AngryPanda
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Posts posted by AngryPanda
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“We welcome your thoughts on the new points values, so please do not hesitate to send them in. The feedback that is particularly useful for us is that which focuses on powerful synergies and rules interactions between units that seem to have not been accounted for. Rest assured, we look at every bit of feedback that is submitted and greatly appreciate everyone who takes the time to do so.”
I'm sure as GW posted this, they were looking at the survey we sent them and couldn’t hold themselves back from laughing.
On another note, how do you guys think we do against other armies, aside from Lumanith (who are in a category of their own)? I actually think we match up pretty competitively against most armies, excluding a few that are top tier.
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16 hours ago, Gordrakk said:
New point changes are rough, but I’m not chucking the towel in just yet! What does everyone think to this draft list?
Host: Lurid Haze
Core Batallion: Warlord
Dex’cessa - 280pts
Shardspeaker of Slaanesh - Dark Delusions - 150pts
Lord of Pain (General) - Oil of Exultation, Feverish Anticpation - 150pts
10 Symbaresh Twinsouls - 370pts
Core Batallion: Vanguard
Sigvald the Magnificent - 265pts
5 Myrmidesh Painbringers - 160pts
5 Myrmidesh Painbringers - 160pts
Core Batallion: Vanguard
Bladebringer on Seeker Chariot - Amulet of Destiny, Born of Damnation - 190pts
5 Hellstriders with Claw Spears - 135pts
5 Hellstriders with Claw Spears - 135pts
Total: 2000pts
94 Wounds in total, got a mix of speed and a couple of hammer and anvil units.
Lord of Pain is 155, might have to change your list
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Highlighting a point that @Jaskier and @Enoby made from their experiences, it seems Twinsouls are going to have a place in a number of Slaanesh list due to their damage-dealing potential.
I’m not saying that the points are justifiable, and I am still on the same boat with you guys ifor the vast majority of the models. However, after looking at the Twinsouls again, I’m starting to think that they may be worth the 185 luxury price tag, and that they may actually be a bit undercosted in 3.0.
Before you consider me crazy or a traitor, here me out on this. AoS 3.0 had made a number of changes, one of the biggest being unit coherency. The majority of horde or elite infantry blocks will no longer have the killing potential that they did in the past due to only have 1 inch on their weapons ; the exception is Twinsouls with their 2 inch range.
A unit of 10 Twinsouls will be able to throw in 30 attacks, rerolling to hit on +3 with CP buff, and wounding on +3 (+2 if a Shardspeaker tags along). It is rare to have that many attacks at such a high quality in this edition; you’re not going to see many units in the game with this potential for damage output. Sure they have no rend, but when you’re doing 2 damage for every successful wound, even if a measly three or four attacks make it through that’s still 6-8 damage.
The same can be said for Painbringers, who will have easy access to a +3 save, and will be much harder to damage now that unit coherency is much more limiting. A unit of 10 Painbringers supported by Glutos and an emerald swarm is going to be very “fun.”
If you ally in some cheap monsters to get access to the new monster abilities, like the Mindstealer Sphiranx that has a rule that mimics our original Locus of Diversion, and suddenly you’re looking at an army that hits you first with the potential for little repercussion.
None of this includes the ability to summon in Daemons, which have the opportunity to fill in gaps (battleline to hold objectives, Fiends to hunt monsters or calvary, etc.)The points suck, but that doesn’t mean we need to suck as well. The great thing about being an underdog is that nobody suspects you to put up a decent fight; this element of surprise is can give us the opportunity to make some lists that catch people off guard. Take a look at the list below and let me know what you think:
Slaanesh List #2Invaders- 3 cp a turn (Rod, General, Beginning of Turn) 4 first round (Warlord Battalion)
2000/2000
Warlord Battalion
- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact
Heroes:
Glutos- 475
- Spell: Judgement of Excess
Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Amulet of Destiny
- Spell: Dark Delusions
Lord of Pain- 155
General #2
Command Trait: Glory Hog
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
Triumph: Inspired
Batteline:
Twinsouls x 10- 370
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 180
Painbringers x 10- 320
Monsters-
Mindstealer Sphiranx- 95
Mindstealer Sphiranx- 95
Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (60)
Wheels of Excruciation (100)
Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess
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On 6/20/2021 at 1:19 AM, Dingding123 said:
I get that Slaneesh definitely got hit unreasonably hard, but the changes to GSG all seem more than reasonable to me. The models that weren't seeing much play didn't get touched, while the battlelines got hit to discourage people from going 120+ Grots like they did before (which was honestly incredibly dull). Most Behemoths took a hit but with the new Rampages that was bound to happen; same with Endless Spells due to them now being bound. Just because they were off the mark somewhere doesn't mean they're terrorists and out to destroy the game as we know it is my point basically lol.
Unless you're a Slaanesh player lol
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5 hours ago, Carnith said:
As I've said before, I'd rather our summoning costs increase to let our points decrease. I'd rather have more units on the board than have to rely on summoning to feel like we have a chance. If I only ever summoning A keeper, then great. I'd love it.
Personally, I never understood why summoning was ever the main focus of Slaanesh. Out of the four chaos gods, why is the Prince of Pleasure considered the summoning god? It doesn’t make sense lore-wise, and it just seems GW didn’t know what to do with HoS when it first released, so they made Uber-summoning the main focus of the army from the lack of inspiration.
It would of been far more interesting and balanced (for us and the meta) if depravity points could also be used on in-game unit buffs, similar to but also diametrically opposed to Slaanesh’s counterpart, Khorne. Whereas Khorne’s units gain the potential to become stronger for a turn after killing a unit, Slaanesh’s followers would gain spendable, single turn bonuses that alter the battlefield or make certain units more powerful after damaging units. For example, instead of summoning 30 Daemonettes, you can choose up to d3 unit to attack twice, or you can force a single enemy unit to attack last in the combat phase (the old locus of diversion rule). It would be costly but very useful, which is why it’s an end-game ability that requires to you save your DP instead of just spamming mass-Daemonettes.
