James101
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Posts posted by James101
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8 hours ago, Indecisive said:
Reading through the balance discussion, yeah, Kraggy definitely has some hard downsides and doesn't offer much to an army or that much presence to threaten an entire board.
But I do wish people would consider asymmetrical balance more often when reading people's concerns. If you've got no ranged for example in your faction, you have to try and brawl with him. He's almost immune to magic. His save is high so if you're in a faction without access to high rend or mortal spam you're in for a bad time.
It sort of becomes a NPE discussion. Sometimes something doesn't effect everyone equally, if some faction gets hardcountered or has no answer for something, they aren't wrong to complain a bit.
Sort of a general thing, where one thing isn't so bad if you consider all possible opponents, but a subsection of the opponents are really hardpressed to do something. The negative experience of bad match-ups.
If you've got tarpits ready, you can bog him down easily what with his move and no fly.
If you've got mortal spam, ideally at range. You may not 100-0 him fast enough to save some units, but you can weaken him to render him impotent.
Problems begin if you show up without those options.Just curious, but how big is the list of armies with no access to any of; tar pits, mortal spam, shooting, or high rend? This can’t be a large list surely?
Kragnos’ biggest issue is that he basically is an OTT version of what destruction already does well. Whereas other centrepieces like Naggy/Archaon/Kroak etc bring things to their faction which the rest of the army doesn’t have.
Kragnos is, ultimately, a suped up FLoSH/Cabbage. He isn’t shoring up a weakness. He’s piling onto an area of strength.
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14 hours ago, Gutlord said:
That makes more sense now, cheers mate.....so basically roll to save as normal, then apply the rend and determine the damage 👍😉
Yeah the point is that the rend is actually applied to the dice roll rather than as a modifier to the save. So if you have a save of 5+ and a tend of -1 what this is actually doing is meaning rolls of 5 fail (because they become 5-1=4). But because you apply the rend to the dice roll, you’re still entitled to the roll itself
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21 hours ago, Kramer said:
Thoughts? For a 32 player tournament. If I win 2/5 I'm happy.
Personally I wanted to have something to threaten the backfield and something to threaten long range for when I unavoidably get turn 1. But I just can't fit everything in. I'm also thinking of this 'goofy' list. My Four threat phalanx:
Personally I think you need an extra Ironblaster to capitalise on the Trophy Rack and Underguts ability. I’d drop the Gnoblars to save 100 points and switch from Goremand to Gutguard to trim the extra 20 points and get a third cannon in.
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44 minutes ago, rosa said:
Thanx a lot...
Although I don't have better arguments, I still disagree. Maybe it will get faqed later.
It’s pretty clear to be honest. The allegiance abilities say all BCR priests “know and may chant one Everwinter prayer” (or words to that effect). The Huskard on TT warscroll then says “knows and may chant one of the following prayers“ and then lists Winters Endurance and Winters Strength.
So you can chant one everwinter (which are in the allegiance abilities) and one warscroll prayer. To be clear, you couldn’t chant both the warscroll prayers (for example)
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6 minutes ago, Kramer said:
Thanks for the heads up. Because I was a dummy, couldn’t find it, became convinced that we didn’t get them.
turned out I wa looking in the commentaryEnglish FAQ. Final page is pitched battle profiles and has asterisks prior to the Thundertusk entries. For reference they are now 270/300/350 for Riders, Huskards, Frostlord respectively.
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FAQs are up and basically as per the rumours. Only change for us Ogors is some (imo not enough) reductions for the three thundertusk units.
So I think it’s basically no changes.
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Does anybody know what the ETA is for the update for the post-Cities factions who weren’t expressly updated in GHB2020?
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Yeah the command group still count as having the weapon option. They just don’t look like it from how their built (you can’t give the standard bearer miniature either an iron fist or the second weapon because he’s holding the pole). So in a unit of 12 you only have 5 which look like they have a second weapon / iron fist. The whole squad of 12 counts as if they have them though.
