Hodges
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Posts posted by Hodges
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9 hours ago, PJetski said:
Using the Long Shot bonus does not prevent movement. The ability would tell you if it did that.
The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it.
The phase order is irrelevant - if they wanted it to only work in the shooting phase they would have worded it that way.
So according to the way you play this, you could move the unit in the movement phase every single turn, but then also get the +6” of range every hero phase for having not moved in the movement phase every single turn. And that doesn’t seem off to you?
Anyway I’m done. @PJetski you are completely incapable of having a discussion with, you have such a clear vested interest in the rule working a certain way. The fact that you used to find the rule ambiguous enough to play the conservative option speaks volumes. As does the fact that you are now entirely unwilling to even recognise the opposite point of view and resort to insults. Massively disingenuous.
On a different note, that Gotrek looks awesome @Mark Williams, big fan. List looks cool, bit of a Gav bomb to alpha. Let’s Gotrek get up the field a bit safer while they deal with all the models in their lines. Let us know how it goes.
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2 minutes ago, Kodos der Henker said:
interesting discussion but there is one argument I miss here
using the ability in the hero phase prevents moving in the movement phase
not moving = extended range
if you use the extra range in the hero phase, because you are not moving in the movement phase (which did not happened by that time but to meet the condition you can not move later)
using the extra range and moving is the one thing that needs some wired construction to work
That is interesting, hadnt considerd that. Question for PJetski and others that play 30" hero phase shooting - if you take the hero phase extra range, do you then lock yourself out of moving that turn? Or would you argue you can still move?
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4 hours ago, PJetski said:
It depends on how the ability is worded. Some abilities specify "in the combat phase" or "in the shooting phase" like Blood Stalker ability Heartseeker. There is an FAQ about this about this ability that says it does not happen when you activate them to shoot in the hero phase (eg. with Morathis command ability) because it specifically mentions when it activates.
Evocators Lightning Arc does not specify a phase, so it activates in every phase the unit attacks. They just put out an errata on that ability and kept the phase phrasing the same. If theywanted to change the ability to work only in the combat phase they could have done so at the time of printing the errata.
It is therefore fair and reasonable to assume that it is by design that some abilities are worded so that they only work in a specific phase, and other abilities work in any phase.
Units normally move in the movement phase, shoot in the shooting phase, charge in the charge phase, and fight in the combat phase, but there are plenty of rules in the game that allow units to make these actions outside their normal phase. The order of the phases is irrelevant when it comes to bonuses that apply regardless of the phase that is active.
Long Shot bonus range is active until the condition is met. It works in all phases, even if that phase comes before the unit would normally be selected to shoot.
I largely agreed with you up until the bolded part, thats just how you have decided to intepret this, theres no real rule backing that up. There is however a rule about the turn sequence and order of how things work.
You are correct that there are plenty of abilities that dont specify a phase and as such those abilities are available to use each phase. The Evoc faq does back that up, that they are happy to have the lightning work in every phase they are available to fight in. That still has nothing to do with bonuses from other phases occurring prior to their trigger. Its just a timing thing, you cant correlate two completely separate rules.
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On 10/4/2019 at 8:45 PM, PJetski said:
I play Longstrikes with 30" range in the hero phase. I used to play it 24" because I wasn't certain about the ruling and decided to take a more conservative approach, but I have been convinced otherwise.
7 hours ago, relic456 said:Can't you? The ability only asks one question "Did the unit move in the movement phase of the same turn?" The answer to this question is either Yes or No. There is no other unit in the game (that I'm aware of) that answers an If/Then statement with Maybe. There is only one condition for the If and that is "Did the unit move in the movement phase of the same turn?". In the hero phase, the answer to that question is No, and changes to Yes only if the unit moves in the movement phase. The fact that the movement phase hasn't happened yet is entirely irrelevant. Command abilities break the normal order of things and giving them the 6" is the most literal reading of the rule.
Arguing the point from another direction, what's the simplest rule interpretation? The answer being Yes/No is less complex than Yes/No/Null. Introducing a null state as an answer increases the complexity unnecessarily, which to me supports that its the incorrect interpretation.
Whether that's what GW intended is a completely different conversation. If it wasn't intended to give extra range in the hero phase, then they will probably reword it to say "When a model from this unit attacks with a missile weapon, it can add 6" to its range but cannot make a normal move for the rest of the turn." Or maybe, give them 30" base and then say if you make a normal move, reduce the range by 6".I get what you are saying, but let’s ask the question in a more practical way.
“Did you have a crash when you drove to work today”
If I asked you this when you were at work, you would have a very simple yes or no answer. If I asked you this in the morning what would your answer most likely be? “I don’t know, I haven’t made the drive yet”. The Longstrike question is the same, you can’t answer something that hasn’t happened yet.
I’ve quoted PJetski above to show that he was unsure. He is currently claiming that’s anyone who doesn’t see it his way is manipulating the game for their own benefit, but even he used to play it the 24” range way. That was his initial thoughts before having to be convinced it was 30”.