Granted, it’s a lot easier to damage something as opposed to destroying it, and would make sense for the DP costs for summoning and these theoretical abilities to be higher than the cost requirements in Khorne’s bloodtithe system; if it reduces our point costs then I would be all for it.
I’m probably going to be focused on the painting and basing component of the hobby for the next couple of months, as opposed to the gaming aspect, to give myself a break and to observe how we stand after the meta begins to settle in 3rd. It’ll give me time to observe other’s experiences, and make some stronger conclusions; though my gut instinct tells me that the points are incredibly over-priced. Hopefully the FAQ addresses some of the problems, but I doubt it.
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I’m just gonna leave this meme here to summarize my overall feelings towards the HoS point increases, both from yesterday and carrying into today. This is gonna be the last comment on the HoS point increase I’ll make here because I agree that this forum is for rumors and not this type of discussion.
Regarding the nuke that HoS (an already crippled battletome) got to their points, it is the political equivalent of dropping a hydrogen bomb on a developing country, and having the UN say “let’s just wait and see what GW will do next, I’m sure it will get better.”
I agree that we should wait for the FAQ, but this the last time we should wait before taking action. If there are changes, then we can end it here. Yet if there aren’t, then this is the kind of blunt disconnect from the community needs to be addressed; it’s just wrong and unfair to people who’ve spent hours painting their armies and being loyal customers only to be treated so poorly. We put numerous hours and hundreds of dollars into this hobby, you would think that GW would have the decency to be a bit more open about the changes they make?
Take a look at what we did over on the HoS side of TGA. Since February, we kept saying “let’s wait.” We waited for our battletome to be released, only to be disappointed. We waited for the FAQ, which didn’t address any of the problems the book had. We waited for the GHB, which was a massive nerf to an already crippled faction, and now we are being asked to wait for the next FAQ. When is the waiting going to end? People who say we’re angry about the hobby and need to chill aren’t seeing the entirety of the picture here: we came together as a community and developed a survey that was submitted and confirmed to have been read. The vast majority of the community, in terms of player base and influential figures, agreed the book sucked. Yet, it feels like they took what we said and tossed us aside as if we are nothing.
We’re not asking to be Uber-powerful; we’re just asking for some basic standards to be established. A point drop would of sufficed, people would have been happy if we had just stayed the same, or even gotten a very small increase in the new edition. Instead, HoS was the third most increased faction in the game. It’s wrong what they did, and if there aren’t changes in the faq we gotta do something to at least get some answers.
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8 minutes ago, Chikout said:
You don't need to buy the ghb yet. Watch the facehammer video or the honest wargamer video, try out the points and battleplans they talk about.
If it turns out to be good, then buy the ghb.
The thing to think about is that any issues raised by the community in the last 6 months. won't be in the core book or the ghb.
The faq is the key. This is the chance for gw to listen to what players have been worrying about for the last few weeks regrading the new edition and for the last few months regarding shooting. If the faq also turns out to be poor, then I will be at the front of the queue in sharing my displeasure, but there is still time for it to be great and fix a bunch of problems.
I agree, however if you look at the FAQ back in March in response to the criticism regarding HoS, there were no changes that address the major problems of the release; particularly the Fiendbloods becoming a meme within the community regarding how bad they were.
It just feels awful when the majority figures in the hobby are laughing at or heavily criticizing the book, and there’s no reaction from GW; especially if said criticism is unanimous. Us Slaanesh players have been very patient, and month after month of disappointments has left us feeling burnt. I’ll wait till the FAQ, but if there’s no response from GW, I legitimately believe we as a community need to stand up against this blunt disregard for what the community has to say.
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8 minutes ago, frostyeel said:
I'm sure they had already finalized this GHB and sent it out to print by April. That's the problem of focusing on print books, everything needs to be decided far in advance that adjustments will always lag far behind reality.
1 minute ago, Chikout said:@AngryPanda I think you are misdirecting your anger here. Books are worked on about a year ahead of time and something like points is done about 6 months ahead of time. The ghb was probably already printed before they received your info.
It's not that they aren't listening necessarily, it's that the draconian product method makes it almost impossible to listen.
We saw the same thing with 40k recently. Lacklustre book, great faq.
Yea you guys are right, but seeing the point increases still really stings. A lot of us on the HoS side were really hoping for some reductions, and when we heard that there were going to be point increases across all armies in the game we were hopeful that we would either be untouched or slightly increased. The fact that GW increased it so exponentially considering how bad the points were, even if the books were printed a year in advance, shows some disconnect.
In that case, if they don't address the issue (like they did with the FAQ in march), then I say that there needs to be some sort of effort on our part as a community to address such obvious lack of disconnect.
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Ok guys, we seriously need to talk about the massive, pink elephant in the room that is Slaanesh.
It is not ok what they did, and GW needs to know about this.
The larger figures in the community (Goonhammer, Honest Wargamer, Miniwargaming, etc.) have directly stated their opinions, and its generally be unanimous that when the Slaanesh battletome's points were overpriced. In response, on the other side of TGA via the Hedonites of Slaanesh forums, the community had banned together to create a respectable and well thought out survey that took many months of collaboration to complete. People from different parts of the internet took part, and it received a decent number of responses, totaling above 300; the vast majority agreed that the points were absurdly high. We had sent it over in late April, where it was confirmed that the rules team at GW had seen the responses from the survey, and the responses from the more prevalent community figures such as the one's mentioned above.
Below is a link to the survey results:
The Hedonites of Slaanesh TGA Discussion:
Within the hidden content is the copy/paste email that was sent:
SpoilerDear GW,
I have been an active member of both the 40k and Warhammer Fantasy community for over 14 years. I love the hobby, as the universes of 40k and AoS are my favorite science fiction and fantasy settings respectfully.