Of course, you can just optionally build less standard bearers and musicians. Which is more flexible (as easier to then field them in units of 3) but slightly worse when you run them as a 12
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5 hours ago, Ciotola said:
ty all .
this is my start :
2 unit of 6 gluttons (or 1 unit of 9 and 1 of 3) 480 pt
1 tyrant (possible conversion to butcher) 140/160 pt
4 kitty 80 pt
extra cp 50 pt
tot 750/770 pt
now I will have to read the manual to understand the rules and how to equip the leader, if you have any advice they are welcome on a 750 pt starting list to be expanded to a 1k points
edit : how do i dress my gluttons?
all with double weapon or ironfist?
can i play a mixed unit to have a couple of ironfists and the rest double weapon?i was thinking of converting 4 glutton to ironguts, buying a body on ebay.
list with ironguts:
leader :
butcher 140 pt
9 glutton 360pt
4 ironguts 220 pt
4 kitty 80 pt
800 pt+ another hero on foot-> 940/960 pt
You either want to run the gluttons as 4x3 or 1x12. The big block of twelve gets the horde discount so is only 400 points it also gets mortal wounds on a 4+. The four units of three allows more flexibility and chances to proc the charge mortal wounds
In terms of loadout it’s all one or the other. Generally speaking iron fists in smaller units and double weapons in larger units. That said you don’t end up building many of either in certain blocks. In a 12 man unit you can run 4 standard bears, 2 musicians and a leader. So there’s only 5 of the 12 man unit with the weapon load out
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First time on the contract. I pledge to finish the Mawtribes half of a Feast of Blood - Tyrant, 6 Gluttons, 2 Leadies and an Ironblaster.
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Trying to work out if this list is insanity of genius. Certainly different! I suspect the answer is that there are other factions who simply do this better and if I want to do this I should be playing not Ogors.
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15 minutes ago, MKsmash said:
We're just talking about an entirely Gutbusters list (I think). While that might be the case, I don't know if a FLoSH is worth it outside of Boulderhead. Ehh, probably is.
It absolutely is worth it outside of Boulderhead. It’s the single best unit in the book. And not even close. Running full gutbusters is a mistake if you’re list optimising. If you’re shooting for fluff then, sure, go just with the fatboys. But for an optimised list you definitely need a FLoSH in there.
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7 minutes ago, Kramer said:
Everything is super clear and well put. It was just this sentence, that I was unsure off.
I think the only glutton specific buff is the blood Gullit command Ability? Which is pretty good!
but I think I the end, the discussion is super interesting but we won’t convince the other because we have good experiences with our preferences. Still good to know the other side of the coin.
This is actually a very good point. Depending on your opponents you might want tailor your list or take more of an all comers list.
for me I like the tournament style: take all comers and scenarios lists. So that definitely plays into my choices. I happily the utility of the leadbelchers rather than the second block of 12 gluttons.I mean, if we’re talking about having already spent 400 points on a set of Gluttons and have another 400 points to spend elsewhere then it should be on a FLoSH instead of either of these two choices anyway so the discussion is fairly moot...
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3 hours ago, Kramer said:
Not Snarky at all. First off, they are a utility unit and they have always worked well for me. So the maths isn't that important, but you did leave out the re-rolls on the save. Big part of my argument that you ignored
The reason I don't find much value in the mathhammer side of things is that it leaves out so, so much. Damage potential only calculates things in a optimum vacuum. Ignoring variables such as: do you really get 12 Ogors within 1"? Or 10 for that matter? How many survive a punch if struck first? Can you get them where they are close to that optimum vacuum? Do you get buffs, debuffs etc in there? How long can you maintain the Monster charge minimum of 8 ogors in a unit? Battleline/Battalion requirements? Etc.
Some off these will favour the Gluttons over the Leadbelchers and vice versa.That' the reason I didn't argue taking 2 units of leadbelchers over Gluttons. But rather one unit of each, so you have that versatility.
