not need that much of a Mark. Perhaps undivided for battleshock immunity. Anyone got bettet ideas?
Maybe Tzeentch, and have them pepper the enemies with javelins while close to a sorcerer, so at least they get a better save?
8 hours ago, Kurrilino said:Actually i play lances and only on units that are already entangled
How do they feel? A friend keeps telling me to run lances on my Knights, but they feel so inefficient... sure, you might get a sweet charge round, but every turn after that it's a weapon profile with terrible stats. And this only if you get an amazing charge (or the charge at all).
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1 hour ago, Rod said:
Then why archaon can be taken in all four specific gods books without being in that battletome?
He's a cheeky ass that stole Be'Lakor's due.
AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
Gotta play it smart :^)
To be fair, though, a Spawn within a Plaguetouched Warband can surprise an opponent. It has enough Wounds to survive some minor scuffling, and could dish some damage by bouncing back MWs.