Since 2016, Age of Sigmar has been a significant passion of mine to which I've dedicated many hours. As a Khorne Bloodbound and Slaanesh player, I have undergone narrative campaigns, casual nights, and have also participated in a few local tournaments; many great memories have come from these events.
I have had my fair share of experiences, and am enjoying the direction that the game is heading. The new Hedonites release from February had me very excited, for the mortal sculpts are some of the best I've seen come from the design studio. Yet, having played against them a few times and observing several other games, I and some prominent figures in the community (Goonhammer, The Honest Wargamer, Miniwargaming, Age of Sigmar List Lab , etc.) have noticed that the point values for the mortal and many Daemon units are excessively high.
To express my opinion, I have recently taken a survey which has been passed throughout the AoS community online and has received over 300 responses. Linked is the survey and the results:
In the coming months, I and others in the community feel that a point decrease to the mortal units mentioned, potentially to some Daemons, and a change to the Slaangor warscroll would bring the army more into alignment/balance with other armies.
I hope you consider the feedback that I have suggested for future updates or changes to the army, as well as the data within the recent survey, and I look forward to the coming years of content!
Best regards and thank you,
- Angry Panda
The original email had the working links, in addition to the survey results being able to be visibly shown.
For them to not only take the community feedback into consideration, but to actually increase the points higher then all the other army so far (more then 655 point increase across the entire army!) is beyond ridiculous, and tells me that either that they don't give a ****** about the community's opinion, that there is someone on the rules team that has it in for HoS, or a mix of both.
This is the kind of ****** that needs to be address. If we simply stand by and not say anything, then it just shows that GW can have their way with us in any means that they see fit without any repercussions. We need to do something about this.
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Ok, so I just took a look at the point changes on reddit (everything is on there, including the endless spell changes).
Out of all the armies, we have received the largest increase in points, with a whopping +655 or more across our army roster. What the hell.
Everything above I hold my word to, but I'm definitely going to be watching AoS 3.0 at least a month after its release to observe people's experiences with the army; suffice to say I am speechless again. I can't imagine how Goonhammer, or Honest Wargamer are going to react.
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Ok....I've taken a moment to step away from my computer and breath, and I have to say that after taking a very brisk walk I feel my head has cleared up considerably and I am able to give a more laxed analysis of our situation. I've bolded some of the main points for reference, and to highlight the takeaways I find most important.
I haven't seen all the rumored point changes, mostly because they are hard to find. The biggest offender I've heard, besides Slaanesh receiving the unwarranted point increases, is the lack of changes for Lumanith; supposedly the "problem" units remained relatively the same. I have not seen this, rather I've heard this from the other rumor boards on TGA, so take this with a pretty big grain of salt. This tells me that there is either obvious favoritism at GW, that there is a disconnect between the community and the gamers, or a bit of both. In either case, there have been some changes to other armies that have impacted their playstyles as well (Orruks 'Ardboyz are now 120 pts for 5 which has more than doubled their price; Tzeentch was also apparently nuked with massive point increases across the board). This also doesn't include the newly introduces reinforcement rules, which will also limit list building across multiple other armies, and has left us relatively untouched. That's not to say that we weren't hurt, but rather it's somewhat comforting to know that other armies have also felt the punch to points that this edition was rumored to bring.
Which leads me into one of my main conclusions: we're not the only one's receiving these point increases. We don't know for certain how much the points are going to increase across the entirety of the game until the core book is released or there are confirmed leaks. In fact, we might actually be relatively alright compared to other armies who are very likely going to get some decent increases as well. For example, the beautifully sculpted yet initially problematic painbringers only went up 10 points, whereas the twinsouls (with a 2 inch reach, I'll get to this soon) went up only 15. In an edition where we are sure to see more monsters, Fiends went up by 20 to 200, from 180, a decent amount. Yet, in an edition where heroes monsters have become far more useful, they may serve a far more valuable role as monster/hero hunters with their D6 damage tails, and therefore the point increase may be relatively humble.
Which leads into the second position that I wish to address: let's assume the hypothetical that the worst will occur, that all the other armies in the game have relatively low point increases and we were in the minority to receive an above average points bump. Well, I have good news, and it is that fellow community members such as @Enoby and other have pointed out some fantastic highlights for us that have already been confirmed: the core rules for AoS 3.0 seems to be tailored towards our type of playstyle. I won't list out the entirety of the main analysis', but if you go back a few pages from this page you'll see some excellent rundowns on how this edition benefits our unique strategy centered around generating depravity and taking MSU units, which equates also equates to reinforcement limitations not applying much to us.
To highlight some major changes that benefit us, this edition has definitely moved towards MSU-based lists via the introduction of reinforcement rules and higher point costs. This is going to result in generating depravity being easier than ever, especially with the changes to how endless spells work. Though the Wheels of Excruciation have doubled in points, being able to control them is going to make them an efficient and relatively reliable MW/DP generator; you can also run them over our own troops while they're in combat without causing any damage to ourselves! This also means that summoning is going to be much more impactful. Smaller games with smaller boards and multiple MSU units equates to large units of summoned daemonettes, seekers, or fiends being far more dangerous.
In my opinion, 160 points for painbringers is a steal in an edition that saw broad increases to points across all the armies in the game. These guys are practically unkillable without high rend or MWs, and with the addition of a +1 save CP ability and the changes to mystic shield, getting them to a +3 rerollable is going to be very easy. However, this doesn't include the best part: the changes to unit coherency have made it very difficult or impossible for units with 1 inch reach weapons to attack with all their models. This means that painbringers, while they will only be able to attack with the first 5 or 6 units in the front, will be able to hold off massive hordes of less-valuable infantry without getting swarmed like in the previous edition. Mixed with Glutos' -1 hit aura and the emerald swarm endless spell (which you can also control and put directly behind these guys for those sweet revives), these guys are going to hold the line and be able to actually do a good amount of damage in return. I plan to run these guys next to Glutos, an emerald swarm, and a Lord of Pain for reroll to hits if I decide to get back into the game.