But let's do some math then with the re-rolls:
First off it isn't great but it's an extra 2-5 wounds against a three up, 3-6 against a four up, and 3-8 against a five up. All without re-rolls though. My napkin math tells me that the 6's to hit will average half a hit extra per ogor, with a 3+ wounds means 4 extra saves for your opponent. So i'm fine with striking them against each other. Shooting is a bit more damaging but only happens half the turns.
Again my argument is that's it's super useful to have the utility of the leadbelchers and the gluttons. So as per my original example vs a 3+ save re-rolling fails.
Leadbelchers getting in 10:
Gluttons getting in all 12:
Combat Calculator doesn't allow me to take in account 're-roll fails happens before modifiers' vs higher saves.
So, now i'm getting my snark on
Clearly, Leadbelchers are superior in melee combat... if you get them into the right units.
Now I still maintain these calculations are a bit useless because: Getting 12 in? 10 for that matter? Rarely happens in my games. So that's going to throw things around massively. Not to mention all the others variables like buffs, debuffs, extra round of shooting, spiking sixes to save or to hit.
But for me, if anything, the maths prove that there is a place for Gluttons and Leadbelchers in the same Gutbuster focussed lists. So that's why I take Gluttons and Leadbelchers. They are superior to each other in different situations. Having options is King.
And yeah, if you just looking for damage potential Ironguts win against everything except the Frostlord on stonehorn 😂But then you end up with the Doom & Darkness list. 2 stonehorns, 8 ironguts, a butcher to buff and Hunter with cats to screen and ambush.
@Kimbo I'm not arguing there is a clear winner for you, all things from in game match up to battalion requirements can change the use of both. But they are worth testing out imo.
Plus consider a unit which is camping on an objective. If the unit is Gluttons, then likelihood is it does absolutely nothing while camping the objective. The Leadbelchers unit is more likely to do something in that scenario. Granted I’m not sure I’d want a unit of 10/12 for camping in either scenario. But generally a small unit for camping objectives, I’d rather it was leadies than gluttons.
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4 hours ago, sorokyl said:
It is super easy for them to change the point values and warscroll of the bonegrinder to make sense.
I bet 300-400 points is about right for the new model.Plus, if they’re allies, you couldn’t take them in a 2,000 point list if they’re more than 400 points right (unless their specific rules say otherwise that is)?
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1 hour ago, Sephiroth00055 said:
I watched some of Doom & Darknesses videos, and came up with this list:
Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes
- Mawtribe: Bloodgullet
Mortal Realm: Shyish
Leaders
Butcher (140)
- General
- Tenderiser
- Command Trait: Nice Drop of the Red Stuff!
- Artefact: Splatter-cleaver
- Lore of Gutmagic: Blood Feast
- Bloodgullet 2nd Spell: Molten Entrails
Slaughtermaster (140)
- Lore of Gutmagic: Ribcracker
- Bloodgullet 2nd Spell: Greasy Deluge
Frostlord on Stonehorn (400)
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
- Mount Trait: Metalcruncher
Battleline
12 x Ogor Gluttons (400)
- Pairs of Clubs or Blades
12 x Ogor Gluttons (400)
- Pairs of Clubs or Blades
4 x Ironguts (220)
Units
2 x Leadbelchers (80)
Battalions
Goremand (140)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Quicksilver Swords (30)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 147
Not sold on the Quicksilver swords, but I had 40 points left over, and didnt know what to do with them. Let me know what you guys think.
Why is the Butcher holding the Splatter cleaver and the general? I would expect that you want the SM to be closer to your line (due to Spinemarrow and the Butcher hanging back on the Vortex. So by that logic isn’t the SM the better general / SC wielder as he is more likely to be up close to the action?