I would love it to be 30” but I can’t try and convince my opponent that’s right cause I just don’t see it. Asking your local TO is the way to go TBH, I don’t see it as ambiguous but obviously others do, so asking the TO is the simplest solution.
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On 10/27/2019 at 4:08 AM, PJetski said:
It's not a matter of opinion... if you read the rule then there is only one correct interpretation. Anyone arguing against that interpretation are deluding themselves and others because they dont like the way the rule works (or maybe they just like arguing).
It's a binary condition - your unit has either moved in the movement phase, or it hasn't. You can't make up a third state for a binary condition; that's not logical. If you haven't had a movement phase yet then the condition is satisfied and the bonus range applies. If they had some way to shoot in the enemy turn then they would also get the bonus range in that scenario.
If they didn't intend for it to work outside of the player shooting phase they would have specified "in the shooting phase" or "in the next shooting phase". Many abilities in the game are worded to work only work in a specific phase, and this is not one of them.
Play the rule as it is written instead of assuming they wrote it wrong. The book has been out for over a year - there has been more than enough time for them to issue an errata.
It is a matter of opinion. The fact that you came to your conclusion means it is, because it does not read that way. And it is not a binary decision, refer to the next post.
On 10/27/2019 at 4:20 AM, Mark Williams said:I'm a programmer by trade. Binary objects in databases often have a third null state until they've been asserted to a value. There's no lapse in logic here. If I saw this issue while I was writing a program, I would talk to the client or customer and get clarification on what they wanted to happen. I wouldn't assume it's one or the other, but in general if I couldn't get an answer I would side with the null option rather than assuming it's one of the binary states.
It's a valid interpretation of the rule. I'm conceding your point of view is also a valid conclusion. You're the one who is being close-minded here. I'm sorry that you won't or can't see it, and I'm at my wit's end on how to explain it more clearly to you.
100% this. You have to think about it as a logical progression, because the turn sequence is a linear progression. If the movement phase hasnt happened yet, you simply cant have fulfilled a requirement from it. As Mark says here, its a null state - you cant answer yes or no to the requirement its asking for. I get that you want it to work a certain way because this is your army and you want it to stay the best it can. FWIW Stormcast is the only army I own and I am starting to play Anvilstrike, so it would be in my best interests for it to work that way, but it just doesnt read the way you say it does.
On 10/27/2019 at 6:06 AM, FattBooM666 said:Every friend I play says is ok, been tournament and TO and players there say it's ok.
Why not use this energy elsewhere.. 🤷♂️
I messaged the TO of Cancon in Australia this very question and he said no it does not apply in the hero phase. And for reference, Cancon was ~200 players last year and sold out all 240 tickets in 12 hours this year. Its the single largest tournament in the world and he says no, so if you want data about TO decisions, this is probably the most important one available.
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I honestly cant understand how anyone could claim that Longstrikes benefit from +6" in the Hero phase.
Much like other war games, AOS has a rigid turn structure. Hero, Movement, Shooting etc. The Longstrike ability says "Add 6" to the range characteristic of the units Crossbows if it did not move in the movement phase of the same turn". So when you go to shoot, you apply the check - have I moved in the movement phase. Outside the obvious yes/no answer (for shooting in the shooting phase), there is a third answer - not applicable. If you havent had a movement phase this turn, you cannot say you havent moved in it - it simply hasnt happened yet. And if you cant answer the check that the rule asks for, then you cant use the rule.
And ive seen people claim that its an always on effect - the text does not support that. There are plenty of examples in this game of things in this game that are like that and this is not one of them. The rule could have said "this unit gains +6" to its range until its next movement phase, if it doesnt move this turn". It doesnt, it asks to check a requirement - that to me makes it clear as day that it isnt an always on ability.
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Got lost on the previous page, but how are people finding Gotrek in their SCE lists? Is he too expensive to support in an already expensive army?
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Fiddling around with the Anvils stuff, has anyone tried Gotrek in the list?
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Leaders
Lord-Relictor (100)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Artefact: Soulthief
- Prayer: Translocation
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies
Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 90
Expensive for sure, but I think the list supports him pretty well. Gives you a piece that can sit on an objective and murder anything that comes near. In return the list can snipe out things that can really threaten him. Not sure how he holds up compared to a unit of 10 Evocs plus 3 Aetherwings, keen to hear how he has gone for SCE players.
Im pretty keen to try out a few min units of Hurricane Raptors though. With the Longstrikes as the CA target, splitting up the 9 Hurricanes across three units gets 18 more shots that get +1 to hit. And also gives a lot more flexibility to drop around the board - a unit of 9 dropping in is a big target, 3 units scattered around is harder to deal with.
Thoughts?
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On 10/18/2019 at 2:29 AM, Marzillius said:
Check out my list on the previous page, it has a similiar idea going on. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.
Had a look, it looks pretty decent. Ive been trying to fit Desolators alongside Longstrikes rather than Hurricanes, but I think your build looks good. My gut says it would work better alongside Longstrikes though, they have the ability to pick off the things that can kill the Desolators, allowing them to run the table. As is, I would try get the Azyros in, the Desolators and Hurricanes both really like it given they hit on 4s.