Twinsouls are going to be kickass. The two inch reach is now going to be very important, and they'll be very unique compared to other elite units that only have a 1" inch reach. A unit of ten running in front of a shardspeaker (which saw no changes to the points, making them relatively cheap compared to other casters in the game), will have 30 attacks that are hitting on +3 (with command abilities), rerolling all failed hits, and wounding on +2 from the Shardspeaker's ability.
I'm not saying that I agree with the point increases, and I am most certainly on the same boat with everyone here. I feel your pain because I feel the pain as well; something very fitting as a follower of Slaanesh. What I am simply saying, as one fellow player to another in the most reassuring and friendliest means I can give, is that instead of bringing up arms hastily, we should simply sit back and observe, then make conclusions when all the smoke has cleared via the massive pile of rumors that will be compiling over the next couple of weeks and the edition has had time to settle in. We, especially myself, had consistently jumped to conclusions many, many times since our initial reveal back in November. Some were warranted (Fiendbloods and Shalaxi Helbane such harder now), while others were too hasty (twinsouls can actually deal a lot of damage despite not having rend).
Under the hidden content tabs are two list I've concocted from the updated points and the new rules; I hope this sheds some light on two ways we can potentially play or build lists. You guys are much better then me at building lists, as I mostly field units I like the look of in terms of sculpt; there are probably far more optimal ways to play the army and these lists are just for fun. I'm unsure how much the emerald swarm will cost, however if it increases too much then I will replace the unit of slickblades with something else, most likely a unit of fiends.
SpoilerSlaanesh List #1
Lurid Haze- 3 cp a turn, 4 once per battle
1990/2000
Warlord Battalion
- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact
Heroes:
Glutos- 475
- Spell: Judgement of Excess
Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Oil of Exultation
- Spell: Dark Delusions
Lord of Pain- 155
General #2
Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
Triumph: Inspired
Batteline:
Twinsouls x 5- 185
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 180
Painbringers x 10- 320
Daemonettes x 10 - 140
Linebreakers-
Slickblades x 5- 235
Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (50)
Wheels of Excruciation (100)
Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess
SpoilerSlaanesh List #2
Invaders- 3 cp a turn (Rod, General, Beginning of Turn) 4 first round (Warlord Battalion)
1990/2000
Warlord Battalion
- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact
Heroes:
Glutos- 475
- Spell: Judgement of Excess
Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
- Spell: Dark Delusions
Lord of Pain- 155
General #2
Command Trait: Glory Hog
Artifact: Vial of Manticore Venom
Triumph: Inspired
Batteline:
Twinsouls x 5- 185
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 180
Painbringers x 10- 320
Daemonettes x 10- 140
Linebreakers-
Slickblades- 235
Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (50)
Wheels of Excruciation (100)
Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess
As I mentioned, I won't play until a month into the edition, to give myself a better outlook on where the meta stands after all the smoke and debris clears after the core rules drop. In the meantime, I'm going to keep my head down and an eye on the other armies in the game, seeing how much they increase in points and what other important changes may happen as well. If it seems like we got very end of the stick, all hope isn't lost. I have a feeling there will still be ways to have fun with the army, just not at a super competitive level.-
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Yep, I’m officially done with the game for a while. Thanks, GW. You took our hard-worked survey and three it out the window. Just goes to show that they give little ****** about the players, and only care about sales.
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I’m very excited about the new edition, and from reading the rules I feel that GW was able to address a number of problems that AoS second edition had. I’m particularly happy about how the new Command Point system works, and the new core battalions being a standard that is available to everyone.
I’m still unsure if the benefits of going second will be enough to offset the advantage of getting priority: I have a feelings it’s going to be very dependent on the army being played. OBR, from example, don’t use command points and wouldn’t benefit from receiving the more CP if they go second, and would be in a much better position if they were to go first.
As a side note, I’m both a Slaanesh and Khorne player; I was pretty disappointed with HoS’ initial release back in February, but now I’m pretty excited to be putting some Slaanesh mortals on the tabletop. I’m really surprised at how the edition has already benefited Slaanesh so much, and this doesn’t take into account the rumored point increases for everyone else which excludes HoS. Now I’m just waiting to see if they improve BoK, hopefully they do a few warscroll rewrites to make Bloodwarriors and a couple of other units legitimate options compared to the far superior StD units.
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On 6/14/2021 at 5:06 PM, Enoby said:
I like this list
Only things to add are whether Lurid Haze is worth it in this list compared to Glory Hog for some extra CP. It doesn't look like anything will benefit massively from a teleport but it may well benefit from a likely two extra CP a turn from Glory Hog (granted one is just an extra inspiring presence). The extra +1 to save is nice, but with mystic shield also being +1 to save and the generic CA existing, I'm not sure if you'll get the necessary CP to use it often. Also means your extra artifact could give the shardspeaker two casts
The other thing is whether you want the Painbringers in two units of 5 instead; the save would have to be shared around, but you'd have more board coverage and depravity, as well as a higher defences from no carry over damage.
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Also, while there's contention on whether Glutos gets a spell lore (day 1 FAQ issue I'm sure), I very much like the utility the generic lore gives. Specifically, flying Slickblades or even flying Sigvald (say goodbye to hidden heroes). Good from the Epitome, and if they get all spells then they do some decent damage with Flaming Weapon on their 9 attacks. Moment of Glory (its real name escapes me for some reason), gives them 9 attacks at 3/3/-1/2.
Also, the 5+ ward sage artifact on a KoS is looking very nice...
Thanks for the feedback! I’m going to experiment with the list once I get the chance; first I’ll need to finish painting my Slaanesh stuff before I jump into the game again. I feel that command points are going to have a much bigger impact on the game, especially since the new cam and abilities are pretty awesome. Units of 2x5 Painbringers will give more depravity, and with the number of CP I generate I think it will be sufficient enough to buff. I’m wrapping my head around all the new rules because of how much utility our army got from the new rules, and it’s a lot to take in. I still really like the idea of 6 fiends infiltrating in from the side of the board to give some early pressure, and with they’re high movement they can quickly flank into the enemy back line or cause some painful disruption.