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On 4/6/2020 at 7:04 PM, NinthMusketeer said:
Personally I feel that sub-faction benefits are good enough these days that they should simply eat your first artifact choice as a cost. Armies with a sub-faction do not receive an initial artifact for free, but can still access them via the normal bonus from battalions. Sub-factions which currently force an artifact choice instead gain that artifact as an option they can pick in addition to the regular ones. Too many armies players are basically forced to pick a sub-faction, because they are strictly stronger than not doing so, which is more restrictive than not having them at all and also ties overall army performance to how strong the VERY inconsistent benefits of sub-factions it happens to have. Adding a more notable cost than 'you have to take this command trait/artifact (which may be as good or better than your other options anyways)' would be far from fixing things but it would at least help.
And before the argument gets made; "that would unfairly penalize sub-factions which are already bad" yes, it would. But that would have little to no effect because people would go from not using them... to still not using them!
As for the original line of discussion involving command traits; IMO allow people to pick a normal command trait instead, but at a cost. Something like "The general may select a command trait off the appropriate table instead, but the army does not receive the normal command point in its first hero phase, and cannot purchase an additional command point in Matched Play."
A lot of this makes sense. The inherent problem at the moment is that factionless is simply worse for almost all armies than picking a sub faction and being in that more limited option space from a strength perspective.
The solution is simply to make factionless more appealing. Either by reducing artefacts for picking a sub faction or by adding a faction wide rule which is lost if you go into a specific sub faction.
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13 hours ago, Frowny said:
Hrogthron seems very strong to me. Remember, a hunter and single dog is already 140, so the trap and gnoblars are only 20 pts.
A single deepstrike is useful for objectives and the 2 small units (wolf and gnobs) seem useful for screens, holding backfield objectives or keeping away deepstrikers.
If I wasn't always making my hunter my general and losing the command trait I would take him without a doubt.
I think he’s awful. For the same 160 I’d rather just run an Icebrow and 2 dogs and lose the Gnoblars
Hrothgorn himself is worse than a Hunter. His ranged attack options are worse as he lacks the spear. He can’t have artefacts dumped onto him and he doesn’t have the Lead the Skal command ability which is situationally okay.
I think I’d rather then second Sabre over the Gnoblars too
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10 hours ago, grimgold said:
Here is what I was thinking:
Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes
Mawtribe: UndergutsLEADERS
Tyrant (160)
- Artefact : Gruesome Trophy Rack
- Big Name : FateseekerHuskard on Stonehorn (320)
- General
- Command Trait : Mass of Scars
- Blood Vulture
- Mount Trait : Black ClatterhornIcebrow Hunter (120)
- Artefact : Gnoblar Blast KegUNITS
4 x Mournfang Pack (280)
- Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers with Iron Fists4 x Mournfang Pack (280)
- Culling Clubs or Prey Hackers with Iron Fists4 x Leadbelchers (160)
BEHEMOTHS
Stonehorn Beastriders (300)
- Ogor Mawtribes Battleline (Beastclaw Raiders General)ARTILLERY
Ironblaster (120)
Ironblaster (120)BATTALIONS
Eurlbad (140)The gruesome trophy rack Buffs the Iron blaster and leadbelchers, and the command trait helps out the iron blasters. It's 6.5 to 7 points of damage per shooting phase just from the iron blasters assuming a 4+ save, and the leadbelchers are icing on the cake. Could you get more mileage out of 560 additional points of BCR? Which would equate to a frostlord on stonehorn, and two four "man" units of frost sabers.
I don’t think the shooting bits in here make up for 8 Sabres and a FLoSH personally. Particularly since you’re getting a worse pair of artefacts and losing a second mount trait etc.
The other problem with that list (even if it’s damage output was comparable which is questionable) is how flimsy it is. Ironblasters are arguably a sub-par unit without the extra shot afforded by the Underguts command ability and trophy rack and all of this goes out the window if the Tyrant is sniper off the board. And against certain lists he absolutely will be. You need to run a Gutguard in my opinion just to keep the Tyrant from being sniped.
Theres also an argument that the command ability to fire an additional shot from the ironblasters is of debatable value from two ironblasters. I think you need a third ironblaster to justify the spend of the CP.
In short, I think the bare minimum Underguts package is 860 points (Tyrant, 4 Ironguts, 3 ironblasters and the Gutguard battalion).