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Ah okay gotcha, yeah the no LOS would be a pain for sure. Can be mitigated somewhat through my own port ability, but you are right about the lists limitation without a melee threat. I was working on a build that incorporated Desolators for the dual threat - solid enough shooting that you would CP it if needed, while bringing a real tank element to the table. Might work on that angle instead.
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Can you explain why? What is it that Sylvaneth are doing that auto beats this?
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So Anvilstrike is obviously all the rage and has been for quite a while. I was wanting to make my own version of the list, and after some tinkering this is what ive come up with. Interested to hear thoughts.
Lord Relictor - General, Translocation
Knight Azyros - Soulthief
3 x 5 Liberators
9 Raptor Longstrikes
9 Raptor Hurricanes
6 x 3 Aetherwings
2 x 10 Shadow Warriors
Extra CP
2000 points.
From what I can tell, the 9 Longstrikes and a Relictor are the core of the standard list, everything else is flexible. So the thinking behind this is I want to try and play a stronger scenario game than most Anvil lists do. I have 15 drops, so I will be able to see exactly where everything is going before deciding on anything important. I also have enough drops to put anything I want into the sky. I envision the Longstrikes starting on the board to double tap, with the Hurricanes up high. Hurricanes can pop down anywhere to obliterate a screen (also solid for dealing with Gotrek). Everything in the list is fast and can quickly adapt to shifting objectives. Shadow Warriors seem like the perfect compliment to Anvilstrike too - pop up on objectives, help finish off things nearly killed by Raptors. Deep striking the Hurricanes down behind a screen of Shadow Warriors will also help to keep them alive.
Im a little unsure on so many Aetherwings but want to try it out. So many fast small units should be a pain to deal with. Can also quite easily mess with big screens by charging either end of the line, annoyance game plan basically. Help to protect the Raptors along with the Shadow Warriors.
The negatives of my list I think are pretty obvious - there's zero melee threat and very few characters. If I lose the heroes, I lose the option to double shoot - which is obviously a big issue. The lack of a melee threat might be mitigated by the lists ability to shoot and stall, will test and see. If the Hurricane Raptors disappoint, they can be swapped out for 10 Evocs instead.
Thoughts on the list? Reckon it can work?
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16 hours ago, Lucur said:
Totally agree with @l1censetochill
Kittycators with Celestial Vindicators are really strong on offense (rerolling 1s to hit on charge, CA for +1 attack for all weapons, as opposed to the Lord Arcanum who only grants +1 claws attack). If you get a Chronomantic Cogs off, the Evocators can reroll saves and cast both their spells, supercharging them further. Knight Heraldor for run/retreat and charge is golden, can even enable a turn 1 charge. It also ensures your cats can get their charge bonusses after they got caught.
Lord Castellant is great for +1 save, imo if you invested this much in the unit, you might as well throw another 120 pts at their survivability
What i am most unsure of is the spell on the Lord Arcanum. I tend to run Thundershock because i reeeeaaaally want my cats alive, but then again the range is too short and once it's cast it's still a 4+ to work. Makes me think Stormcaller or Azyrite Halo in the future.
If you are worried about the Cats survivability, you could always try the Hysh Battlemage. 90 points, gets you a 5+ to cast spell that gives your unit -1 to be hit. Its pretty damn good for the points.
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Hey all, first post here. Have been getting into AoS a bit lately and am looking to try out a new SCE list, one that will hopefully be competitive. I know Anvilstrike is the way to go for competitive lists, but I don’t own those models yet so going to try this out next game.
Drakesworn Templar
- General: Staunch Defender
- Mount Trait: Thunderlord
- Gryph-feather Charm
- Arc Hammer
Lord Castellant
Knight Heraldor
Battlemage
- Hysh: Pha’s Protection
3x5 Libs
6 Desolators
40 Flagellants
3 Aetherwings
2000 points on the dot.
So the army is obviously meant to be a hard to shift brick. The Desolator unit isn’t anything new, Castellant and Heraldor both support it really well. Drakesworn makes the list largely for the bow, that buff to hit should be huge for the Desolators. Not sure which weapon to give him, might go the Axe to limit pile-ins.
The Flagellants are probably the most interesting part of the list. I searched through every ally option trying to find a screening unit that I wanted. I know most use Skinks, but I think Flagellants have a lot of game here. I’m running the Battlemage for Phas Protection, can give any of the three big blocks -1 to hit. 40 Flagellants take up a heap of space, and have enough bodies that the fleeing mortal wounds start to actually matter.
Between the -1 to hit spell, -1 to hit on the Drake, Staunch Defender and the Castellant, the central brick should hold up to most anything. The Libs will likely start in the sky every game and go after objectives while the brick holds the middle.
Thoughts on the list? Anyone tried a max Flagellant block with SCE?
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AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion
in Stormcast Eternals
Posted
Our reading of this was right after all. Shame, would have been a nice buff. Dont think it kills the list though.