I agree with the spell lore, flying slickblades and Sigvald are going to be a thing. It’s expensive, but will be pretty funny to see if it’s pulled off, especially if Glutos flies across the map.
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I read over the rules, and I am super excited to give it a try! I modified my previous list because from what I read, the battalions do not cost points; I got rid of the mesmerize mirror so that the two wizard can control both endless spells, and added a unit of slickblades for additional damage or flanking potential.
Let me know what you guys think of the list, and if I missed anything or messed up somewhere; I believe this army generates 3 cp per turn but I’m unsure if I misinterpreted the rules.
The theory behind the list is that Glutos moves up the center with the Lord of Pain, Painbringers, and Emerald Swarm to hold the middle, and the blissbarb archers either follow behind or go to the side to hold a backfield objective while generating depravity. The Twinsouls and the Shardspeaker move on the flank to either catch lightly armored units or to help with the mid in case things get dicey; the Shardspeaker casts the Wheels (only a casting value of 5!) to get a +3 save. The Fiends come in from the side of the board, while the Slickblades either tag along with them via infiltration or go wherever they are needed.
I feel that the shooting, mixed with the wheels, will be suffice to generate depravity early on, and there will be plenty of casting and CP in the late game to buff my frontlines and maintain the list’s survivability through the game.
Slaanesh List- Lurid Haze- 3, cp a turn, 4 once per battle
1990/2000
Warlord Battalion
- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact
Heroes:
Glutos- 400
- Spell: Judgement of Excess
Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Oil of Exultation
- Spell: Dark Delusions
Lord of Pain- 150
General #2
Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
Triumph: Inspired
Batteline:
Twinsouls x 5- 170
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 160
Painbringers x 10- 300
Linebreakers-
Fiends x 6- 360
Slickblades x 5- 200
Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (50)
Wheels of Excruciation (50)
Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess
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7 hours ago, Enoby said:
Just had a rough game against Orruk Warclans using what we know of 3rd rules
Ended in a round 5 draw and summoned 2 keepers throughout the game. I made some very big mistakes - if I'd have not messed up with a twinsoul charge into the mawkrusha, I reckon I would have clinched it because that Krusha was tearing through my army.
My list:
Invaders host
Keeper of Secrets
Dexcessa (general 1)
Lord of Pain (general 2, Glory Hog, Rod of Misrule)
Battleline
Painbringers ×5
Blissbarb archers ×11
Twinsouls ×10
Daemonettes ×10
Other
Slickblades ×5
Slickblades ×5
Wheels of Excruciation
Off the bat, I will admit I left the wheels to the side and forgot about them. This is totally on me because I wasn't paying attention at the start of the hero phase.
In addition to that, I made a massive mistake in sending in the twinsouls into the Mawkrusha which put itself on a 2+ save. Very bad idea on my behalf as I just forgot about that ability. It's an absolute monster, and looking back I think it needed the KoS and Slickblades on it - though I can see the Krusha going up in points.
Some thoughts:
Dexcessa did quite a lot of damage (12 on a charge), but had a very nasty 8 mortal wounds to the face and crumpled turn 1. Though I think I misused them with where I went
KoS (all three of them) were the stars of the show. Their healing is incredible - d3 from the hero ability, d3/6 from their claw, d3 from their spell. I think they healed 25+ wounds between them, so they need to be killed first turn.
Lord of Pain didn't do anything besides sit on an objective and hold an artifact - but that's all I wanted
Blissbarbs were actually surprisingly good. They did a lot of damage and killed a decent chunk with the +1 to hit. I'll investigate a unit of 33...
Painbringers, actually managed to tank three turns of the megaboss. They didn't do much damage but I was very surprised by their tankiness - will look at taking more
Twinsouls, I screwed up with them as I said. Had a brain ****** and just forgot the 2+ save. They did roll 21 wounds, so against a proper target they should have done much much more if I'd have used them properly.
Slickblades, very fast and did good damage, but was a mistake to put them into brutes. I think I'd have swapped one unit out for an epitome
Overall, we felt much stronger. The depravity generation was very good as the first turn charge gave me the chance to summon a KoS turn 2. Command point generation was absolutely fantastic despite getting a 1 first turn on the rod of misrule. Warclans have always been (imo) one of our hardest opponents because they hit so hard, but with Locus of Diversion and command abilities, we did very well.
We used one of the new battleplans
Definitely a lot to learn, but very fun. Planning ahead is going to be paramount.
And this also doesn’t include the theoretical point increases for Orruks and the rest of the armies in the game. If there are some decent point increases across the board, and we’re untouched, will be in a good spot and will most likely be within the same power level as many other recently released armies.
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In preparation for Aos 3.0, I’ve derived this list designed to generate depravity while also being relatively tanky; it will also give us a lot CP to use on the new command abilities that have been teased. It’s a bit spell-heavy, but with the changes to endless spells I feel that it will give the list a somewhat reliable means of generating MWs and depravity. I’m not sure if the Supreme Symberites detachment will be allowed in match play, and if it isn’t I’ll use the Warlord detachment instead. I personally can’t wait to try the +3 rerollable save that the Painbringers can utilize in addition to the -1 hit buff that Glutos brings.
The Painbringers stick with Glutos, the Lord of Pain, and the emerald swarm to hold the center of the board, while the twinsouls and the Shardspeaker move together to hit lightly armored troops or tie up anything that would be a hassle. The fiends infiltrate from the side of the board to get into the back lines early. For summons, I’ll probably bring Daemonettes to hold objectives or get stuck in, or an Infernal Enrapturess if there’s a lot of spellcasting; the fiends -1 to casting mixed with the rerolls from the Enrapturess will make the opponent’s casting attempts somewhat difficult.