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24 minutes ago, grimgold said:
So what do you guys think of mixing a eurlbad and with an under guts gunline? They seem like the two best Ogor builds, shooting can help soften fight first armies, and you can screen or counter charge with the BCR. I've been trying to make a list work, but it seems like a peas and potatoes thing, your not making your peas better by mixing them, your just making your potatoes worse.
Personally I don’t think it’ll work. I wouldn’t run a Eurlbad if I wasn’t also running a FLoSH or two. And I’m not sure you can squeeze a FLoSH, a Eurlbad and the requisite shooting stuff in the points.
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3 hours ago, sabres1226 said:
Hello,
I have been considering an ogor army since before their new book came out, but have been hesitant to pull the trigger because, well, life. Now that I have some unexpected free time I feel like the time is now. I am trying to figure out the most efficient way to start an ogor army.
I know that 3 beast claw start collecting boxes has been mentioned but I am not certain that I want a full army of BCR. If anyone knows of an alternative that will not break my poor wallet but maybe is a little more flushed out then 3 SC, that would be great to hear!
A whole different question I have that i related to starting an ogor army is, generally how do they play? I have only seen 1-2 battle reports with ogors involved so I haven't been able to grasp their style all that way. I just really like the models haha.
Anyway, I look forward to and appreciate and advice or suggestions,
Thanks much!
If you can pick up a couple of Feast of Bones halves on Ebay then you have the start of an Underguts list. I’m running a 2k list which is basically two FoB boxes, a third Iron Blaster, a FLoSH and a butcher.
It’s fractionally more than the three SC boxes in cost but not by a huge amount (the two FoB are about equivalent to a SC box) so you’ve got the ~£80 of the Ironblaster, FLoSH, butcher versus the £50 of the third SC box. So there’s only about £30 in it.
Whether it’s actually any good is debatable but I think it looks decent on paper and a) has more variety than the triple SC box option and b) is more conducive to expanding in future
EDIT: Attached is the list I end up with.
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2 minutes ago, Malakithe said:
Version 2 of my list. I like this one way more.
Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes
- Mawtribe: Underguts
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Leaders
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Trait: Mass of Scars
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Firebelly (120)
- Lore of the Sun-Eater: Billowing Ash
Butcher (140)
- Cleaver
- Artefact: Gnoblar Blast Keg
- Lore of Gutmagic: Greasy Deluge
4 x Leadbelchers (160)
4 x Leadbelchers (160)
4 x Ironguts (220)
1 x Ironblaster (120)
1 x Ironblaster (120)
1 x Ironblaster (120)
1 x Ironblaster (120)
2 x Leadbelchers (80)
2 x Leadbelchers (80)
2 x Leadbelchers (80)
2 x Leadbelchers (80)
2 x Leadbelchers (80)
Tyrant's Gutguard (120)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 146
I don’t know why you’re running the Charm over Gruesome Trophy Rack. Other than that I like the updates. If you’re running 4 ironblasters and underguts then the trophy rack seems practically mandatory
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Completely new to Ogors and AoS in general but have been tinkering with lists pre-investing in units. Is this completely mental?
2 Gutguards seems excessive considering it’s quite a bleh battalion but I think the army is probably CP hungry, I’m already taking most of the associated units and the additional artefacts are useful.
Other route I’m considering is BCR Bloodgullet because I think Eurlbad is excellent and underrated.
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Kinda returning after a prolonged absence. Played as a kid about 25 years ago but only ever super casual stuff. Getting back into the game with some AoS Ogors.
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AoS 2 - Ogor Mawtribe Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Love that they have Glutttons listed first in the “biggest winners” section. Way to read the room on your own rules GW.
Gluttons are absolute trash. Unit coherency on top of losing the block purchase discount makes them absolutely dreadful. I am not sure why you’d ever take them over Ironguts or Leadbelchers who are both far more coherency resistant.
Their analysis on Leadbelchers is good though and I think overlooked in some early comments on here. They are an excellent unit for Unleash Hell