Lurid Haze2000/2000
Reinforcements: 2/4, 1/1
Battalions:
Supreme Symberites (?), or the warlord battalion depending on how much it’s priced- 150
Heroes:
Glutos- 400Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Oil of Exultation
Lord of Pain- 150
General #2
Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
Batteline:
Twinsouls x 5- 170
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 160
Painbringers x 10- 300
Beasts-
Fiends x 6- 360
Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (50)
Wheels of Excruciation (50)
Mesmerizing Mirror (60)
Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess
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11 hours ago, Enoby said:
Okay, I've got the time to go through some changes. I think, at the moment we have a good idea of what's going on with AoS 3. Of course, there could be a huge difference when we get the full rules, but by the sound of it there have been no leaks that are very scary sounding. I'm going to go through the unconfirmed leaks too, but if they end up being false or not what we thought, then just discount them or glean what you can.
Command points
Command points are now not something that can be stored, but are now much easier to generate. The ways we currently know that are generic to all factions are getting 1 or 2 at the beginning of the round (whether you go first or second), an extra 1 here when the general is on the battlefield, they can also get 1 point from heroic inspiration either on a 4+ or a 2+ (easier when the general is alive). Finally, you can get a command point from the warlord battalion or the command entourage battalion. This means, in a single battle round, any army (going first) can get 6 (1 for the turn, 1 for the general, 2 for getting heroic inspiration off twice, and 2 for taking both battalions and gaining both points on the same turn). If we are realistic, heroic inspiration will only go off one out of two times (with the general alive), and we will only count one battalion because it's unlikely someone would burn both command points at once, if they even take two battalions at all. So realistically, an army is getting between 2 and 4 (based on whether they want to take the battalion and whether they want to spend their hero abilities on trying to get a command point).
On its own, looking outside of hosts, Slaanesh doesn't have much in the way of command point generation. But if we take a look at the invaders host, that all changes. The invaders host opens up three ways to get command points: rod of misrule, glory hog, and a general dying. Not only that, having three generals means we have three chances to not have our general die; in addition, if one general does die then we get the benefit of improved heroic inspiration as well as keeping the command point from having a general. Finally, Dexcessa gives a free command point effectively. The absolute maximum we can get in a battle round when going first is 14+2 free ( for the turn, 1 for the general, 2 for getting heroic inspiration off twice, and 2 for taking both battalions and gaining both points on the same turn, rod of misrule gives 3, glory hog procs both turns for 2, and all three generals die + Dexcessa's free point). We should not aim or expect this at all; this is totally unrealistic and probably means something has gone wrong if it happens. If we look at it realistically, in a turn with Dex where we are looking for command points (and remember, it will be a choice - we have control of how many we want to try to go for), we will probably get 7-8+free (1 for general, 1 for turn, 1 for rod of misrule, 2 for Glory Hog - enemies will be dying left and right, more on this later - 1 for the battalion, 1 for heroic inspiration, possibly one for a general death, and the free one from Dex). If we are not looking for command points (if we just don't seem to need them this turn), we should get 5+2 free.
This means that our turns where we are not going out of our way to get any extra command points, we gain pretty much as many command points as a normal army who is trying their hardest to get as many CP as possible.
Please note, we really need to see when command points disappear. If they disappear right at the end of the battleround then glory hog is less important as it will proc at the end of the battle round and so not see much as much benefit. It is still a free cp for inspiring presence though, and it means if we see an enemy unit die we can go more all out on command abilities in that phase, knowing we'll have one spare for inspiring presence.
Final opinion: Excellent in Invaders, Average in other hosts
New command abilities
Of course, we could get as many points as we want, but that won't matter if we can't use them on anything useful.
The generic command abilities known/predicted are: All Out Attack, All out Defence, Inspiring Presence, At the Double, Forward to Victory, Unleash Hell, and Redeploy. I'll go through each of these.
It is important to note that, when we're getting 7 command abilities in invaders to use a battle round, we can pick and choose what we'd like here
All out attack: This one is really nice for our troops, especially Twinsouls. A unit of 10 of them will output the following on average: 9.7 vs 2+, 19.4 vs 3+, 29 vs 4+, 38.8 vs a 5+, 48.5 vs a 6+, and 58 vs a -. Combined with the shardspeaker, we can get +1 to hit and +1 to wound - this means daemonettes having 2 attacks at 3/3/-1/1, and importantly can be summoned in and still benefit from these buffs. Great command ability, especially when concerning the blissbarb archers - a unit of 33 of them with 2 attacks each at 3/3/-1/1 in the shooting phase so it doesn't stop it in the combat phase? Yes please
All out defence: This one isn't quite as good for us, but that doesn't mean bad at all. It means we can get some nice defence against shooting units. With Dexcessa, we can act like they have a 3+ save in the combat phase unless we choose not to (or to give it to someone else). As mentioned in the article, painbringers on a 3+ rerolling save is very nice, and they can actually hit back unlike chaos warriors, but putting chaos warriors on a 3+ rerolling save isn't a bad idea at all. And of course Glutos will be a massive tank as always, with that -1 to hit adding to that annoyingness to budge.
Inspiring presence: In all honestly, this one has the chance to hurt us, but it hurts everyone. However we can't deny that our mortal units struggle with poor bravery values. However, on the other hand, we do have a few ways around bravery: Glutos's third battle round, Syll'Esske, Dexcessa, and Battle Rapture. Battle rapture is really good because it gives you knowledge before arriving at the battleshock phase, so you know what to save for. Syll'Esske can definitely benefit from the smaller board size too as they'll get more in their bubble, and we get a tonne of command points so we can always keep one spare. If we're honest, Dex's ability is a bit useless unless you're running very large blocks of daemonettes and don't want to risk the banner. Glutos takes more time to get going so isn't super reliable.
At the double: this is fine... we have a few options to run and charge, but not that many to be honest. The one key use I can see it for is for Dex to give it to themselves for a lovely 18" flying move for a big flank
Forward to victory: As good as it ever was, though only being able to use it once does provide a niche use for scarlet cavalcade as it allows the more units to benefit. A nerf if we can only use it once, but not one I'm particularly worried about for reasons we'll go into later, as well as many of our units getting rerolling charge for free anyway
Unleash hell: there are only three units that really benefit from this for us - Synessa, Blissbarb Archers, and Blissbarb Seekers. Other than that, this one could really hurt us depending on the army. Us taking some big damage before we can even get into combat means we're going to have to be really careful about what we charge. On the other hand. if we have faith in Dexcessa, they can charge over a screen and put an end to the shooting unit so they stop doing it. It is very important to consider the Masque here as she keeps that lovely 6" pile in and so can tie up troublesome shooters.
Redeploy: this is interesting, but I think we need to know a bit more before really giving a full idea on it. It increases a charge by d6" effectively; it hurts us, but we can get so close to most units that it shouldn't bother us too much. It could also be helpful, but besides trying to rescue a hero out of shooting LoS I think this could be pretty niche.
Important to note is that, from all of our info we have, units can use their own command abilities on themselves so the penalty from invaders may not matter than much if the generals do end up getting too close, but try to avoid this.
Overall, these command abilities are looking nice for us. They're not quite as good as a double pile in, but we won't always have a keeper and sometimes we need to kill something first pile in so an immediate +1 to hit is better. In addition, the +1 to save not being locked behind Lurid Haze is very nice as it gives us more options. I should note that these command abilities are good for pretty much everyone, except factions that have access to similar things already. However, in Invaders as we've discussed we can cherry pick the best command ability at every phase and use pretty much what we want, allowing us to be very adaptive.
Final opinion: Very good in Invaders, average in other hosts
Endless spells
While we currently cannot comment on the generic endless spells, we can look at our own. First things first, every faction who can use endless spells will benefit from this - more damage and more control is better, after all! However, we have two advantages that others do not: our allegiance ability directly benefits from all endless spells activate in the hero phase. While most other factions just get some extra damage, we now get depravity points from these endless spells where we often didn't before as it was not in a phase that they did damage, and we get double the chance to do damage. In addition to that, so long as it remains unchanged, we have the Wheels of Excruciation. This is major: let's say that an opponent has four units within 12" of each other (very likely to happen for reasons we'll go into later); we run across them, almost certainly do 1 damage at least, get to do this twice, for 8 depravity - also known as a unit of fiends for free.
Final opinion: Very good
Coherency
Let's get this out of the way, fiends are hurt by this unless understrengthing a unit is better than previously. However, on the whole this benefits us in two major ways. Besides daemonettes and marauders, we rarely used any units at a large size, and both of these are on 25mm bases and so are less hurt by coherency because they can reach over ranks. Twinsouls are good because they have that 2" reach, allowing them to get 10 in easily while still remaining in coherency.
Importantly we often lack in defence besides a few units, so large units not being able to attack before we get to attack them is very important.
Final opinion: Good
Reinforcement points
Overall, I don't think these hurt us very much. We don't have some unit that we want spam and we can get around these restrictions through summoning. Also, we won't be hit as often by mega buffed large hordes, which always used to hurt us.
More importantly, like coherency, this pushes people towards MSU and we just love that. With endless spells and even chariots, we can share pain around a lot of units to get big depravity every turn. I reckon we can quite easily earn a KoS every turn without really trying for it
Final opinion: Very good
Hero abilities
These benefit everyone, but many armies don't have a good hero/monster option. For example, Tzeentch can heal their Lord of Change but that's pretty minor when they don't really have much of a combat role. A Bloodthirster can have a Their Finest Hour, but they only have a 10" move so can't always determine a charge (more on this later). Like before, we'll go through each hero ability.
Heroic leadership: as mentioned, good in invaders where we can have a dead general and keep our current general. Mostly to be used if we calculate we need more command points - the filler ability.
Heroic willpower: we're unlikely to need this, and tbh it's a bit of a nerf as we don't want to lose our endless spells and this makes it easier to do
Their finest hour: you have to love this on any of hour fast heroes, probably best used on the KoS (who has dumped their artefact for a +1 if we have a spare, or just used a +1 to hit command ability) before it first turn charges the enemy lines, but also great on late game Dex and Sigvald when he gets himself in there. Very very nice for us
Heroic recovery: we have very good healing already, but one of Glutos's main drawbacks is that you need a daemon to come along with him to give him a hand, which isn't always reliable. Now, if you will Glutos to survive he will do so. Healing 2d3 a battleround with a 3+ (or 2+ save), - 1 to hit him, and a 5+ ward? Yes please. Also helps keep Sigvald alive - with his 4+ ward save, each of his wounds is worth 2 effectively, so this means every healed wound is also worth 2. Also, our heroes all have high bravery so no need to worry there - Glutos is in range of himself
Overall, we can make good use of these and like command abilities they give us more options. Our battletome doesn't have many inbuilt choices, but that's now supplemented by these.Overall opinion: Good
Monster abilities
Unlike some factions, all of our in book monsters are also heroes, so we gain double the benefit. Of the monsters we have access to, the Keeper and Dex are both reasonably priced and do good damage now we can buff them a lot. Archaon is an absolute tank and murder machine, but what's new.
Roar: this will hurt us a lot, in all honesty, but we have the speed to try avoid or tie up monsters. We really like command abilities, so being able to be denied them is going to hurt (esp on the double pile in). That said, we can only be hit by this once per turn, so there's not a massive issue, and we can use it on others if we're worried about them using a command ability
Stomp: Nice and basic. It helps up the damage of some of our monsters, and as has been mentioned before, Synessa can overwatch for D6 MWs and then stomp of D3 which can finish some units off outright. Also nice to drop a stomp on a unit that we won't attack to rack in depravity
Titanic Duel: probably hurts more than it helps we we usually have good to hit values compared to most monsters, and we can get +1 to hit through a few other ways. Our monsters also don't do well when slugged in the face, but at least our commonplace -1 to hit can help mitigate this
Smash to rubble: because of our speed, and especially Dexcessa, I think this is a really great utility tool for us as a way to take out a key piece of the opponent's army. Our fane can get got, but our fane is more like a 'decent little extra' rather than our game plan, so losing it isn't the end of the world.
Overall opinion: Above average (maybe good)
Battleplans
We haven't seen all of them yet, but from the look of it these battleplans are pretty simple. They're hard to read, but I can tell that we are seeing 18" deployment gap which is fantastic for us. We can first turn charge very easily with most of our army, and many armies cannot. Armies with 10" max move still have an unreliable 8" charge, and their troops are often on 5" move. This means that they can't reach us first turn but we can reach them, meaning we have an advantage either way.
Also, I can't see it on the battleplans I'm reading, but it looks like there are no bonus points for meta tags (battleline etc) so now our summoning units are just as effective as capturing the objectives as before.
There is also a rumour than monsters and heroes will count for more models when taking an objective, which is generally good for us
Overall opinion: Very good
Points increases
It is rumoured that all armies are going up about 10%. Whether this is good for us or not depends on whether we are going to get boosted, or if we already have been. Until then, we can't say
Overall opinion: Dependant, good or potentially very bad
Hit and wound capping
Probably overall bad. While we're not losing any buffs, we are losing some utility on debuffs - there's little reason to give look our sir to Synessa, or for Dex to care about the overwatch penalty as it's already inbuilt. The one benefit is that we don't have to worry about anyone buffing themselves sky high; also acquiescence gives rerolling 1s to hit, which seems to have become much rarer now
Overall opinion: Bad
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Overall, I think AoS is much better for us compared to other armies when we used the Invaders host, and generally better for us when we use the other hosts.
So long as people haven't let the turbulent reaction blind everyone to our potential, I think we have a very high chance to reach high tournament placings, but also have more engaging gameplay with the new hero abilities, monster abilities and very importantly command points and abilities. We will remain as a finesse faction with no instant win button, but now we have options to buff our units considerably and depravity points have received a massive accidental buff that I think will lead to a very tool box faction where we can select a different buff and summon every phase, able to adapt to the enemy with ease.
I hope this helps sum up the good and bad of the new changes
I agree with everything you’ve said, and I’m also super excited for 3rd edition. If there are point increases across the board, then I have a feeling we’re going to be in a great spot with the rumored changes you’ve addressed (assuming that we don’t get point increases ourselves and it depends on how much the increases are for the other armies).
I feel that something Slaanesh, as well as a many other chaos armies, need to be considering is how reinforcements are going to affect mass chaos warriors and marauders. It’s going to be a far more costly taking big blocks of chaos warriors to hold objectives, or marauders to deal damage. If warriors go up in price, taking them with additional reinforcements will take up a big chunk of one’s army, and may not be worth it in many lists.
I’m also wondering how much the core battalions will cost, assuming you have to pay for them, which can be a big factor in determining how they’ll be incorporated. I can definitely see some invader lists being super strong in terms of command point generation using the warlord battalion by synergizing 5-10 man blocks of either painbringers or twinsouls to maximize damage via command abilities.
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I haven’t seen anyone mention this yet, but for the ability icon ‘Magnificent’ it says you can pick an enchantment; anyone have any ideas what this could be? Unit upgrades? Additional special abilities?
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I’ve been a couple of days away and have drifted apart from some of the recent rumors, but looking at the overall collection of whispers of what’s to come has given me some decent room to speculate on how the Kruelboyz will play.
Taking into account much earlier rumors, it was mentioned that they will be an ambush-themed army, contrasting with the straight-forward Orruk warclan approach of running as quickly into the enemy’s face as possible to smash and bash; very fitting considering that the Kruelboyz are more aligned to Mork. There have also been some teasers for an updated Wyvern, and some sort of slug/swamp named creature; this is also in addition to the large silhouettes in the background of the official images that look to be either a type of troll or an elite infantry choice. This, and the rumor that we will be receiving some sort of wolf calvary unit as well.
My guess is that the army is going to look very diverse on the tabletop, with small units of hobgoblins and kruelboy orruks to hold objectives or take in large swarms; the calvary will be an alternative which can (hopefully) be taken as a troop choice of a boss on the big monster is taken. The real meat of the army is going to be in the form of large swamp monsters and trolls, with heroes either providing support or acting as best sticks, with certain ambush mechanics allowing said monsters or blobs to close in quickly. It’s going to be a semi-glass cannon army with high MW potential and generally lower than average saves, but high wounds and toughness.
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Physically, Dex is a lot smaller than the much more muscular Keeper; now I can see why she was pointed at 280 and given 10 wounds.
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1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:
I believe the models on the mist in the Hobgrots shoot weren't revealed (red arrow in the picture bellow). They look really muscular, which doesn't fit anything we saw so far.
I’m hoping we get a Nob/Brute equivalent of a Kruelboy, something akin to the awesome Killaboss models. I lm also wondering if the nee Kruelboyz get larger the more they fight and win, similar to the traditional Orruks; it does seem that the Killaboss is much larger then his compatriots.
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1 minute ago, Zappgrot said:
Well it's verry likely that the army will also have non battle line units So i would say HIGH.
I really like the anatomy of the new Orruks, I’m just not a fan of the shaggy lack of armor. When looking to build a new army, I always look towards the more elite-armored units for inspiration; I have a ton of Bloodwarriors and Painbringers for both my Khorne and Slaanesh lists respectively. If an elite infantry/monster unit comes out with very similar armor to the Killaboss’s, then I’d be very hooked.
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What do you guys think are the chances of seeing a more elite version of the Gutrippa battleline? Something more akin to the killaboss in ascetics, but smaller; the Orruk Brute equivalents for the Kruelboyz.
The Rumour Thread
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
If KruelBoyz get a giant gator, when I get the chance I’ll convert them into a Florida Man army, with meth and crack-themed bases.